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Author Topic: Jackhammer with MAc?  (Read 16908 times)

Equality

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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2013, 11:19 »

why you talk about those rare Jackhammer but not stormbolter pistol? It becomes rapidfire with 2*TH - 4 per burst. And anyone can assemble it. But still PISTOL not "rapidfire", and do not get 1-ammo-per-volley bonus from MAc. All right here? Why you think that Jackhammer must have such a bonus?
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Sereg

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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2013, 14:55 »

I have no experience with the storm bolter pistol =P I posted this after finding Jackhammer, being excited when I saw it worked with TH, then leveling up MAc and being sad when that didn't work.

If I'd had that experience with the storm bolter pistol, first, this thread would have been about that instead, and you would have just posted telling me about how the Jackhammer becomes rapidfire with TH but doesn't benefit from MAc, and asking why I thought storm bolters should get such a bonus while Jackhammer doesn't =P
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2013, 15:21 »

MAc is still really good, but I think it saying "Volleys only consume 1 bullet's worth of ammo" Is a great way of describing it if the Jackhammer/Stormbolter differences are rectified. After all, it already works with BFG10K. Who cares if it gets a little more buffed.
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2013, 15:27 »

That's generally the change I'd be requesting, yes. I assure you, this request isn't specific to Jackhammer - that's just the weapon I first noticed the lack of compliance with MAc on. I'm more or less wondering why MAc only seems to work on rifle type weapons, rather then rapid-fire weapons of any type, which seems to be the spirit of the Mastery.
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2013, 16:24 »

I think Jackhammer could use a nerfin'. Make it a slightly better nanoshrapnel assault shotty. Or something with less dice sides. Piercing damage type questionable.

Also.
It paints a giant target on the chest and a "shoot me" text bubble above your character
all enemies gain +5 to hit.

+1
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2013, 16:33 »

Hmm... I wouldn't be in favour of buffing MAc any more. It's extremely powerful as it is, but my main gripe with it is that it just makes no sense. If it was up to me, I'd make it so it automatically reloads rapid-fire weapons after each shot and gives a backpack-like bonus to ammo stacks to make it more useful. But I have a hunch that this might be the way it was originally conceived and that it wasn't working too well.
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Sereg

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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2013, 17:48 »

Hmm... I wouldn't be in favour of buffing MAc any more. It's extremely powerful as it is, but my main gripe with it is that it just makes no sense. If it was up to me, I'd make it so it automatically reloads rapid-fire weapons after each shot and gives a backpack-like bonus to ammo stacks to make it more useful. But I have a hunch that this might be the way it was originally conceived and that it wasn't working too well.

I think the issue with that is just that rapidfire weapons, especially with TH2 or F mods(to say nothing of both - chainfiring some of my heavily modded endgame weapons would consume ammunition at a rate almost on par with a BFG), just consume so much ammo that the only way to make a Rapid-fire Mastery trait that's actually strategically viable is to have that trait mitigate that high rate of ammo consumption(or not necessarily apply to rapid-fire weapons specifically, like Cateye - I don't consider Entrenchment to be strategically viable). While your solution sounds good in theory, the fact is that I've actually run out of energy cells while using MAc in its current form, if I get a series of successive levels that don't contain commandos/arachnos/ammo rooms. I would certainly agree that the old MAc(no ammo consumption at all) was overpowered(every rapid-fire weapon, even completely unmodded, functions as a Nanomachic? Holy shit), but I think the current form is just right.

I wouldn't consider making other rapid-fire weapons compliant with MAc a buff to the skill - rather, I see it as making the skill work as it's stated. I don't understand the point of overlooking rapid-fire weapons in a rapid-fire mastery - and while it's true that Jackhammer and storm bolters don't consume ammunition at quite the rate of a plasma rifle or variant, I still don't think it makes sense that they don't work with a master trait that's supposed to affect rapid-fire weapons.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 17:55 by Sereg »
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2013, 20:49 »

It paints a giant target on the chest and a "shoot me" text bubble above your character
all enemies gain +5 to hit.

I was thinking the opposite. Gives you a scrim-suit or camo armour. Slows your movement down by 5-10% but gives all enemies -2 to hit. Although, yours is funnier.

Onyx on a weapon? Your weapon becomes unbreakable and can be used in close-combat. "Spikes erupt from your weapon." Useful on RLs, shotties when there's barrels around and BFGs. Not sure what the stats should be though. 3d6, still using melee to hit, but no ammo usage? Punching with a pistol still counts as using the pistol, so it'd just take some coding to change the damage rate if the weapon was onyx modded.

Firestorm on an armour? Ummm..... Hellwave pack that goes off with the same probabilty of berserk going off with the Ber trait? Makes you tired though. Unless you went berserk at well. Probably a wee bit OP'd. Maybe just a +20 to fire and plasma resistances would be better.

Firestorm on a melee weapon? Super-high drop-off shotty blast with every attack (ie: a 1 square "ranged" attack with every melee attack, with 33% drop-off. Less damage at normal melee range (66%), 33% at range 2, 0% after that). Again, OP'd, but it sounds cool.

There's millions of things that could be done with weapon or armour packs on things they're not currently used on. Whether they need to be done is another matter, but it could make for some fun combos. Maybe.
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2013, 21:28 »

One way to make MAc less good is to make it so it only works if you have a ammo box prepared. Maybe to balance this have you gain the ability to create ammo boxes. (Or maybe ammo boxes automatically get made if you get enough ammo to make one?)
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2013, 03:47 »

Quote
Firestorm on an armour? Ummm..... Hellwave pack that goes off with the same probabilty of berserk going off with the Ber trait?
I just love the idea ! Destructive, fun, and useless... so firestormish !
No, seriously, I think it could be really great. (btw, the "probability" to proc berserk is fixed (IIRC, take 30% of your max HP before reduction in a single attack). The random aspect is on incoming attacks, not on zerk proc itself.)

@Sereg
Shotguns, guns, and knives are NOT rapids fire weapons... why do you keep thinking this ?
You could as well ask SoG to work with Jackhammer, since storm bolters and Jackhammer are both rapid fire weapons, but SoG only works with the former... it would be the same logic.

MAc is one of the few great masteries (melee, MSS and MAD seem to be the only other ones worth picking to me), so why buff it ? (note that even a bugfix would be a buff, as long as it makes the mastery better.)
If you manage to run out of ammo despite using this pick, you probably just didn't manage your inventory correctly. Personally, I think MAc should be nerfed and use at least 2 ammos per volley. I'd probably rather ask for half of the volley's shots.
Also, don't forget that MAc is not only an ammo saver. Unless you use a laser rifle, it wastes most bullets on walls. This might be the source of your ammo problems.
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2013, 04:52 »

The problem with Jackhammer is ...it is an ok weapon, but TH makes unusable.

If devs do not want to nerf Jack working with MAc, then maybe make TH not working with it? Or single shot like people proposed?
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Sereg

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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2013, 09:36 »

I just love the idea ! Destructive, fun, and useless... so firestormish !
No, seriously, I think it could be really great. (btw, the "probability" to proc berserk is fixed (IIRC, take 30% of your max HP before reduction in a single attack). The random aspect is on incoming attacks, not on zerk proc itself.)

@Sereg
Shotguns, guns, and knives are NOT rapids fire weapons... why do you keep thinking this ?
You could as well ask SoG to work with Jackhammer, since storm bolters and Jackhammer are both rapid fire weapons, but SoG only works with the former... it would be the same logic.

MAc is one of the few great masteries (melee, MSS and MAD seem to be the only other ones worth picking to me), so why buff it ? (note that even a bugfix would be a buff, as long as it makes the mastery better.)
If you manage to run out of ammo despite using this pick, you probably just didn't manage your inventory correctly. Personally, I think MAc should be nerfed and use at least 2 ammos per volley. I'd probably rather ask for half of the volley's shots.
Also, don't forget that MAc is not only an ammo saver. Unless you use a laser rifle, it wastes most bullets on walls. This might be the source of your ammo problems.

Evil, are you familiar with how the Jackhammer works? It fires in bursts. That is the one and only definition of a rapid-fire weapon. Just because it's also a shotgun doesn't make it any less of a rapid-fire weapon, just like the fact that the BFG 10k is a BFG doesn't make it any less of a rapid-fire weapon.

It fires rapidly. It doesn't get any more simple than that.

I didn't say anything about pistols(other then commenting on someone's mention of the storm bolter pistol), and I surely didn't mention knives. I'm not trying to generalize MAc to lots of weapon types - that would be just as foolish as you seem to think. I'm asking about a single very specific case involving a rapid-fire weapon that is affected by one rapid-fire trait already, but not another.

You also ask why buff it, and list the fact that the change is a bug-fix as irrelevant because it's still a buff. Look, if you think MAc is overpowered, great, start a new thread about rebalancing it - hell, maybe it needs it. We all know I'm a terrible player, and the only way I accomplish anything is cheese strats like AoOC, Scout Melee stairdives, and MAc 100/666 runs, so maybe it is abusable, and maybe it could use a change. But that's no reason not to fix a bug =P fix the bug and then rebalance it.

As far as wasting ammo, I do switch to a laser rifle as soon as I find one =P but since, until that point, plasma weaponry is still my primary damage output, I don't really have a choice about the misses, other then using a Hyperblaster(which, by the way, does increase the drain on ammo resources by basically doubling the amount of cells I use for a given time spent firing, so even this is a tradeoff of sorts) or A/S modding a nuke plasma rifle - I can't take Eagle Eye with MAc, which actually seems like a reasonable balance to a trait you consider powerful - sure, I get to use a lot less ammo, but I also can't mitigate the accuracy issues as well as someone without that master trait.

The problem with Jackhammer is ...it is an ok weapon, but TH makes unusable.

If devs do not want to nerf Jack working with MAc, then maybe make TH not working with it? Or single shot like people proposed?

While this isn't my ideal solution, I would agree that Jackhammer should at least be consistent with respect to rapid-fire traits - either it should work with all of them, or it should work with none of them. Obviously I'm partial to the former, but I would say the latter is still better then the current inconsistency. If the devs do indeed agree with Evil that it's not a rapid-fire weapon, somehow, then TH shouldn't work with it.

I also wouldn't mind a single-shot alternate fire being added in this case.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 09:39 by Sereg »
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2013, 10:11 »

Alright, everyone stop and take five.  You guys made me source dive to sort this out.  I really don't like doing that.  >.<

Here's what I think.  It is a bug.  The offending line in the source (dfbeing.pas:1181) specifically tries to isolate weapons that do more than one shot and is not a shotgun nor a pistol, but it gets overridden by presence of MBD or the presence of more than two shots.  I'm using "shot" here as "amount of ammunition consumed" -- it's the variable used in the code.

It's a bug.  I say so because of the specific isolation code for checking to see if the weapon is not a shotgun nor a pistol.  I suspect that the logical premise wasn't considered fully.

I will check with the person who edited that line to see what to do about it.
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2013, 10:34 »

And to think I was SO sure there will be nerfing involved when thelaptop shows up in this thread =)
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2013, 10:51 »

And to think I was SO sure there will be nerfing involved when thelaptop shows up in this thread =)

You were right. Discussion has been nerfed.
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