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Author Topic: Jackhammer with MAc?  (Read 15575 times)

Evilpotatoe

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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2013, 10:57 »

TH :  "With each weapon, you get an extra rapid shot"
MAc : "As long as you use your trusty rapid fire weapons..."

I agree, it's confuse, but imo, the idea is "rather" clear : TH makes you shoot faster with "any" weapon, while MAc only applies to "rapid fire" category.
I don't think having weapons of multiple categories is intended (not that I'm against it, but it seems "too complex", compared to usual doomRL design choices, so, a gun or shotgun shouldn't be considered rapid fire.)

What I wonder, though, is why TH gives extra shots to bolters or Jackhammer, while it doesn't increase the firing rate of a normal pistol or missile launcher.
THAT, seems inconsistent to me. (but I don't care much, since TH looks like a negative pick to me, outside of MAc build)


About rebalancing MAC, well... of course I'd like to, but there's so much things to rebalance/improve... what I'd need is not a thread, but rather a discussion with the devs about what they want to do with the next versions, so that I know if giving any feedback is worth it (I already made a few, but when I see that even critical LOS bugs don't seem to be on schedule, I don't think it's worth reporting all little ergonomy and design mistakes, since it might be perceived as free unconstructive critics, rather than attemps to make things improve in the right direction.)
Masteries need to be reworked, but lines of sight are a bigger priority to me, and gameplay needs to be improved too.
Cornershooting can be funny a moment, but I'd prefer a deeper gameplay, needing real  choices and strategy (more use of giftdropping, real ammo management, no "permawait behind a corner and you're done" anymore...) well, all of this needs a lot of work, plus testing, so I guess it will take time to progress.

The best gameplay suggestion I can remember atm was a recent one : making monster's projectiles work like lost souls, so that we can dodge them (and, in counterpart, nerf that stupid cornershooting). I think this would be a great step to an improved -and more doomish- gameplay, but btw, this would have BIG impacts on the current game.
My first reaction when I read that suggestion was "hey, it won't be possible to finish some level damageless anymore, that's stupid !". But I quickly changed my mind, and wondered : isn't the possibility to complete the game damageless WAY more stupid ?

As you can see, it's a deep and complex topic. :)
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Klear

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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2013, 11:16 »

What I wonder, though, is why TH gives extra shots to bolters or Jackhammer, while it doesn't increase the firing rate of a normal pistol or missile launcher.
THAT, seems inconsistent to me. (but I don't care much, since TH looks like a negative pick to me, outside of MAc build)

The way I understand TH, it represents Doomguy's willingness to keep the trigger pressed just a bit longer, whether the monster he is shooting at is dead or not. That obviously doesn't carry over to the non-automatic weapons.

That's also the reason why I don't like MAc very much - I can't find a similar rationalisation. But that's be. I prefer flavour to gameplay to a big extend.
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Sereg

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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2013, 12:11 »

TH :  "With each weapon, you get an extra rapid(emphasis added to quote) shot"
MAc : "As long as you use your trusty rapid fire weapons..."


What I wonder, though, is why TH gives extra shots to bolters or Jackhammer, while it doesn't increase the firing rate of a normal pistol or missile launcher.
THAT, seems inconsistent to me.


Because TH says an extra rapid shot, implying that, for this ability to take effect, the weapon needs to have rapidfire capability. I agree the wording is not as clear as it could be, but that's what I get from it.

About rebalancing MAC, well... of course I'd like to, but there's so much things to rebalance/improve... what I'd need is not a thread, but rather a discussion with the devs about what they want to do with the next versions, so that I know if giving any feedback is worth it (I already made a few, but when I see that even critical LOS bugs don't seem to be on schedule, I don't think it's worth reporting all little ergonomy and design mistakes, since it might be perceived as free unconstructive critics, rather than attemps to make things improve in the right direction.)
Masteries need to be reworked, but lines of sight are a bigger priority to me, and gameplay needs to be improved too.
Cornershooting can be funny a moment, but I'd prefer a deeper gameplay, needing real  choices and strategy (more use of giftdropping, real ammo management, no "permawait behind a corner and you're done" anymore...) well, all of this needs a lot of work, plus testing, so I guess it will take time to progress.

The best gameplay suggestion I can remember atm was a recent one : making monster's projectiles work like lost souls, so that we can dodge them (and, in counterpart, nerf that stupid cornershooting). I think this would be a great step to an improved -and more doomish- gameplay, but btw, this would have BIG impacts on the current game.
My first reaction when I read that suggestion was "hey, it won't be possible to finish some level damageless anymore, that's stupid !". But I quickly changed my mind, and wondered : isn't the possibility to complete the game damageless WAY more stupid ?

As you can see, it's a deep and complex topic. :)

Yeah, there's a lot more discussion that needs to go on beyond this rather minor change to a single mastery and weapon. Like you said, there are definitely some more urgent priorities. I don't know if I entirely agree with you about making changes so significant that they completely remove core strategies - that might be more appropriate for a mod, in my opinion. Still, it's not as though those changes are contrary to the spirit of the game, so if it happens, it happens, and I'll learn to deal with it, just like I'll have to deal with the dual angel rebalancing that's all but inevitable in the next release.

Alright, everyone stop and take five.  You guys made me source dive to sort this out.  I really don't like doing that.  >.<

Here's what I think.  It is a bug.  The offending line in the source (dfbeing.pas:1181) specifically tries to isolate weapons that do more than one shot and is not a shotgun nor a pistol, but it gets overridden by presence of MBD or the presence of more than two shots.  I'm using "shot" here as "amount of ammunition consumed" -- it's the variable used in the code.

It's a bug.  I say so because of the specific isolation code for checking to see if the weapon is not a shotgun nor a pistol.  I suspect that the logical premise wasn't considered fully.

I will check with the person who edited that line to see what to do about it.

Thanks for checking that out - explains why BFG 10k still works, but Jackhammer and Storm Bolter don't. I'm interested in how that ends up being dealt with.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 12:13 by Sereg »
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2013, 14:46 »

You were right. Discussion has been nerfed.
... or was it thelaptop himself, who was nerfed? ;)
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2013, 18:54 »

... or was it thelaptop himself, who was nerfed? ;)
When it comes to nerfing, thelaptop is like Chuck Norris. He can nerf himself. Moreover, he can nerf himself so much, that he would become overnerfed. From being overnerfed, he can nerf himself even more, so he would become undernerfed - and overpowered as a result.
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #50 on: June 11, 2013, 19:37 »

So I guess thelaptop has at last attained the status of a Memetic Badass. It's just as well, with 2dev rarely posting here lately...
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #51 on: September 01, 2013, 03:37 »

Alright, this is flogging a dead horse, but I don't care.  =P

I've meditated hard on this issue, and I think I have a solution.  But first, the explanation:

"Rapid shot weapons" are different from "chain-fire capable" weapons.  Rapid shot here should refer to anything that fires more than some predefined firing rate, which in the code is approximated by the "shots" property.  By default, pistols and shotguns don't count as rapid shot weapons because they fire at most one shot (pistols) or two (double shotgun), and so they will not be affected by the TH bonus.  Pistols do get the TH bonus when MBD is in play -- that's not a problem.

Now comes the mess: Pancor Jackhammer.  It's basically a fully automatic shotgun, designed for fast disposal of any S.O.B. that happens to be within close range.  As a "fully automatic" weapon then, TH ought to apply to it, since "fully automatic" means "rapid shot" (see also GCB at not single-shot mode).  But this leads to the case of huge ammo consumption (5 per firing action with 2xTH).  Thankfully, they did state here that the Jackhammer is capable of less-than fully auto shots through careful triggering.

And that's the fix I've applied, to be tested of course in 0.9.9.8 beta when we get there.  Like the GCB, alt-reload will allow you to "decide" to relax your triggering finger (fire only 1 shot) or tense your triggering finger (fire the regular 3 shots and thus be eligible for TH).  The time cost of selecting how hard you are going to squeeze your trigger is nominal and relatively negligible compared to GCB firing mode changes (it's mental rather than something you need to alter on the weapon).  I have also taken the liberty to increase the max ammo count to 10 to further replicate the "true' Pancor Jackhammer, and to make it slightly more ammo chewing for all-out 2xTH fully auto shotgun fire.

Okay, it might not be a fix after all but a hack.  But let's see if this works out better to make the Jackhammer an awesome weapon worthy of being a unique.
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #52 on: September 01, 2013, 07:50 »

Heh, guess that means I've gotta change up the Jackhammer in my Zdoom mod then.
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #53 on: September 01, 2013, 08:07 »

Nah, wait till it is officially released first.  Currently that change is in the repository and not out yet.  It will require testing at the 0.9.9.8 beta, which is uh not going to be out that soon.  =)
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2013, 16:30 »

So it works with TH properly now? Wow. 5 shot shotty. Wow.

But I take it that it doesn't work with MAc still? Either way, I want to find one in 0.9.9.8. Soley for wasting shells (and shell boxes). Thanks thelaptop. It was always what I considered the god-tier shotgun, now it's just even more-so, as well as being snazzy in even more builds. That's good hack-fixing :)
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2013, 18:28 »

But I take it that it doesn't work with MAc still?
Yes, it still doesn't work with MAc.  MAc affects chain-fire weapons but TH affects rapid-fire weapons -- see my previous post for the differences.

I've ameliorated the massive ammo consumption with my Alt-Reload fix/hack.  Thank me only after testing if the fix/hack works well enough.  =P
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2013, 01:42 »

Yes, it still doesn't work with MAc.  MAc affects chain-fire weapons but TH affects rapid-fire weapons -- see my previous post for the differences.

I've ameliorated the massive ammo consumption with my Alt-Reload fix/hack.  Thank me only after testing if the fix/hack works well enough.  =P

Just a quickie since i'm bogged deep in study atm - I'd like to see the jackhammer apply all shots before knockback, if that's possible at all.

Now THAT would be awesome.
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2013, 01:50 »

Not happening.  The code to alter knockback is too annoying.

Next!
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Aki

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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2013, 05:07 »

Not happening.  The code to alter knockback is too annoying.

Next!

How about not making the damage due to dropoff drop as far? A real life shotgun doesn't work like that and that's what the jackhammer is based off.

The jackhammer needs a widdle buff ;_;
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2013, 06:26 »

Test the current modifications when 0.9.9.8 beta comes out first before suggesting anything else regarding the Jackhammer.
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