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[OldSpider]

He can nitpick every single bullet he picks up off the floor.  He tediously counts the number of bullets in the ammo chain he found alongside that poor bastard's intestines.  He can reload a combat shotgun in the blink of an eye.  But... he can't fathom how to reload an ammo box.

This is unacceptable.  This is the future.

If you have the ammo box in your hand, switch to it using 'x', then 'r' to reload.  It should be like reloading a high-capacity weapon; it takes a little while.

[Sereg]

Sounds like a good idea to me.

And lol at your assessment of doomguy's ammo management skills.

[skarczew]

A good proposal, both about switching and reloading.

[thelaptop]

But to be had, ammo boxes should take a pretty long time to reload, considering how tightly-packed things are.  So for things like the Ammo Chain, we are looking at reload times of >3.5s (that's the reload time of a Minigun which holds 200 rounds).

Does this suggestion mean that one can only reload empty ammo boxes that are obtained from already spent ammo boxes, or does it suggest allowing empty ammo box drops and/or an assembly to create an ammo box (no idea how this can be done without being too "weird")?

[OldSpider]

There should be a minimum time to crack open an ammo box, which should also apply to U-nloading one.  Unloading is always easier than loading, but agree on the time requirements.  You should be able to reload no matter how much is left in the box.  High capacity weapons are normally made for quick reloads and an ammo box isn't one of those things.

Since mods are magic I don't see why you couldn't apply a bulk mod and technical mod directly to some ammo and get an ammo box, and that'd require wizkid 1, which seems to make some sense.  ...carrying around your magic bullet modded with tech...

[thelaptop]

That would make WK more OP than it already is, and to be had, for all the magic-ness of the mods, there's been an unwritten rule that they are only applicable to boots, armour and weapons, and on nothing else.

I have a slight modification to the suggestion.  We allow the stuffing of one [part] of a stack into the ammo box at one time, and make that cost something like 5.0s or something fairly large.  The cost of that preloading of that stack of rounds is defrayed completely by the much faster reload time of the gun.  This has the advantage of giving the loooong reload times of the ammo box needed for balance, as well as breaking it down into manageable chunks (you choose how many stacks you want to stuff into the ammo box at one time).

[Evilpotatoe]

If I read correctly, once you found your first shell box, you're supposed to clear every level (save cybie) with it, and reload it everytime ? Sounds quite easy & boring to me.


Still, there's one thing I don't get :
Why do ammo boxes make reloading faster rather than slower ? O_o

Without the forums or wiki, I would never have understood the main use of boxes, since I, naively, tought they were used to store ammunitions.

From my point of view, ammo boxes shouldn't be usable directly, they should need to be refilled/unloaded depending on your needs.
Btw, considering how the game currently works, they would be most of the time useless, but the real problem is that we currently don't need to manage ammo.

[OldSpider]

I think it's under the premise that an ammo box is just like an ammo chain: it's designed to use as little extra weight as possible and every shot you fire dismantles part of the ammo chain itself, so there's nothing to reload.  If you had the time and equipment you could make a new one or actually reload it, but that'd be out of the scope of this game.  So, maybe reloadable ammo boxes isn't such a great idea after all.

In that sense, an ammo box isn't a magazine; rather, it's a clip, which is just like the big ammo chains.  As far as I know you can't easily reload a clip like you would a magazine and bulk mods are meant to facilitate bigger magazines.

Personally, I think DoomRL should switch over to magazines.  For the most part, clips are WWI old school and not realistic in this setting (the future!).  Don't call it a 'box'.  Call it a 'magazine', because that's what it's supposed to mimic.  You use up a magazine, toss it out, and pop in a new magazine.  Otherwise you're limited to manually pumping in rounds.  In that case, bulk mods shouldn't apply to all weapons in the same way; rather, something like a pistol which uses a magazine must have magazines and something like a combat shotgun must be manually reloaded as if it were itself a magazine (which it kinda is, but with a trigger and iron sight built into it).

[thelaptop]

Maybe not in this incarnation of DoomRL -- it tries to be rather faithful to the source material.

But the next incarnation of DoomRL... sounds like a good idea.

[OldSpider]

Wait, what?  How is DoomRL faithful to the source material?  Special and unique weapons and assemblies, destructible doors, mod packs, inventory items, different monster types don't attack each other, randomized levels (or it wouldn't be roguelike, of course), no key cards or key skulls, no crusher traps... by my aching elbow.  The very idea that DoomRL is faithful to the source material (what, fan fics?) is like saying Mario Kart tries desperately to be just like Super Mario Bros.  Here I've sweated blood to point out a logical error and you... *sniff* ...you humor me with more fallacies.

[Klear]

It's faithful in atmosphere, not an exact copy...

[OldSpider]

LOL  It's no where near an exact copy and is lacking in atmosphere.  It's a great game, but don't sillify my love.

[Fanta Hege]

Ammo boxes are pretty OP with the reload speed they offer if they were reloadable aswell.

Maybe an advanced trait for reloader 2 that would allow you to reload the ammoboxes or something could work though

[Sambojin]

I must sound like a stick-in-the-mud with all my "everything is fine just the way it is", but ammo-boxes are if anything, too powerful right now.

They up your ammo carrying capacity AND can provide fast reloads. They even "sort of" give you an extra inventory slot for ammo, at the cost of a quick-switch weapon slot. They're already very good.

They're also "designed" to be used up. If we can reload them, no matter how long the reload time is, we will have all those abilities for the entire game. It will essentially make all characters have incredibly low reload times, whenever they want it, for the rest of the game. It reduces flexibility of weapon switching slightly, but a very low reload time that doesn't ever get used up is very powerful for most builds.

Ammo boxes are already good. Giving them the ability to be reloaded will make them "too good". They'll be the go-to item for every game, more powerful than uniques, simply due to their flexibility.

They're fine the way they are (or possibly too good).

[OldSpider]

Chain guns are the carbines of classic Doom.  There were machine guns brought over from Wolfenstein, but those were for the Nazis in the special levels, so using magazines doesn't make any sense for this setting.  Chain guns shouldn't hold ammo; they aren't supposed to or they wouldn't be called 'chain' guns.  They should be limited to chains, and what I know of them from modern times is what I've already explained: they're long clips and are broken down as they're fired.

Using 'ammo boxes' to facilitate lower reload times for pistols and shotguns doesn't make any sense.  It would probably increase the reload times and again, magazines don't match the setting.

Rocket boxes don't make any sense, either.  It would make more sense if they used some sort of clip, but that's what the missile launcher is for.

[shark20061]

Chain guns are the carbines of classic Doom.  There were machine guns brought over from Wolfenstein, but those were for the Nazis in the special levels, so using magazines doesn't make any sense for this setting.  Chain guns shouldn't hold ammo; they aren't supposed to or they wouldn't be called 'chain' guns.  They should be limited to chains, and what I know of them from modern times is what I've already explained: they're long clips and are broken down as they're fired.

Using 'ammo boxes' to facilitate lower reload times for pistols and shotguns doesn't make any sense.  It would probably increase the reload times and again, magazines don't match the setting.

Rocket boxes don't make any sense, either.  It would make more sense if they used some sort of clip, but that's what the missile launcher is for.

Sometimes realism has to take a backseat to entertainment and balance.  It's a matter of priorities.

As far as balance is concerned, the fear of ammo boxes becoming overpowered this way (as many others in this thread have stated) are, in my opinion, well-founded.  It's an interesting idea but it needs tweaking, or the way ammo boxes work will need tweaking.

[OldSpider]

I just provided the catalyst for tweak.  I am a programmer, so I know what that may involve, but I also know modding is most likely not how it will happen.  All it takes is for the programmers of this project (which isn't me; I already have my own projects) to make a few alterations to the code.

[Thiebs]

The old thread had timed out, so here goes: The general consensus was that making shell boxes/rocket boxes/ammo chains re-loadable would make them broken, considering the already-significant advantages of quicker reloading times and extra carrying capacity. I fully agree. However, it occurred to me that with a slight re-flavoring and a bit of balance tweaking, you could change ammo boxes to something like extended magazines or some-such, and add new 'ammo box' item that would provide significant extra storage, be re-loadable, but not be usable directly like the current boxes are. Basically, you'd make ammo boxes re-loadable at the cost of splitting them into two separate items.

P.s.: Don't really know the protocol for continuing locked threads, so feel free to delete this if it's inappropriate here, I won't take offense. Thanks!

[emulord]

Oh I get it!
You equip a stack of ammo in the prepared slot. It gets used like the current ammo boxes get used now for faster reloading.
Ammo boxes have a capacity that can be unloaded/reloaded.

You need a way to reload objects in inventory/prepared for this tho. (F)ill?

If the ability to speed up ANY reloading is too powerful (probably is), then make a quick reloading "ammo belt/magazine" item instead.

[thelaptop]

If you have something significant to contribute, you PM either Malek or I with details of the thread to unlock, and we'll do so if it is indeed relevant.

Edit: Unlocked and merged.

[Thiebs]

Thanks, thelaptop! I'll do so in the future.
(By the way, are those boots named after you?)

[thelaptop]

Boots?  What boots?  Don't know what you are talking about.

* thelaptop puts on his boots and prepares to stomp on spammers-to-be[/url]

[LuckyDee]

I must admit I've never met thelaptop in person, but I have a hard time believing he looks like this:



No way he has three legs.

[thelaptop]

Ahem.  Stay on topic people -- this thread is on reloadable ammo boxes, not a discussion on my footwear.

=.=

[Malek Deneith]

Of course he doesn't have three legs. That'd be silly, laptops don't have legs at all.

[LuckyDee]

Ahem.  Stay on topic people -- this thread is on reloadable ammo boxes, not a discussion on my footwear.

Ah, good, since I do have an opinion on this:

add new 'ammo box' item that would provide significant extra storage, be re-loadable, but not be usable directly like the current boxes are.

So in fact you take a stack of ammo, increase the capacity and rename it? The effect you're describing has more in common with the backpack than with the ammo boxes as they are now.
That's not to say that there isn't any merit to your idea, but with the effect you have in mind it might be better to leave ammo boxes out of the equation altogether and find a new name for this.

[Thiebs]

Actually, the renaming is the key there. That's where all the argument started: the current item is the ammo box, which doesn't make sense for what it does (quick reloads). The extra ammo storage is a big help, especially for the build-challenges that have a hard time getting the backpack, though obviously that'll be the bigger deal if you can get it. Anyway, the better ammo storage is what a lot of people use ammo boxes for, which is great, but the inability to reload them is counter-intuitive, since it's pretty easy for a lay-man to stick shells in a box. And so splitting the ammo box in two seems the logical course: an item (say, an 'auto-loader magazine' or some such futuristic gibberish) that is disposable, non-refillable, and increases decreases reload time (possibly also stores slightly more ammo, too, though not for sure), and another item (ammo box, ammo case, etc.) that's sole purpose is storage of ammo, which it does well, but requires loading and unloading manually to be used. Make the two less likely to spawn individually, so you aren't flooded with stupid ammo-thingies all the time, but slightly more likely to find in total than the current, so as to off-set the disadvantage of breaking a good item in two. You could even limit carrying to only one ammo box or only one of each type, if it's needed, though the 'auto-loader' one would be better off unhindered, since it's disposable. Sorry if I rant...

[LuckyDee]

increases reload time

Typo?

Sorry if I rant...

You've come to the right place. And in fact, the more you disclose, or think out loud possibly, the better this idea is starting to sound to me.

I must say though, that apart from shellboxes (for the City of Skulls or Abyssal Plains) I generally only use ammo boxes as extra capacity, not for decreased reload time - I can usually time my reloads to not have to worry about the amount of time they take. If a split were made between boxes and auto-loaders, I'd be more inclined to use either.

[Thiebs]

an item (say, an 'auto-loader magazine' or some such futuristic gibberish) that is disposable, non-refillable, and increases reload time

This should have been worded a bit differently. What I was saying, is that the half of the current ammo boxes that is for disposable quck-reloading should be a separate item from the one that is for extra storage. Which you probably already gathered. But to clarify, that wasn't a typo, so much as just poorly worded. To summarize: My proposal= 2 new items replacing old ammo box. 1st item is for quick reloads, it's disposable, and it's non-refillable. 2nd item is used strictly for storage, holds more ammo, and is refillable, but takes time to load and unload.

I know I'm repeating myself, I just didn't want any confusion. :)

[LuckyDee]

But to clarify, that wasn't a typo ... 1st item is for quick reloads, it's disposable, and it's non-refillable

So it was a typo: you don't want it to increase the reload time, but to decrease it.

I just didn't want any confusion. :)

[Thiebs]

GAH!!!! Okay, my bad. DECREASE RELOAD TIME, or INCREASE RELOAD SPEED. One of those things was the things I did intend to speak of.
Fixed the original error.