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[TFoN]

With the addition of the yellow Foresters and the light-green Treants, I have a feeling some of the horror-gore, and indeed the futile feel of the game has been lost.
Still, I don't believe this started with them, as the Wraiths have a very light color as well, which is only strengthened by the typically present white Skeletons.
On the other hand, I haven't felt this way at all about Defilers and their light-green Spores.

Here's what I figure's the case and why:
As a rule, monster colors, and possibly game colors, if they were dark, warm colors, draining the environment of light, would also psychologicaly drain the player of a sense of tranquility and ease.
On the other hand, if once this effect has settled the game progresses  into more psychodelic color mixings (enter Defilers and Spores), it could really start playing with the mind of the player. The most extreme changes would have to happen whenever the game is considered "new territory" for most players, at advanced levels of play. If my guess's correct, that would give a sense of being lost, effectively in a sea of colors.
Now, why bright Spores but not bright Wraiths? The way I see it, the undead, for the most part, are classic dark beings, shrouded with emptiness. Demons and their ilk, on the other hand, have much more room for being mind-numbingly alive, in ways a natural mind would never want to precieve, let alone be.

I'm really interested in your opinions, so please, shoot. Consider that there're the ideas and opinions on one hand, and whether they should be used in the game or not on the other.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Yyyh, I know, I know. The problem here is the thin border between Mood and playablility. Here's the full list of ANSI colors:

Black - unusable for monsters :/
White - to bright as you noted, maybe for special cases
LightGray - as above, but I think it's ok for skeletons?
Green - bad because there's a lot of green on the terrain
Red - bad because monsters will be unrecognizable on blooded terrain
Cyan - too light for our mood
LightRed - too light for our mood
LightCyan - too light for our mood
LightBlue - too light for our mood
LightMagenta - too light for our mood
LightGreen - too light for our mood
Yellow - too light for our mood

That leaves us with
Blue
DarkGray
Magenta
Brown

Not much colors isn't it?

Especialy that the more dangerous monsters should somehow be "highlited" for players convieniece sake...

Any ideas how to solve that?

[Adral]

I'll give my own valoration for colours, just in case they serve for something:

Black - unusable for monsters :/

Error. Certain stealthy monsters might work verywell as black characters. It's like true stealth. This should be a fairly uncommon monster, though, so as to avoid having the player look for black dots everywhere. Maybe to compensate a message should warn the player when it appears ("You notice a ZOMFGSTEALTH0RPWNER")

White - to bright as you noted, maybe for special cases
LightGray - as above, but I think it's ok for skeletons?

They serve just right for skeletons and/or bone monsters. Maybe a special white-armoured character, otherwise avoid.

Green - bad because there's a lot of green on the terrain
Red - bad because monsters will be unrecognizable on blooded terrain

This may serve the same purpose that a black character (i.e. Stealth). Green for a forest-camouflaging monster, and red for a bloody beast of sorts. They should also be fairly uncommon, of course.

Cyan - too light for our mood
LightRed - too light for our mood
LightCyan - too light for our mood
LightBlue - too light for our mood
LightMagenta - too light for our mood
LightGreen - too light for our mood
Yellow - too light for our mood

A character that changes between all these colors might just as well represent the essence of pure chaos. Also they might work for some friendly monster (like a elf or something like that). Otherwise, I'll avoid them unless they "fit" with the description of the monster.

About highlighting, I'd use one of the above colours to highlight special monsters, and I do mean special :P Or maybe swap between the "normal" and "light" version of the colour so as to call player attention.

[TFoN]

(Well well, I've outdone myself - this is one long post!)

Ahh, well, with such a short list of colors, I understand the problem.

Black - unusable for monsters :/

As a player of LDC, I've learned 2 things: one is that shadows (black spot) work just fine, and the other is that mimics could make for a great thesis in psychology: (I assume you've played it, but just in case, and for others) in UI terms they act just like any other monster, so that when you 'x'-look at them and '?'-get details on them they'll give one of several amusing monster descriptions, but since the icon used is the same as that of some dungeon item, be it cash, consumables, normal equipment or an artifact, they'll fool you almost every single time!
You're dealing with human players, and only a real pyscho'll bother to check every single tile for tricks - and since this game's ment, the way I see it, to play on that human's feeling of security, encourage him to turn into that psycho! Let him fear the red dots (I'll explain in the monster thread)! Of course, this is only good to the point that keeps the game played, but on the other hand, these kinds of things might only make it better.

Also NetHack's Stormbringer's a good example - it doesn't give warning on the attack of a friendly. Mostly that's harmless, until you screw-up.

Cyan - too light for our mood
LightRed - too light for our mood
LightCyan - too light for our mood
LightBlue - too light for our mood
LightMagenta - too light for our mood
LightGreen - too light for our mood
Yellow - too light for our mood

Not if you're going psychodelic like I had suggested. In that case, these colors'll get to people for the same reason clowns are such a major focus of phobias.
But, as I had said, the player'll first have to allready be in a dark mood, which will be created throughout the early-, mid- ,and possibly as far as late- game by using a "normal" dark environemt.

That leaves us with
Blue
DarkGray
Magenta
Brown

And together with at least 52 characters, that's enough (if not perfect, as more may be too much) for a dark, gloomy environment.

Especialy that the more dangerous monsters should somehow be "highlited" for players convieniece sake...

"Screw the players" :) This game's supposed to be good, that's obvious, but it can be good because it's balanced and comfortable, or it can be good because it accesses a player's every inch of personal space for an immersive sense of panic and fear combined with the character's ability to deal with that fear if he would just try - that's the ultimate fantasy for a dreamer, gamer or book-reader: that whatever tool they're using to expand their world will not be so timid as to say "sorry, I didn't want to surprise you".

Indeed, I might be missing something terribly, and people just want a complex puzzle - that's what's great about NetHack - but I really think that since the unique upside of DoomRL seems to be a dark atmosphere with growls and bloodstains, taking several steps in that direction can only help.
And, above all, this game isn't real-time, so very few things can't be thought through effectively. In the event that you find yourself in a terrible position that could be changed if you were calmer (like checking the nearby tiles), you can always take a break, just like you can always close the book (just as they can read the end and go "ha, it didn't scare me one bit!", savescumming et al :) ). But the fact is that most keep reading when shit gets rough ^^

All this, BTW, opens a very interesting option: a challenge based on turning off the 'l'ook mode.


So yeah, I tend to agree with Adral's post, though I think stealth-warnings are only good if the monster may outright destroy you otherwise and/or if stealth is UI-independent and constant, and friendly characters should be in the mood of that char, which is likely low as its home's being invaded by demons, so dark is still good. Being a '@' should be enough. It could then even revert to the char's race icon when in berserk mode to signify friend-foe blindness.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

TFoN, you've got many good points. And I think I have an idea for a compromise -- The standard colors would be dark, and I'd leave a option in the ini-file for "fruitsalad" coloring. This way anyone who doesn't care for the mood could turn on the fruit salad set of colors... how does that sound?

[Blade]

Mmmmmm.... Fruit saaalaaad!... Sounds great...

To the point - it's good. For me this funny light green Foresters not becomes less serious if they are light green, not bloody red.

[TFoN]

TFoN, you've got many good points. And I think I have an idea for a compromise -- The standard colors would be dark, and I'd leave a option in the ini-file for "fruitsalad" coloring. This way anyone who doesn't care for the mood could turn on the fruit salad set of colors... how does that sound?

Sounds good. Though I'm all for a real terror of a game, I recognize that might not be the same for everyone ^^

[Nentator-H]

crap...i've really got to go but had this idea,you know for those special,powerful scary monsters that the player should take one look at and go "I've just soiled myself"..how hard would it be to code in this......
......'Z' is thudding towards the pc,in each space adjacent to 'Z' it is lit up a different colour...
                      .  .  .
                      .  z  .[so pc sees a powerful nme getting closer easily and]
                      .  .  . [it would add to the atmosphere alot for that nme?]

[TFoN]

I'm not sure I understand, will those surrounding colours be changing as he moves, or will there be one colour per adjacent space?

[Nentator-H]

I guess it depends,it does'nt really matter...just that where ever it moves the adjacent tiles change colour,say its a greater demon of demonical fire,a dweller of the 666 depths of fiery dimensions,all the surronding tiles could be red whereever it moves(a random mix of red & orange would be better)...maybe if it passes by a tree the tree gets all burnt up,hey,and due to the extreame heat it could give pc a negative attribute,or make him thirsty!

[TFoN]

This makes sense only if it fits the monster description (no shadow lord should have a multicoloured aura), in which case it's a great idea, but should be suggested in the monster suggestions thread.

[Nentator-H]

yeah i know,srry.Say there is a greater green monster,the surrounding tiles could be light green or a demon of ice would be surrounded by light blue etc..