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Author Topic: Crawl  (Read 46556 times)

Karry

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Re: Crawl
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2007, 01:56 »

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because many of his useful abillities can be used only with specific items which you probably don't get until dungeon 3rd or so.
You dont make any sense. Dungeons are not numbered, so whats stopping you ?

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2 villages? A shop with food rations only and a black market? And where am i supposed to sell items?
Okay, so you dont want to sell items to black market. CRAWL : no villages ? nowhere to sell items ? most items are useless ? even ring of invisibility is absolutely damn useless ?

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There's no difference in an assasin and a stalker?
Nope.

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No difference in playing style?
Not really, no. The only difference in playing style is between "Fighter group" and "Mage group".

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No difference between playing an Ice Elementalist and a Wizard, or a Warper?
None that would actually matter.

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No difference between a kobold assasin and a mummy necromancer?
Not really. The only difference is that one starts with a spellbook. Thats all.

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O'realy?
Yeah, realy.

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after many many tries you get really better at it, so that you really see your mistakes (if you ever thought that you dont make mistakes, and you always die because of unfair dungeons, come on, dont be ridiculous).
Hmm, okay, i wasnt ridiculous in the first place, but whatever. The difference from ADoM is - there is always a way out in there. You get warned when you venture into some really dangerous places, there are usually some ways of fooling monsters, or means of escape, or something. In CRAWL - okay, you go around the corner on level 1 and meet face to face with an Ogre. Thats it. There is nothing you can do to it, and 99% of time you cant escape it. You're dead. Or you get killed with a dagger of electrocution on the same level 1. Still fair ? Or you find a jackal pack on the same level 1.

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But unlike Adom every game is different, maybe because of no quests or something else... beside the replayability is Soooo damn high, so that even the difficulty don't mean a thing...
Uh, whats so different about it ? Every game is the same. You go around killing things, there is nothing else, nothing to do, nothing to see, its just mindnumbingly plain and boring...

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I agree with Supernaut, maybe a class doesn't mean "anything" (it does mean, in the early game, and some classes are MUCH easier than others, also keep in mind that your stats depend on your class, so it's important for the late game too), but race does mean, and a lot at that.
Compare with ADoM, where race matters, and a class also matters. The choices you make at the start actually mean something.
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dpeg

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Re: Crawl
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2007, 07:38 »

The problem with Crawl are the early levels, although this is being corrected step by step by their development team with Stone Soup variant. It's much easier to survive (for me, at least) in SS than in "normal" Crawl.

This process will be continued a bit, but note that survivability is rather high now... The OOD monsters are not a bug.

Hey, when i started SS i have chosen a ghoul fighter and the first things i noticed were :
1. All the dice rolls, to hit, and damage were shown, which greatly destroyed the whole pseudo realism in game
2. I played with some "Wizard mode" on but i cant configure it. When i "die" the game asks me "Do you want to die" or something like that...and man it is really annoying.

Anyone encountered those "problems"?

You have probably downloaded the debug version. Choose the ordinary one. (debug is not playable without brainrots :)
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Supernaut

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Re: Crawl
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2007, 12:36 »

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because many of his useful abillities can be used only with specific items which you probably don't get until dungeon 3rd or so.
You dont make any sense. Dungeons are not numbered, so whats stopping you ?.
Hmmm but you come into dungeons in some order, dont you? For example first to carpenters dungeon, then to a dark hole, or whatever. This way you can surely number dungeons. And i didnt get any ignots in the 2 dungeons i was with my blacksmith, which was kinda...annoying.
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2 villages? A shop with food rations only and a black market? And where am i supposed to sell items?
Okay, so you dont want to sell items to black market. CRAWL : no villages ? nowhere to sell items ? most items are useless ? even ring of invisibility is absolutely damn useless ? .
  No need for villages in a game that is so fast paced as Crawl. The shop system is much like in Nethack, except that you cant sell anything (which eliminates the problem of cleaning out a dungeon from items and then selling them). Besides you dont have any shops in DoomRl but noone whines about it ;). And this works well in a fast paced roguelike with only 1 dungeon and shops without restock. Black market in AdoM gives you no gold for useful items, so there is no point in selling them. And besides Adom has some villages. It could as well have more than 2, if it has those quests, it would as well have more villages, more quests, more anything. Right now it is a weird mix of RPG and Roguelike game. I love some ideas that AdoM has implemented, but still i find it annoying in the long run, that the world isnt bigger than this.  Many items in crawl are useless, or useless for your profession. But dont try to tell me that wands, and most rings or amulets are useless. It is just not true.

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There's no difference in an assasin and a stalker?
Nope.

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No difference in playing style?
Not really, no. The only difference in playing style is between "Fighter group" and "Mage group".

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No difference between playing an Ice Elementalist and a Wizard, or a Warper?
None that would actually matter.

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No difference between a kobold assasin and a mummy necromancer?
Not really. The only difference is that one starts with a spellbook. Thats all.

I can say nothing but that you didn t play the game enough :)
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after many many tries you get really better at it, so that you really see your mistakes (if you ever thought that you dont make mistakes, and you always die because of unfair dungeons, come on, dont be ridiculous).
Hmm, okay, i wasnt ridiculous in the first place, but whatever. The difference from ADoM is - there is always a way out in there..
I couldnt find one when i got swarmed by so called experienced jackals in the wilderness with a beastfighter (or what it is called)

 
You get warned when you venture into some really dangerous places
  Well, this is really helpful rofl.

 
there are usually some ways of fooling monsters, or means of escape, or something. In CRAWL - okay, you go around the corner on level 1 and meet face to face with an Ogre. Thats it. There is nothing you can do to it, and 99% of time you cant escape it. You're dead. Or you get killed with a dagger of electrocution on the same level 1. Still fair ? Or you find a jackal pack on the same level 1. .
First of all  75% of the time you didnt notice a potion, a scroll of teleportation, a wand or whatever else could help you. Thats normal, as there are shitloads of items in CRAWL . Jackal packs are a bad example cause they arent that hard to kill unless you are a weak or multi class (and that is again where class makes a huge difference) , and i have never met an ogre on level 1 (although it is possible) and i have played much over 200 games. I found a monster with a dagger of electrocution 2 times. Did you never went through level 1 ?
An example how you can survive even in a hardest situation : Lvl 10 HE Ice Elementalist came to a hive with many many killerbees, and some other nasty monsters. Probably if i stayed there and tried to fight i would die very fast, as there were like 20 high level monsters around me. Fortunatly i had some scrolls of teleportation with me which i used and then defeated the monsters which flied on the whole level, searching for me. If i used that scroll  1 turn later i would be dead by now. And thats how, many of character die. Sometimes you just dont notice something that can help you.

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But unlike Adom every game is different, maybe because of no quests or something else... beside the replayability is Soooo damn high, so that even the difficulty don't mean a thing...
Uh, whats so different about it ? Every game is the same. You go around killing things, there is nothing else, nothing to do, nothing to see, its just mindnumbingly plain and boring... .
If that would be truth there would be no winners. And probably people would use only one, the most suitable class -- race combination. But, because they like variety, they choose different combinations.

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I agree with Supernaut, maybe a class doesn't mean "anything" (it does mean, in the early game, and some classes are MUCH easier than others, also keep in mind that your stats depend on your class, so it's important for the late game too), but race does mean, and a lot at that.
Compare with ADoM, where race matters, and a class also matters. The choices you make at the start actually mean something.
Actually, you said the same thing that Adral says.  You probably didnt notice the brackets () ;)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 12:40 by Supernaut »
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Styro

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Re: Crawl
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2007, 14:42 »

It is funny how people can have such different opinions about games. For me, I really liked ADoM for a while, but then felt like it got too boring and repetitive. Primarily that is because the beginning game was pretty much the same each time I played. I stopped playing when the change got introduced that made creatures stronger that you kill a lot. When I had a really strong character killed by a bunch of Super Jackals On Steroids it was annoying to me.

And the reasons Karry gives for disliking Crawl are the very things that I like about it. I like the fact that choosing a starting class does not tie you in to a specific play style. If I want to play a Troll Fighter but then change my mind and turn it into a Troll Mage I can. I also like the fact that I gain experience in the things I use. I always thought it was strange in other games that I could kill tons of monsters with my sword and then when I gain a level, pick to cast spells or heal better. In Crawl, if you use a sword you get better with a sword.

I do miss the monster memory system that ADoM has. I think that it is great and would like to have that added to all roguelikes. I also really like the inventory system that Thomas Biskup uses.

In any case, to each his or her own. Everone likes different things and looks for different things when they play games. That is why having such a large variety of games available is a great thing.
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Supernaut

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Re: Crawl
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2007, 15:26 »

It is funny how people can have such different opinions about games. For me, I really liked ADoM for a while, but then felt like it got too boring and repetitive. Primarily that is because the beginning game was pretty much the same each time I played. I stopped playing when the change got introduced that made creatures stronger that you kill a lot. When I had a really strong character killed by a bunch of Super Jackals On Steroids it was annoying to me. 
Yeah well... i always hated it.

And the reasons Karry gives for disliking Crawl are the very things that I like about it. I like the fact that choosing a starting class does not tie you in to a specific play style. If I want to play a Troll Fighter but then change my mind and turn it into a Troll Mage I can. I also like the fact that I gain experience in the things I use. I always thought it was strange in other games that I could kill tons of monsters with my sword and then when I gain a level, pick to cast spells or heal better. In Crawl, if you use a sword you get better with a sword.
That's actually not correct. Your troll will be a crap of a mage even if he manages to get that spellcasting point, he won;t be intelligent enough to learn the first spell (unless you put all ur stats into intelligence), and even if he does, he won't be good enough to cast it efficient (Which doesn't give you much, as at that point you really need the strongest means possible to kill creatures, and lvl 1 spell wont do much good).  And that's again, how the class affects you.
 
I do miss the monster memory system that ADoM has. I think that it is great and would like to have that added to all roguelikes. I also really like the inventory system that Thomas Biskup uses.
I actually miss the great monster DESCRIPTIONS!!!! That Adom has.

What i would really like to see is skills like those of a blacksmith or farmer (very unique indeed), but tweaked in a way so that they could be usable (or at least easier to use). The idea of a rpg/roguelike game would be much better with more villages, and more shops and stuff.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 15:29 by Supernaut »
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Adral

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Re: Crawl
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2007, 02:12 »

I actually miss the great monster DESCRIPTIONS!!!! That Adom has.

What i would really like to see is skills like those of a blacksmith or farmer (very unique indeed), but tweaked in a way so that they could be usable (or at least easier to use). The idea of a rpg/roguelike game would be much better with more villages, and more shops and stuff.


You might want to take a look at Incursion to see what's coming up in the roguelike world. Take a peek at the manual and "White paper" to see what it's striving to accomplish.
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Karry

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Re: Crawl
« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2007, 06:11 »

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Hmmm but you come into dungeons in some order, dont you? For example first to carpenters dungeon, then to a dark hole, or whatever. This way you can surely number dungeons.
For what ? Nobody is forcing me to do things in any certain order.

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And i didnt get any ignots in the 2 dungeons i was with my blacksmith, which was kinda...annoying.
This phrase only shows you dont really get the process of smithing in the first place. It is perfectly possible to find lots, and lots of ore right in the beginning, in certain places.

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Besides you dont have any shops in DoomRl but noone whines about it ;).
Thats because DooMRL is not an rpg, but an action game, therefore your point is moot.

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Black market in AdoM gives you no gold for useful items
Are we playing different games ? It gives you gold right off the bat, even more gold if you enter Thieves guild, and even more gold if you are the head of the Thieves guild.

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If that would be truth there would be no winners.
Well, what can i say, people are weird like that, they like boring games. Its like how usians have this love for Nascar, or hunting games. Stupid, but they are selling like gold.

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First of all  75% of the time you didnt notice a potion, a scroll of teleportation, a wand or whatever else could help you. Thats normal, as there are shitloads of items in CRAWL . Jackal packs are a bad example cause they arent that hard to kill unless you are a weak or multi class (and that is again where class makes a huge difference) , and i have never met an ogre on level 1 (although it is possible) and i have played much over 200 games. I found a monster with a dagger of electrocution 2 times. Did you never went through level 1 ?
Uh-huh. Except it almost never works out. Potions turn out to be potions of degeneration or poison, scrolls of teleportation work with a huge delay and move you, like, 3-4 squares from where you were before, and wands heal your enemies. Jackal packs are a perfect example, because unless you are a troll or something, you cant kill 4-5 jackals one after another on level 1, and they are much faster than you are, so no escape either.
My record was level 19 or 20, its way too hard for anyone after that. How do you call it, when you take a stairs down with a full health and die immediately on arrival, without a single chance to do anything at all ? Incredibly dumb, i say.

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In Crawl, if you use a sword you get better with a sword.
Well, at least they done ONE thing right.

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In any case, to each his or her own. Everone likes different things and looks for different things when they play games. That is why having such a large variety of games available is a great thing.
Sure. Except why dont all CRAWL fanatics pack up and get the hell out to their own newsgroup, instead of occupying the r.g.r.misc one. Like there is nothing in the world but CRAWL...

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What i would really like to see is skills like those of a blacksmith or farmer (very unique indeed), but tweaked in a way so that they could be usable (or at least easier to use).
They are perfectly usable as is. I personally have won the game twice with a farmer.
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Adral

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Re: Crawl
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2007, 06:31 »

Well Karry, you are forgetting a point - if you don't like the game, you can just get along not playing it. I think the only thing people need is respect for their opinions. Coming to a thread where people are discussing how they like a certain game to flame the game to ashes just because you don't like it seems a bit pointless and rude. For instance, Valkeera already stated she does not like the game, but did so in a more kind manner, without stirring up a lot of off-topic posts, and without questioning another people's tastes.

Also, I don't see the problem with r.g.r.misc, because I think it's open to other RLs as well. I've seen POWDER posts and DoomRL posts there, and nobody deletes posts from other games - it's just that a lot of people like Crawl. If you want to see more posts from other games, you can go and post about other games as well. Perhaps more people will follow your example thereafter :).
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TFoN

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Re: Crawl
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2007, 13:47 »

Karry, you should really play the game, or at least read some spoilers, before you make such nonsensical comments on it.

Going directly to what you answered to, a kobold and mummy or in mostly *no way* the same. At the very least, a mummy can't quaff potions and doesn't require food, while a kobold is a hardcore carnivore, which, BTW, differentiates it from the vast majority of races, which are omnivorous.
Indeed, choosing between an assassin or a necromancer has little effect on gameplay, but playing an atheistic Mummy Assassin or a Demonspawn Gladiator of Xom, those are two games with almost nothing to compare. The first game is one of utmost patience, where you can spend thousands of turns in a corridor, waiting for monsters to slowly come to you, insted of alerting their many friends, and the second game is one of immediate action and constant paranoia, where almost anything could happen, at any time - you could gain horns, go berserk and be sent to the Abyss in a matter of single turns.
Of course, the number of game types between the two is vast.
Paths of magic or melee, you say? Playing an unarmed, unarmored Sludge Elf Transmuter's practically neither, nor is playing a Spriggan of Nemelex Xobeh, unless you insist upon counting evocations as magic.

Yeah, there's an issue with low dlvl/high monster lvl spawns. But that's rare, for the most part, and becomes mostly trivial if you give up on going head-on with every monster you meet, or taking the one class that you just can't play at your skill level. This game teaches you to run away when the risks are high. The problem's also balanced by often spawning great wands very early, which then work as a limited number of "problem solvers".

Supernaut

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Re: Crawl
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2007, 14:16 »

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Hmmm but you come into dungeons in some order, dont you? For example first to carpenters dungeon, then to a dark hole, or whatever. This way you can surely number dungeon
s.
For what ? Nobody is forcing me to do things in any certain order.  Still you do them in ur own order,  you choose , what you do next, and that is exactly what i meant.
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And i didnt get any ignots in the 2 dungeons i was with my blacksmith, which was kinda...annoying.
This phrase only shows you dont really get the process of smithing in the first place. It is perfectly possible to find lots, and lots of ore right in the beginning, in certain places.
  Very nice, but I dont like reading spoilers.
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Besides you dont have any shops in DoomRl but noone whines about it ;).
Thats because DooMRL is not an rpg, but an action game, therefore your point is moot.
DoomRl is a roguelike game, and not much of an action game. It doesnt have any features of an action game, unless you count being fast paced as being an action game. Damn, most roguelikes arent RPG games,as they dont have the plot which is important to RPG game, and normal RPG doesnt involve random dungeons, items and monsters.(´the one thing they have from RPG games is character development system. But thats the only one.).  Only AdoM has actually a plot that evolves ( a little).

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If that would be truth there would be no winners.
Well, what can i say, people are weird like that, they like boring games. Its like how usians have this love for Nascar, or hunting games. Stupid, but they are selling like gold.
Counter Strike is selling a lot and people play it, and most people agree that its a great game, still im sure there are some weirdos that mean that Counter Strike sucks because it is too hard, and that it is very boring, so lets play chess.
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First of all  75% of the time you didnt notice a potion, a scroll of teleportation, a wand or whatever else could help you. Thats normal, as there are shitloads of items in CRAWL . Jackal packs are a bad example cause they arent that hard to kill unless you are a weak or multi class (and that is again where class makes a huge difference) , and i have never met an ogre on level 1 (although it is possible) and i have played much over 200 games. I found a monster with a dagger of electrocution 2 times. Did you never went through level 1 ?
Uh-huh. Except it almost never works out. Potions turn out to be potions of degeneration or poison, scrolls of teleportation work with a huge delay and move you, like, 3-4 squares from where you were before, and wands heal your enemies. Jackal packs are a perfect example, because unless you are a troll or something, you cant kill 4-5 jackals one after another on level 1, and they are much faster than you are, so no escape either.
My record was level 19 or 20, its way too hard for anyone after that. How do you call it, when you take a stairs down with a full health and die immediately on arrival, without a single chance to do anything at all ? Incredibly dumb, i say.
I try all the new scrolls and potions on lvl 1 and 2 so i dont have such problems. Again, it shows that you didnt  play the game enough. Wands can be easily tried out BEFORE you find the OOD monster. One jackal "pack" at lvl 1 usually counts 3 jackals, which arent that hard even for a mage. And once again, like TfoN said, in CRAWL you dont fight monsters that you are sure to lose to. Besides the great system in crawl is that you have plenty of stairs both up and down a dungeon. So if you happen to come down and be surrounded by 20 Ogres go up and come in with another entrance´. And this is only 1 way of escaping. I encountered a situation, when i teleport only 4 tiles away only 2 times. And its not hard to use them even with delay...


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In any case, to each his or her own. Everone likes different things and looks for different things when they play games. That is why having such a large variety of games available is a great thing.
Sure. Except why dont all CRAWL fanatics pack up and get the hell out to their own newsgroup, instead of occupying the r.g.r.misc one. Like there is nothing in the world but CRAWL...
This is very pathetic. I thought it was  newsgr. about roguelikes.
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What i would really like to see is skills like those of a blacksmith or farmer (very unique indeed), but tweaked in a way so that they could be usable (or at least easier to use).
They are perfectly usable as is. I personally have won the game twice with a farmer.
Very nice. Because you think so doesnt mean you are right.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 14:19 by Supernaut »
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Supernaut

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Re: Crawl
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2007, 14:22 »



Yeah, there's an issue with low dlvl/high monster lvl spawns. But that's rare, for the most part, and becomes mostly trivial if you give up on going head-on with every monster you meet, or taking the one class that you just can't play at your skill level. This game teaches you to run away when the risks are high. The problem's also balanced by often spawning great wands very early, which then work as a limited number of "problem solvers".
After playing for some time you are almost sure which monsters you can beat with your class/race and which not, that becomes more intuitive :). You kinda get to know which monsters you can defeat with everything you have with ya.
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TFoN

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Re: Crawl
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2007, 13:00 »

Potion, scroll and wand identification - adding to what Supernaut wrote. For the convenience of new players interested in exploring on their own, I'm putting it in spoiler tags.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Supernaught, you quoted Styro on the matter of trollish mages - I worte, either here or on the "what would you like roguelikefied" thread, on that matter exactly. There are ways to make effective (and highly unique, compared with other class-race blends) troll mages, but it's tricky.


And adding to Supernaut's last post, the Tomb, the Slime Pits and the 3 underworlds are all dungeon branches that are nearly impossible for some characters, while being only challenging for others. I've personally never been able to really play the tomb, but raid Pandemonium almost every game. My recent games have been Mummies, however, so this should change. You really get to appreciate not having to eat after all those spell casting, god invoking DSs and all those berserking Trolls!

Malek Deneith

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Re: Crawl
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2007, 10:29 »

Responding after 4 day absence
You were doing so well! Oo
If you were killed by a magic dart, then that potion of heal wounds would have more than saved you. And why weren't you wearing your ring of slaying?
Same reason for both - the weren't identified so i didn't knew what I had :(
Second, how do you get such a detailed char information after you die? I want to post every one i did  (i had like 200 chars ;> )
From the mortem.txt that is generated after every death - just remember that it gets overwritten after next death (note that this is the cease if you play offline - for online mortems folow Adral's instructions)

And as for Adom vs Crawl debate (wchih I didn't have patience to read fully) - IMO Crawl is better when you just want to "take a break" and simply play for a while, but Adom is better when you want to "feel the world"
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TFoN

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Re: Crawl
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2007, 12:16 »

Same reason for both - the weren't identified so i didn't knew what I had :(
Ah, sucks!
IMO you should've tried drinking it anyway once at low health, but for all I know you drank a different one and were paralysed for it :P

One of my recent games was ended by an orc priest, which I could have easily killed with my wand of draining, if I hadn't forgotten about it!
And my great-going lvl 14 mummy necromancer was killed by sticky flames, which I could've managed by hiding behind my abominations instead of being hit by more (ahhh, ego... :) ), and by keeping a second ring of resist fire around (which I could've, as one was found a short time earlier). Alot of this had to do with getting so used to being able to heal with potions, I hadn't considered how much life is lost in the process.

Malek Deneith

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Re: Crawl
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2007, 08:07 »

Damn bone levels... and I finally got to the Temple... just to get killed by my former, "seriously-out-of-depth" self

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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