General > Off Topic
Crawl
Karry:
--- Quote ---because many of his useful abillities can be used only with specific items which you probably don't get until dungeon 3rd or so.
--- End quote ---
You dont make any sense. Dungeons are not numbered, so whats stopping you ?
--- Quote ---2 villages? A shop with food rations only and a black market? And where am i supposed to sell items?
--- End quote ---
Okay, so you dont want to sell items to black market. CRAWL : no villages ? nowhere to sell items ? most items are useless ? even ring of invisibility is absolutely damn useless ?
--- Quote ---There's no difference in an assasin and a stalker?
--- End quote ---
Nope.
--- Quote ---No difference in playing style?
--- End quote ---
Not really, no. The only difference in playing style is between "Fighter group" and "Mage group".
--- Quote ---No difference between playing an Ice Elementalist and a Wizard, or a Warper?
--- End quote ---
None that would actually matter.
--- Quote ---No difference between a kobold assasin and a mummy necromancer?
--- End quote ---
Not really. The only difference is that one starts with a spellbook. Thats all.
--- Quote ---O'realy?
--- End quote ---
Yeah, realy.
--- Quote ---after many many tries you get really better at it, so that you really see your mistakes (if you ever thought that you dont make mistakes, and you always die because of unfair dungeons, come on, dont be ridiculous).
--- End quote ---
Hmm, okay, i wasnt ridiculous in the first place, but whatever. The difference from ADoM is - there is always a way out in there. You get warned when you venture into some really dangerous places, there are usually some ways of fooling monsters, or means of escape, or something. In CRAWL - okay, you go around the corner on level 1 and meet face to face with an Ogre. Thats it. There is nothing you can do to it, and 99% of time you cant escape it. You're dead. Or you get killed with a dagger of electrocution on the same level 1. Still fair ? Or you find a jackal pack on the same level 1.
--- Quote ---But unlike Adom every game is different, maybe because of no quests or something else... beside the replayability is Soooo damn high, so that even the difficulty don't mean a thing...
--- End quote ---
Uh, whats so different about it ? Every game is the same. You go around killing things, there is nothing else, nothing to do, nothing to see, its just mindnumbingly plain and boring...
--- Quote ---I agree with Supernaut, maybe a class doesn't mean "anything" (it does mean, in the early game, and some classes are MUCH easier than others, also keep in mind that your stats depend on your class, so it's important for the late game too), but race does mean, and a lot at that.
--- End quote ---
Compare with ADoM, where race matters, and a class also matters. The choices you make at the start actually mean something.
dpeg:
--- Quote from: Supernaut on February 01, 2007, 18:07 ---
--- Quote from: Adral on February 01, 2007, 14:41 --- The problem with Crawl are the early levels, although this is being corrected step by step by their development team with Stone Soup variant. It's much easier to survive (for me, at least) in SS than in "normal" Crawl.
This process will be continued a bit, but note that survivability is rather high now... The OOD monsters are not a bug.
--- End quote ---
Hey, when i started SS i have chosen a ghoul fighter and the first things i noticed were :
1. All the dice rolls, to hit, and damage were shown, which greatly destroyed the whole pseudo realism in game
2. I played with some "Wizard mode" on but i cant configure it. When i "die" the game asks me "Do you want to die" or something like that...and man it is really annoying.
Anyone encountered those "problems"?
--- End quote ---
You have probably downloaded the debug version. Choose the ordinary one. (debug is not playable without brainrots :)
Supernaut:
--- Quote from: Karry on February 02, 2007, 01:56 ---
--- Quote ---because many of his useful abillities can be used only with specific items which you probably don't get until dungeon 3rd or so.
--- End quote ---
You dont make any sense. Dungeons are not numbered, so whats stopping you ?.
--- End quote ---
Hmmm but you come into dungeons in some order, dont you? For example first to carpenters dungeon, then to a dark hole, or whatever. This way you can surely number dungeons. And i didnt get any ignots in the 2 dungeons i was with my blacksmith, which was kinda...annoying.
--- Quote from: Karry on February 02, 2007, 01:56 ---
--- Quote ---2 villages? A shop with food rations only and a black market? And where am i supposed to sell items?
--- End quote ---
Okay, so you dont want to sell items to black market. CRAWL : no villages ? nowhere to sell items ? most items are useless ? even ring of invisibility is absolutely damn useless ? .
--- End quote ---
No need for villages in a game that is so fast paced as Crawl. The shop system is much like in Nethack, except that you cant sell anything (which eliminates the problem of cleaning out a dungeon from items and then selling them). Besides you dont have any shops in DoomRl but noone whines about it ;). And this works well in a fast paced roguelike with only 1 dungeon and shops without restock. Black market in AdoM gives you no gold for useful items, so there is no point in selling them. And besides Adom has some villages. It could as well have more than 2, if it has those quests, it would as well have more villages, more quests, more anything. Right now it is a weird mix of RPG and Roguelike game. I love some ideas that AdoM has implemented, but still i find it annoying in the long run, that the world isnt bigger than this. Many items in crawl are useless, or useless for your profession. But dont try to tell me that wands, and most rings or amulets are useless. It is just not true.
--- Quote from: Karry on February 02, 2007, 01:56 ---
--- Quote ---There's no difference in an assasin and a stalker?
--- End quote ---
Nope.
--- Quote ---No difference in playing style?
--- End quote ---
Not really, no. The only difference in playing style is between "Fighter group" and "Mage group".
--- Quote ---No difference between playing an Ice Elementalist and a Wizard, or a Warper?
--- End quote ---
None that would actually matter.
--- Quote ---No difference between a kobold assasin and a mummy necromancer?
--- End quote ---
Not really. The only difference is that one starts with a spellbook. Thats all.
--- End quote ---
I can say nothing but that you didn t play the game enough :)
--- Quote from: Karry on February 02, 2007, 01:56 ---
--- Quote ---after many many tries you get really better at it, so that you really see your mistakes (if you ever thought that you dont make mistakes, and you always die because of unfair dungeons, come on, dont be ridiculous).
--- End quote ---
Hmm, okay, i wasnt ridiculous in the first place, but whatever. The difference from ADoM is - there is always a way out in there..
--- End quote ---
I couldnt find one when i got swarmed by so called experienced jackals in the wilderness with a beastfighter (or what it is called)
--- Quote from: Karry on February 02, 2007, 01:56 ---You get warned when you venture into some really dangerous places
--- End quote ---
Well, this is really helpful rofl.
--- Quote from: Karry on February 02, 2007, 01:56 ---there are usually some ways of fooling monsters, or means of escape, or something. In CRAWL - okay, you go around the corner on level 1 and meet face to face with an Ogre. Thats it. There is nothing you can do to it, and 99% of time you cant escape it. You're dead. Or you get killed with a dagger of electrocution on the same level 1. Still fair ? Or you find a jackal pack on the same level 1. .
--- End quote ---
First of all 75% of the time you didnt notice a potion, a scroll of teleportation, a wand or whatever else could help you. Thats normal, as there are shitloads of items in CRAWL . Jackal packs are a bad example cause they arent that hard to kill unless you are a weak or multi class (and that is again where class makes a huge difference) , and i have never met an ogre on level 1 (although it is possible) and i have played much over 200 games. I found a monster with a dagger of electrocution 2 times. Did you never went through level 1 ?
An example how you can survive even in a hardest situation : Lvl 10 HE Ice Elementalist came to a hive with many many killerbees, and some other nasty monsters. Probably if i stayed there and tried to fight i would die very fast, as there were like 20 high level monsters around me. Fortunatly i had some scrolls of teleportation with me which i used and then defeated the monsters which flied on the whole level, searching for me. If i used that scroll 1 turn later i would be dead by now. And thats how, many of character die. Sometimes you just dont notice something that can help you.
--- Quote from: Karry on February 02, 2007, 01:56 ---
--- Quote ---But unlike Adom every game is different, maybe because of no quests or something else... beside the replayability is Soooo damn high, so that even the difficulty don't mean a thing...
--- End quote ---
Uh, whats so different about it ? Every game is the same. You go around killing things, there is nothing else, nothing to do, nothing to see, its just mindnumbingly plain and boring... .
--- End quote ---
If that would be truth there would be no winners. And probably people would use only one, the most suitable class -- race combination. But, because they like variety, they choose different combinations.
--- Quote from: Karry on February 02, 2007, 01:56 ---
--- Quote ---I agree with Supernaut, maybe a class doesn't mean "anything" (it does mean, in the early game, and some classes are MUCH easier than others, also keep in mind that your stats depend on your class, so it's important for the late game too), but race does mean, and a lot at that.
--- End quote ---
Compare with ADoM, where race matters, and a class also matters. The choices you make at the start actually mean something.
--- End quote ---
Actually, you said the same thing that Adral says. You probably didnt notice the brackets () ;)
Styro:
It is funny how people can have such different opinions about games. For me, I really liked ADoM for a while, but then felt like it got too boring and repetitive. Primarily that is because the beginning game was pretty much the same each time I played. I stopped playing when the change got introduced that made creatures stronger that you kill a lot. When I had a really strong character killed by a bunch of Super Jackals On Steroids it was annoying to me.
And the reasons Karry gives for disliking Crawl are the very things that I like about it. I like the fact that choosing a starting class does not tie you in to a specific play style. If I want to play a Troll Fighter but then change my mind and turn it into a Troll Mage I can. I also like the fact that I gain experience in the things I use. I always thought it was strange in other games that I could kill tons of monsters with my sword and then when I gain a level, pick to cast spells or heal better. In Crawl, if you use a sword you get better with a sword.
I do miss the monster memory system that ADoM has. I think that it is great and would like to have that added to all roguelikes. I also really like the inventory system that Thomas Biskup uses.
In any case, to each his or her own. Everone likes different things and looks for different things when they play games. That is why having such a large variety of games available is a great thing.
Supernaut:
--- Quote from: Styro on February 02, 2007, 14:42 ---It is funny how people can have such different opinions about games. For me, I really liked ADoM for a while, but then felt like it got too boring and repetitive. Primarily that is because the beginning game was pretty much the same each time I played. I stopped playing when the change got introduced that made creatures stronger that you kill a lot. When I had a really strong character killed by a bunch of Super Jackals On Steroids it was annoying to me.
--- End quote ---
Yeah well... i always hated it.
--- Quote from: Styro on February 02, 2007, 14:42 --- And the reasons Karry gives for disliking Crawl are the very things that I like about it. I like the fact that choosing a starting class does not tie you in to a specific play style. If I want to play a Troll Fighter but then change my mind and turn it into a Troll Mage I can. I also like the fact that I gain experience in the things I use. I always thought it was strange in other games that I could kill tons of monsters with my sword and then when I gain a level, pick to cast spells or heal better. In Crawl, if you use a sword you get better with a sword.
--- End quote ---
That's actually not correct. Your troll will be a crap of a mage even if he manages to get that spellcasting point, he won;t be intelligent enough to learn the first spell (unless you put all ur stats into intelligence), and even if he does, he won't be good enough to cast it efficient (Which doesn't give you much, as at that point you really need the strongest means possible to kill creatures, and lvl 1 spell wont do much good). And that's again, how the class affects you.
--- Quote from: Styro on February 02, 2007, 14:42 ---I do miss the monster memory system that ADoM has. I think that it is great and would like to have that added to all roguelikes. I also really like the inventory system that Thomas Biskup uses.
--- End quote ---
I actually miss the great monster DESCRIPTIONS!!!! That Adom has.
What i would really like to see is skills like those of a blacksmith or farmer (very unique indeed), but tweaked in a way so that they could be usable (or at least easier to use). The idea of a rpg/roguelike game would be much better with more villages, and more shops and stuff.
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