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Author Topic: AoB and Standard Games  (Read 7846 times)

Evil_Lamp_6

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AoB and Standard Games
« on: September 06, 2013, 14:06 »

Short time lurker, first time poster.  Hi everyone!  Anyway,  I'm really having trouble with AoB runs, like not even getting past lvl 3 or 4.  I keep getting hit way too much and lose my Blue Armor usually lvl 2 or 3.  If I'm lucky, I can find another Green or even Blue to replace it sometimes, but I'm still also burning through my meds at the same time.  I'm probably killing too much as opposed to running for the exit more, but then on the few times I make it to 5 or 6, I feel really under-powered to deal with the enemies there.  I certainly have had no luck getting to 8 on AoB and even if I did, I doubt my ability to get past it as things stand.  Any help of what I'm doing wrong or could be doing more correctly would be appreciated.

Now, my other problem is just standard games.  I've gotten to the SM once, but that was through sheer blind luck (I died horribly once there).  I can sometimes get lucky and get to or even kill the CD, but again, mostly due to luck rather than any "skill" or "ability" on my part.  The Deimos lvls really give me a hard time and it is mostly just a crap-shoot with the RNG if I can get through them.  The Hell lvls I mostly run through them as fast as possible as Mancubuses(Mancubii?) end my day very quickly.  Arch-viles I kill with extreme prejudice ignoring pretty much anything else until they die.  But I still have issues with either my armor not being effective enough or is always destroyed all too often.  And then I kill all my meds only to still usually die in an explosion of some sorts.  So any help with what I'm doing wrong here would be appreciated as well.

Last thoughts, I have read through the sticky-ed "Beginner's Guide" and while very helpful, I guess I'm not getting something from it still.  I also pretty much exclusively play on HMP or higher, but with all my failures, I'm considering lowering it.  Although that won't help me with getting medals/ranks as much..., nor really help with what I'm doing wrong IMO.  It would just make things, easier, but without improvement on my part.  So, sorry for the wall of text.  Any help would be...helpful?  Thanks in advanced!
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AlterAsc

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Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2013, 14:59 »

Not winning once and aiming for HMP or higher is quite daring. I don't see much of a point in doing so.
I honestly recommend dropping to HNTR until you win once or twice.

Tips for AoB: understand how enemy AI works. Because if you don't getting in melee range is very very painful. So either read some more guides, or simply play more games.

Normal tips: cornershooting is very powerful technique. Ammochain is a very good master to aim for if you have doubts about building your character. Don't hate Arch-viles that much - it's not the end of the world.


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Evil_Lamp_6

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Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2013, 15:31 »

Alright.  As far as AoB is concerned, any specific guides I should read concerning enemy AI behavior and closing to melee distance?  I think I may have to try going to ammo chain route, but I seldom have a weapon that kind of build would be good for.  Thanks so far.
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thelaptop

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Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2013, 18:01 »

Rogue-likes are very harsh.  Deal with it.

That said, there's really no reason to just play HMP+.  Playing at HNTR is completely legitimate, and if anything, most of the balancing work is done at HNTR and UV levels.  I play at HMP+ because I'm a DoomRL old fogey and have played too much HNTR in the past and want to up the stakes by playing on HMP+ -- you don't have to do that to "gain street cred" here.

AoB is all-out melee.  If you are going down the Ammochain mastery route, you are doing something horribly wrong.  In AoB, you will die a lot on the early stages -- get used to it.  The trick in AoB if all you want to do is win, is to pick your kills carefully to get your progression along the lines of Bru->Bru->Ber by the time you reach the Chained Court.  Don't fight former sergeants if you don't have to -- they will always hit you and knock off a significant chunk of your HP.

Once you've hit the Chained Court and gotten the Chainsaw, things are a little easier on you and you can pretty much kill many things.  I would recommend taking an additional level of Bru to deal more damage.  You still need to pick your fights carefully, but you now have the ability to be 'zerked on taking enough damage, and that gives you the edge needed to help charge in to take them out.  The next "upgrade" to the Chainsaw is the Longinus Spear found in the Unholy Cathedral.  As a melee 'zerker, that place is almost mandatory unless you really know what you are doing.

"Cyberdemon" is known as "Cybie" here, not CD (that took me a while).  Standard games give you no additional perks, and if you find that you are taking too much damage, I would always recommend taking more cover, and if you are going for chain-fire weapons (Chaingun, Plasma Rifle) with your MAC focus, slap on at least one Agility mod on the Chaingun and at least two Agility mods on the Plasma Rifle to increase the accuracy to a more acceptable level (one EE can replace one A-mod, but that probably blocks MAC anyway).

There is a little known keybinding in-game called "wait".  It let's you sit there for 1.0s or when an enemy comes into view -- this is something useful if you know there are things in the next room and you're waiting at the doorway and don't want to compromise your position but want them to come over.
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Evil_Lamp_6

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Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2013, 19:19 »

@thelaptop: Yeah, I can see that.  I suppose my post came off as "whiney" but I assure you that is not my intent.  Such are the pitfalls of text based communication.

I suppose it comes from growing up with Doom that gives me the mentality of not playing on the lower difficulties and will just be something I'll have to overcome.  The Ammochain route was concerning standard runs, not AoB, but I can see the confusion from my post.  It's funny you say that as shortly after my post, I did have a mostly successful AoB run.  The RNG smiled upon me!  And yeah, the Chainsaw saw me through most of that game.  I'll have to try that whole avoid former Sgts thing.

Cybie, got it.  When/if do you grab whizkid for the mods?  I usually play as a Marine, so unless I start playing more as a Tech, I don't see how I could fit it in my build.

Thanks for the stuff so far.  I've a lot to learn.  Also @ ~300 deaths, so I've got the dieing thing down ;)
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White Rider

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Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2013, 19:43 »

When/if do you grab whizkid for the mods?  I usually play as a Marine, so unless I start playing more as a Tech, I don't see how I could fit it in my build.

Whizkid requires two levels of Finesse, which works with every Marine mastery except for Army of the Dead. I might have gone for Whizkid in a few AoB runs where I built Vampyre. All those points into Brute reinforce my melee accuracy to a point where making a double chainsaw might be a viable option until I get to Unholy Cathedral.

I find little reason to go out of my way to get Whizkid unless I'm playing a Technician or I'm playing on Ao100/AAo666, though. Standard games don't give me near-limitless opportunities to mod my gear to my liking. (Also because having A-modded cybernano phaseshift armor and A-modded antigrav phaseshift boots is hilarious, but pretty much only possible on AAo666.)
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thelaptop

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Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2013, 20:52 »

Yes, WK requires 2xFin to get there, and is generally more useful for really long-haul games (either Ao100/ArchAo666 or Conqueror runs).  MAD is super-duper overpowered fun anyway, so you don't lose much missing out on WK, though 2xFin will still help MAD shine (increase DPS through increasing firing rate).

MAC synergises wonderfully with WK (2xFin ==> more DAKKA) since you can upgrade your Plasma Rifle to be doing Death-Ray levels of damage, either through assemblies or through A-mod/T-mod.

The usual way to treat WK, if you haven't noticed the trend, is to make it a late-game addition, even for Technicians.  Most if not all Master traits supply benefits that far outweigh the ability to out-mod your gear.  The build-up towards WK (2xFin) is not useless at all and will help a DoomGuy with a Master trait become an even more effective killer.

[Edit: I must be sleep-deprived to make that mistake.  Also, I think I might be conflating 3 different versions of DoomRL source code in my head.]
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 01:41 by thelaptop »
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AlterAsc

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Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2013, 00:35 »

Quote
I think I may have to try going to ammo chain route, but I seldom have a weapon that kind of build would be good for.  Thanks so far.
That's the beauty of MAc - all you need is plasma rifle and you usually get one by the time you reach MAc. I recommend slapping agility mod on it.

Also Fin2 would certainly help MAD...if only it wasn't blocked. (Or perhaps certaion someone knows something about 0998 that we don't :) )
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LuckyDee

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Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2013, 01:46 »

Tips for AoB: understand how enemy AI works. Because if you don't getting in melee range is very very painful. So either read some more guides, or simply play more games.

Additionally: play a standard game with a melee build. This allows you to start the game using any weapon you like, then switch to melee when you have BER and/or a chainsaw.

Disclaimer: I am a notoriously poor reader and have only roughly scanned this thread before posting. Any resemblance with actual replies already given is purely based on coincidence.
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Moonshine Fox

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Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2013, 10:41 »

I'm struggling with the whole "pick your fights" thing, as every enemy I leave alive is wasted XP in my poor brain. I don't think I've ever gone through a game without blueing the level before leaving, unless I get completely wasted (Deimos Lab comes to mind).

I usually aim for MMB on melee, as I found that I STINK as MVm, and the berserk of zerk-builds don't trigger often enough for me to be reliable. However, a very mobile (tactical armor and boots, hellrunner) MMB build is absolutely awesome. Though, of course you have the big issue of being completely pants until you actually get MMB :P
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 09:05 by Moonshine Fox »
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thelaptop

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Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2013, 11:26 »

Realistically for a melee build, what you really need is Bru->Bru->Ber->Bru and a non-sucking melee weapon to go with that.  If you like charging in and slaughtering, MBm will be a good master trait to go for, otherwise MVm is a "safe" survival-enhancing melee master trait.  Also, due to a bug, 'zerk triggers (by damage taken) less if you took any additional Iro (fixed for 0.9.9.8).  Maybe this is why you feel the the berserk effect isn't triggering often enough.  Also, if you are going for Ber, I highly recommend taking a third level of Bru -- it does help with the damage-doing trigger of 'zerking, unless I have remembered wrongly.

100% is unnecessary unless you are going for specific badges or challenges.  I play on HMP these days, and I can assure you that if you kill enough of the enemies up to and including Cybie, you can easily reach cLev 7 or 8, where you have access to your Master trait and possibly one to two additional traits.  That's enough to win the game.

I have no idea what MVP is -- did you mean MVm?

I have no experience with MMB builds, so I will not comment on that.  But your observation of mobility is very poignant -- it is often better to have DoomGuy do something faster than tank more, be it shooting, hitting or moving.
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White Rider

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Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2013, 13:28 »

Barring Malicious Blades builds on AoB, I prefer taking 3 levels of Brute before I take Berserker, particularly if I feel suicidal enough to attempt Arena. So instead of:

Bru -> Bru -> Ber -> Bru

I enter Arena with:

Bru -> Bru -> Bru -> YASD (damn Arena)

Early Ber might be a good idea on UV though since so many enemies show up at one time and so early on.
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Eyro

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Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2013, 18:04 »

Well crap, I am learning a ton about why I'm bad at the game, I keep trying to 100% levels on high difficulties as a beginner. I would've thought the extra XP would be worth the risk.
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Moonshine Fox

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Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2013, 09:06 »

I have no idea what MVP is -- did you mean MVm?
yes >_< Brainfart. Sorry.

Thanks for the insight, though. It helps.
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Moonshine Fox

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Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2013, 09:08 »

Bru -> Bru -> Bru -> YASD (damn Arena)
This I definitely recognize. I tend to avoid challenge levels when I play AoB, at least early on. The only one I specifically aim for is Chained Court, and that's only for the guaranteed Chainsaw.
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Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2013, 09:22 »

I need more practice to pull it off consistently, but if you carry a couple of spare knives to throw, it becomes a lot more manageable.
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Sambojin

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Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2013, 17:52 »

As stated, the core of any melee build is levels in Brute. Everything else is just flavour. The master traits are nice, but it's Brute doing the heavy lifting for your build. This means that virtually any build can be successful in melee (as long as you stay away from shooting traits, duh) and in AoB. It doesn't make it easier to get going, but you do have a huge amount of freedom in your build. Also, read up on gift dropping (it's very useful for melee "door-watching", busted armour is still great to carry for AoB games) and how to make an AP chainsaw (it's your mid-tier weapon of choice between a normal chainsaw and the spear).

On higher difficulty levels, skipping a few enemies at the start isn't a huge problem (unless you're going for specific medals/badges). You get more experience anyway, with more high-level enemies to kill, so it evens out very quickly. It's a matter of making it far enough to get your equipment stacked up nicely, one level of experience won't make nearly as much difference as saving a couple of medikits, armours and some HP.

MVm is awesome. Always has been, always will be. It's not as good at hp-farming now, but it's still very nice.

For a different "masterless-master-build", try Bru-Bru-Bru-Ber-Int-Int on a scout. In any order you like really (with Bru to start with). As always, Int(2) is virtually a master trait on it's own, and melee is also the build that benefits most from knowing where power-ups are. Sometimes you can plan entire levels on "globe-running", especially if they're interspersed with zerks and invulnerabilities. It also helps you learn a bit more about the AI, so eventually movement patterns of enemies become more instinctual to you.

Use run. A lot. In fact, that's why I like melee builds so much. They teach you how to press the run button at the right time. I often forget in normal runs (even in shotgun builds) and still succeed. In melee games you can't forget or you die. Every small medipack, every small life globe, is an opportunity to run more. Often the extra health is simply a nice bonus side effect. Plan when to run, but just make sure you do it often. Bru(3) is a massive to-hit bonus, so don't worry about accuracy losses.
 
That's about it for my advice on melee games. For normal games, it's easier. Go for a MAD build (it gives you a good weapon and is pretty survivable). Remember that SM turns RLs and MLs into awesome weapons as well, so it's useful for any build. Or try a scout with Int(2) straight up and build into rapid-fire afterwards, or try a MFa or Msh build. All these builds let you learn and have a nice "levelling-effect" curve, where you get more powerful right when you need to. You'll have Rel(2) just before the arena, with SM often coming in during the fight, or you'll have Int(2) just before it. Both of these traits are ridiculously useful at that point, so you'll save heaps of ammo, life , medikits and random junk and put yourself on a good footing for later levels. The rest of the game gets a heap easier from that point onwards (remember to rocket-jump once towards the arena master in the chained court, bye-bye barons).

I could give TONS of advice for normal games, but they're the "easy" starts, even on UV.
   
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 18:03 by Sambojin »
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Sambojin

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Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2013, 18:52 »

Some other general advice for normal games:
 
Do the arena and the wall. If you want an easy game they are the two special levels that give you everything you need. Which is a backpack and a ML. This is completely build independant in normal games. Halls of carnage is nice as well (or any level with a BFG). All high level enemies can be destroyed with sufficient applications of explodey-ness, no matter your build.

Mancubi are a fight-fire-with-fire type enemy. So fire rockets at them. Lots of rockets. The knock-back is a life saver, and it doesn't hurt that there's often a vile around re-raising them to take some splash damage.
 
Viles are also a rocket job. Splash damage and corpse gibbing are wonderful things. Item loss and inventory management be damned. Lots of rockets is where it's at. This is Doom remember?

Use your BFG. The amount of times I've carted that thing all the way to the end, modded the hell out of it, just to fire it at cybie/spidey a few times is ridiculous. There's plenty more plasma about than that, so use it. It's fun and quite relaxing. You can't rely on being able to nuke levels with any regularity, but you can rely on big-balls-of-plasma-death to lighten your mood.

Inventory management is important. Carry plenty of ammo, 2-3 armours (one busted green for gift-dropping) and no more than 6 medikits (less if possible). There is no such thing as wasting ammo or wasted ammo-slots, they go hand in hand. But how many situations have you survived due to all that extra life preserving gear? Very few usually, just because you would have died anyway or you didn't use it in any case. Either use it or lose it, and ammo can ALWAYS be used. If you're unsure, carry more rockets or plasma, and be sure to fire them when appropriate (or even when inappropriate). They just saved you some life and armour and made you smile. That's far better than most of the things clogging up your inventory.

Avoid all situations that look scarey. If you see it, and it looks scarey, hit run and run away behind a wall. Come back with a ML/RL/BFG equipped, full armour and full life in a few moves. Approach it from a different angle if you must, but it's usually best to know where the enemy are on the map, but this time having "full-everything-with-dodging" equipped, and a will to use it this time around. If you can't run away due to it being an open area, just hit run, weapon/quick-switch and fire at scarey situation with your biggest gun. Not your "build's-weapon-type-with-mods" gun, your actual biggest one. There is more ammo somewhere (you're probably carrying it).  But there won't be a scarey situation where there once was. Caution is a key part of DoomRL, so's corner shooting, but liberal applications of firepower is another facet of the game (when played well).

Basically what I'm getting at is that people rarely seem to use the things at their disposal in DoomRL. Use those medipacks. Use that armour. Fire the big guns. You can build a character all you want, you can mod the hell out of a weapon, but if you don't use the stuff in your inventory and you die, none of that forward planning was worth anything. 
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 18:57 by Sambojin »
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Evil_Lamp_6

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Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2013, 22:09 »

Good write up.  Lots of advice there.  Still my biggest problem with an AoB run is getting started.  I usually lose my Blue Armor on Level 2 and die shortly thereafter.  Unless the RNG has been kind to me, I run out of armor then health.  I guess I just need to run more until I get that CC Chainsaw.  Then things generally smooth out a bit for awhile.  I might have to give the melee Scout build I try.  I keep trying with Marine to get MVm, but have yet to live long enough to get it.  I did have at least one good AoB where I at least got the Bronze Medal, but that was about it.  I'll still have to work on it.  Also, what you say about running is important.  I rarely remember to run.  I guess I still need to figure out when to run or not.  Thanks again for the tips.
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Sambojin

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Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2013, 22:36 »

As an aside, they actually give you the blue armour so you've got a gift-drop from the start in AoB (be careful where you drop it, one space back from a door is fine, in the doorway isn't). One of your first moves should be to take it off, drop it near the first door and proceed to punch formers to death. It only slows you down and is best used in the chained court (skip the arena on AoB unless you really know movement/attack timings). But you can chainsaw the arena master if you really have to with one green armour (to get there between bullets/shotties) and the inital blue (less plasma damage as you chainsaw the AM) if you play it on easier difficulty levels. You can do it on UV, but boy is it hard (Arena and CC+ is a recipe for failure unless the RNG loves you).

I have managed to get an amour-piercing chainsaw within a level of CC+ on UV though, so you can take your chances if you want.
   
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 22:38 by Sambojin »
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