Chaosforge Forum

  • April 19, 2021, 07:13
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.



Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: AoB and Standard Games  (Read 4132 times)

Evil_Lamp_6

  • Private FC
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
AoB and Standard Games
« on: September 06, 2013, 14:06 »

Short time lurker, first time poster.  Hi everyone!  Anyway,  I'm really having trouble with AoB runs, like not even getting past lvl 3 or 4.  I keep getting hit way too much and lose my Blue Armor usually lvl 2 or 3.  If I'm lucky, I can find another Green or even Blue to replace it sometimes, but I'm still also burning through my meds at the same time.  I'm probably killing too much as opposed to running for the exit more, but then on the few times I make it to 5 or 6, I feel really under-powered to deal with the enemies there.  I certainly have had no luck getting to 8 on AoB and even if I did, I doubt my ability to get past it as things stand.  Any help of what I'm doing wrong or could be doing more correctly would be appreciated.

Now, my other problem is just standard games.  I've gotten to the SM once, but that was through sheer blind luck (I died horribly once there).  I can sometimes get lucky and get to or even kill the CD, but again, mostly due to luck rather than any "skill" or "ability" on my part.  The Deimos lvls really give me a hard time and it is mostly just a crap-shoot with the RNG if I can get through them.  The Hell lvls I mostly run through them as fast as possible as Mancubuses(Mancubii?) end my day very quickly.  Arch-viles I kill with extreme prejudice ignoring pretty much anything else until they die.  But I still have issues with either my armor not being effective enough or is always destroyed all too often.  And then I kill all my meds only to still usually die in an explosion of some sorts.  So any help with what I'm doing wrong here would be appreciated as well.

Last thoughts, I have read through the sticky-ed "Beginner's Guide" and while very helpful, I guess I'm not getting something from it still.  I also pretty much exclusively play on HMP or higher, but with all my failures, I'm considering lowering it.  Although that won't help me with getting medals/ranks as much..., nor really help with what I'm doing wrong IMO.  It would just make things, easier, but without improvement on my part.  So, sorry for the wall of text.  Any help would be...helpful?  Thanks in advanced!
Logged

AlterAsc

  • Supporter
  • Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 399
    • View Profile
Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2013, 14:59 »

Not winning once and aiming for HMP or higher is quite daring. I don't see much of a point in doing so.
I honestly recommend dropping to HNTR until you win once or twice.

Tips for AoB: understand how enemy AI works. Because if you don't getting in melee range is very very painful. So either read some more guides, or simply play more games.

Normal tips: cornershooting is very powerful technique. Ammochain is a very good master to aim for if you have doubts about building your character. Don't hate Arch-viles that much - it's not the end of the world.


Logged
(0.9.9.6 - ?) Arch-Vile Chaos Lt. Colonel [26|20|18|16|12|2]

Evil_Lamp_6

  • Private FC
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2013, 15:31 »

Alright.  As far as AoB is concerned, any specific guides I should read concerning enemy AI behavior and closing to melee distance?  I think I may have to try going to ammo chain route, but I seldom have a weapon that kind of build would be good for.  Thanks so far.
Logged

thelaptop

  • Chaos Fanatic!
  • Grand Inquisitor
  • Apostle
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2503
  • Grumpy Admin
    • View Profile
Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2013, 18:01 »

Rogue-likes are very harsh.  Deal with it.

That said, there's really no reason to just play HMP+.  Playing at HNTR is completely legitimate, and if anything, most of the balancing work is done at HNTR and UV levels.  I play at HMP+ because I'm a DoomRL old fogey and have played too much HNTR in the past and want to up the stakes by playing on HMP+ -- you don't have to do that to "gain street cred" here.

AoB is all-out melee.  If you are going down the Ammochain mastery route, you are doing something horribly wrong.  In AoB, you will die a lot on the early stages -- get used to it.  The trick in AoB if all you want to do is win, is to pick your kills carefully to get your progression along the lines of Bru->Bru->Ber by the time you reach the Chained Court.  Don't fight former sergeants if you don't have to -- they will always hit you and knock off a significant chunk of your HP.

Once you've hit the Chained Court and gotten the Chainsaw, things are a little easier on you and you can pretty much kill many things.  I would recommend taking an additional level of Bru to deal more damage.  You still need to pick your fights carefully, but you now have the ability to be 'zerked on taking enough damage, and that gives you the edge needed to help charge in to take them out.  The next "upgrade" to the Chainsaw is the Longinus Spear found in the Unholy Cathedral.  As a melee 'zerker, that place is almost mandatory unless you really know what you are doing.

"Cyberdemon" is known as "Cybie" here, not CD (that took me a while).  Standard games give you no additional perks, and if you find that you are taking too much damage, I would always recommend taking more cover, and if you are going for chain-fire weapons (Chaingun, Plasma Rifle) with your MAC focus, slap on at least one Agility mod on the Chaingun and at least two Agility mods on the Plasma Rifle to increase the accuracy to a more acceptable level (one EE can replace one A-mod, but that probably blocks MAC anyway).

There is a little known keybinding in-game called "wait".  It let's you sit there for 1.0s or when an enemy comes into view -- this is something useful if you know there are things in the next room and you're waiting at the doorway and don't want to compromise your position but want them to come over.
Logged
I compute, therefore I am.

Hell Baron 1st Lieutenant (0.9.9.7)
[20/12/8/0/0/0]

Evil_Lamp_6

  • Private FC
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2013, 19:19 »

@thelaptop: Yeah, I can see that.  I suppose my post came off as "whiney" but I assure you that is not my intent.  Such are the pitfalls of text based communication.

I suppose it comes from growing up with Doom that gives me the mentality of not playing on the lower difficulties and will just be something I'll have to overcome.  The Ammochain route was concerning standard runs, not AoB, but I can see the confusion from my post.  It's funny you say that as shortly after my post, I did have a mostly successful AoB run.  The RNG smiled upon me!  And yeah, the Chainsaw saw me through most of that game.  I'll have to try that whole avoid former Sgts thing.

Cybie, got it.  When/if do you grab whizkid for the mods?  I usually play as a Marine, so unless I start playing more as a Tech, I don't see how I could fit it in my build.

Thanks for the stuff so far.  I've a lot to learn.  Also @ ~300 deaths, so I've got the dieing thing down ;)
Logged

White Rider

  • Elder
  • Captain
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 252
  • Doesn't play much
    • View Profile
    • My Steam Profile
Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2013, 19:43 »

When/if do you grab whizkid for the mods?  I usually play as a Marine, so unless I start playing more as a Tech, I don't see how I could fit it in my build.

Whizkid requires two levels of Finesse, which works with every Marine mastery except for Army of the Dead. I might have gone for Whizkid in a few AoB runs where I built Vampyre. All those points into Brute reinforce my melee accuracy to a point where making a double chainsaw might be a viable option until I get to Unholy Cathedral.

I find little reason to go out of my way to get Whizkid unless I'm playing a Technician or I'm playing on Ao100/AAo666, though. Standard games don't give me near-limitless opportunities to mod my gear to my liking. (Also because having A-modded cybernano phaseshift armor and A-modded antigrav phaseshift boots is hilarious, but pretty much only possible on AAo666.)
Logged
0.9.9.6: 10d 15h Arch-Vile Major; 6/6/2012 - 3/15/2013
0.9.9.7: 12d 9h Cyberdemon Br. General; 3/19/2013 - ?
V: 31 (5P 17S 9F) M: 32 I: 66 A: 40 | 26 24 19 8 1 0

thelaptop

  • Chaos Fanatic!
  • Grand Inquisitor
  • Apostle
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2503
  • Grumpy Admin
    • View Profile
Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2013, 20:52 »

Yes, WK requires 2xFin to get there, and is generally more useful for really long-haul games (either Ao100/ArchAo666 or Conqueror runs).  MAD is super-duper overpowered fun anyway, so you don't lose much missing out on WK, though 2xFin will still help MAD shine (increase DPS through increasing firing rate).

MAC synergises wonderfully with WK (2xFin ==> more DAKKA) since you can upgrade your Plasma Rifle to be doing Death-Ray levels of damage, either through assemblies or through A-mod/T-mod.

The usual way to treat WK, if you haven't noticed the trend, is to make it a late-game addition, even for Technicians.  Most if not all Master traits supply benefits that far outweigh the ability to out-mod your gear.  The build-up towards WK (2xFin) is not useless at all and will help a DoomGuy with a Master trait become an even more effective killer.

[Edit: I must be sleep-deprived to make that mistake.  Also, I think I might be conflating 3 different versions of DoomRL source code in my head.]
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 01:41 by thelaptop »
Logged
I compute, therefore I am.

Hell Baron 1st Lieutenant (0.9.9.7)
[20/12/8/0/0/0]

AlterAsc

  • Supporter
  • Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 399
    • View Profile
Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2013, 00:35 »

Quote
I think I may have to try going to ammo chain route, but I seldom have a weapon that kind of build would be good for.  Thanks so far.
That's the beauty of MAc - all you need is plasma rifle and you usually get one by the time you reach MAc. I recommend slapping agility mod on it.

Also Fin2 would certainly help MAD...if only it wasn't blocked. (Or perhaps certaion someone knows something about 0998 that we don't :) )
Logged
(0.9.9.6 - ?) Arch-Vile Chaos Lt. Colonel [26|20|18|16|12|2]

LuckyDee

  • Sound Wizard
  • Grand Inquisitor
  • General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1512
  • High Caliber Consecrator
    • View Profile
    • LuckyDeeIndustries
Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2013, 01:46 »

Tips for AoB: understand how enemy AI works. Because if you don't getting in melee range is very very painful. So either read some more guides, or simply play more games.

Additionally: play a standard game with a melee build. This allows you to start the game using any weapon you like, then switch to melee when you have BER and/or a chainsaw.

Disclaimer: I am a notoriously poor reader and have only roughly scanned this thread before posting. Any resemblance with actual replies already given is purely based on coincidence.
Logged
[0.9.9.7G] Current: Hell Knight 1st Lieutenant [20/12/4/0/0/0]
High: Arch-Vile Lt. Colonel [25/21/12/2/1/0]

Moonshine Fox

  • Silver Supporter
  • Elder
  • Sergeant Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 156
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2013, 10:41 »

I'm struggling with the whole "pick your fights" thing, as every enemy I leave alive is wasted XP in my poor brain. I don't think I've ever gone through a game without blueing the level before leaving, unless I get completely wasted (Deimos Lab comes to mind).

I usually aim for MMB on melee, as I found that I STINK as MVm, and the berserk of zerk-builds don't trigger often enough for me to be reliable. However, a very mobile (tactical armor and boots, hellrunner) MMB build is absolutely awesome. Though, of course you have the big issue of being completely pants until you actually get MMB :P
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 09:05 by Moonshine Fox »
Logged
Shoot at everything that moves. If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway, it might move later.

thelaptop

  • Chaos Fanatic!
  • Grand Inquisitor
  • Apostle
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2503
  • Grumpy Admin
    • View Profile
Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2013, 11:26 »

Realistically for a melee build, what you really need is Bru->Bru->Ber->Bru and a non-sucking melee weapon to go with that.  If you like charging in and slaughtering, MBm will be a good master trait to go for, otherwise MVm is a "safe" survival-enhancing melee master trait.  Also, due to a bug, 'zerk triggers (by damage taken) less if you took any additional Iro (fixed for 0.9.9.8).  Maybe this is why you feel the the berserk effect isn't triggering often enough.  Also, if you are going for Ber, I highly recommend taking a third level of Bru -- it does help with the damage-doing trigger of 'zerking, unless I have remembered wrongly.

100% is unnecessary unless you are going for specific badges or challenges.  I play on HMP these days, and I can assure you that if you kill enough of the enemies up to and including Cybie, you can easily reach cLev 7 or 8, where you have access to your Master trait and possibly one to two additional traits.  That's enough to win the game.

I have no idea what MVP is -- did you mean MVm?

I have no experience with MMB builds, so I will not comment on that.  But your observation of mobility is very poignant -- it is often better to have DoomGuy do something faster than tank more, be it shooting, hitting or moving.
Logged
I compute, therefore I am.

Hell Baron 1st Lieutenant (0.9.9.7)
[20/12/8/0/0/0]

White Rider

  • Elder
  • Captain
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 252
  • Doesn't play much
    • View Profile
    • My Steam Profile
Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2013, 13:28 »

Barring Malicious Blades builds on AoB, I prefer taking 3 levels of Brute before I take Berserker, particularly if I feel suicidal enough to attempt Arena. So instead of:

Bru -> Bru -> Ber -> Bru

I enter Arena with:

Bru -> Bru -> Bru -> YASD (damn Arena)

Early Ber might be a good idea on UV though since so many enemies show up at one time and so early on.
Logged
0.9.9.6: 10d 15h Arch-Vile Major; 6/6/2012 - 3/15/2013
0.9.9.7: 12d 9h Cyberdemon Br. General; 3/19/2013 - ?
V: 31 (5P 17S 9F) M: 32 I: 66 A: 40 | 26 24 19 8 1 0

Eyro

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 92
  • Self replenishing superheated material thrower. <3
    • View Profile
Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2013, 18:04 »

Well crap, I am learning a ton about why I'm bad at the game, I keep trying to 100% levels on high difficulties as a beginner. I would've thought the extra XP would be worth the risk.
Logged

Moonshine Fox

  • Silver Supporter
  • Elder
  • Sergeant Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 156
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2013, 09:06 »

I have no idea what MVP is -- did you mean MVm?
yes >_< Brainfart. Sorry.

Thanks for the insight, though. It helps.
Logged
Shoot at everything that moves. If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway, it might move later.

Moonshine Fox

  • Silver Supporter
  • Elder
  • Sergeant Major
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 156
  • Lost Soul
    • View Profile
Re: AoB and Standard Games
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2013, 09:08 »

Bru -> Bru -> Bru -> YASD (damn Arena)
This I definitely recognize. I tend to avoid challenge levels when I play AoB, at least early on. The only one I specifically aim for is Chained Court, and that's only for the guaranteed Chainsaw.
Logged
Shoot at everything that moves. If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway, it might move later.
Pages: [1] 2  All