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[Aki]

Hi guys!

Upon coming back to 0.9.9.7 and seeing the new huge amount of master traits, I thought it'd be time to give them a once-over and see what I thought of them.

Personally, I don't think these were as balanced as they were back in the day. Some are much better then others, whereas back in the day they were all pretty balanced and useful for the relevent build (Ammochain for chainguns, army of the dead for shotguns, fireangel for pacifist, blah blah blah.)

I don't know when this huge amount of masters was added and i've no intention to go looking through previous releases for patch notes, so if i'm talking known issues or old rubbish then please ignore me. =D

I'm going to be doing a (kind of decent, depending on how much time i have) run for each master trait, posting the mortem so everyone can see the stats, giving my opinion and asking for community feedback (On the trait, not on my runs. I am aware that i'm not the best DoomRL player, but i'd really like these threads to be about the traits, not my sucky gameplay >.<). At thelaptop's request, i'll be posting one thread per topic and waiting until one runs dry before posting another one, so i'd kindly ask that unless you have some pressing balance issue that's not a bug to wait for me to post one up :)

Now, that said, the trait that i'd like to put under the microscope today is Gunrunner.

For those unfamiliar with the trait:



Now, for my run:

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (0.9.9.7) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Aki, level 8 Demon Sergeant Scout,
 was electrocuted by a shambler on level 1 of the Deimos base.
 He survived 65638 turns and scored 80365 points.
 He played for 4 hours, 49 minutes and 3 seconds.
 He was a man of Ultra-Violence!

 He killed 414 out of 416 hellspawn. (99%)
 He was a real killing machine...

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 11
  Levels visited   : 4
  Levels completed : 3

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  UAC Star (bronze cluster)
  Hell Champion Medal

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  .......====########.............######........#..........*#
  ......====#########..............####.........#...........#
  .....====##########..##########...##....}...../......#....#
  ....====###==================###........|.#####.....##....#
  ...====###====================###|.....;..#!..#############
  ...===###======================###}...B...#...#===========#
  ...===###=====.......|....=====####[......#...#===========#
  ...===###====..###....###..====####...|...##//#==#######==#
  ...===###====..###....###..=|==..|}[.....%.....==/..}}.#^=#
  ...===###====..###....###..=|==.......%.%.....B==/.|..}#^=#
  %..===###====..###....###..====####.......##//#==#######==#
  ...===###=====............=====####..;....#...#===========#
  ...===###======================###.....|..#...#===========#
  ...====###====================###.....}|X.#.".#############
  ....====###==================###........%.#####.....!.....#
  .....====##########..##########...##....}...../...........#
  ......====#########......%.......####..|..................#
  .......====########....%%.......######........#.##.......*#
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 0/50   Experience 29947/8
  ToHit Ranged +0  ToHit Melee +0  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +0

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Scout

    Finesse          (Level 1)
    Hellrunner       (Level 2)
    Juggler          (Level 1)
    Dodgemaster      (Level 1)
    Intuition        (Level 2)
    Gunrunner        (Level 1)

  Fin->Jug->HR->HR->DM->MGr->Int->Int->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   fireproof red armor [1/4] (9%)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   tactical shotgun (8d3) [0/5]
    [c] [ Boots      ]   protective boots [2/2] (96%) (A)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   double shotgun (10d3)x2 [0/2] (P1)

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] rocket launcher (6d6) [1/1] (A1)
    [b] nuclear plasma rifle (1d7)x6 [24/24]
    [c] green armor [1/1] (195%) (B)
    [d] shotgun shell (x50)
    [e] shotgun shell (x50)
    [f] shotgun shell (x32)
    [g] rocket (x10)
    [h] rocket (x10)
    [i] power cell (x50)
    [j] envirosuit pack
    [k] Arena Master's Staff
    [l] shell box (x100)
    [m] shell box (x100)
    [n] shell box (x100)

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    Melee      - internal 0%    torso -30%  feet 0%   
    Acid       - internal 0%    torso 0%    feet 25% 
    Fire       - internal 0%    torso 13%   feet 0%   

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    80 former humans
    32 former sergeants
    32 former captains
    49 imps
    43 demons
    93 lost souls
    30 cacodemons
    5 hell knights
    7 barons of hell
    2 arachnotrons
    7 former commandos
    5 pain elementals
    5 revenants
    2 mancubi
    7 elite former humans
    5 elite former sergeants
    5 elite former captains
    2 elite former commandos
    2 bruiser brothers
    1 Arena Master

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 2 he entered Hell's Arena.
  He left the Arena as a champion!
  On level 5 he stormed the Chained Court.
  On level 5 he found the Arena Master's Staff!
  He defeated the Hell Arena Master!
  On level 7 he marched into the Military Base.
  He purified his fellow comrades.
  On level 8 he encountered the Phobos Anomaly.
  On level 8 he assembled a fireproof armor!
  Level 9 was a hard nut to crack!
  On level 9 he entered Deimos Lab.
  On level 9 he assembled a tactical shotgun!
  On level 9 he finally was electrocuted by a shambler.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : out of vision
 You reload the tactical shotgun.
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : pool of blood
 You reload the tactical shotgun.
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : a shambler (unhurt) | bridge | [ m ]ore
 Targeting canceled.
 You start running!
 You dodge!
 You are hit! Your fireproof red armor is damaged!
 You dodge! Boom!
 You dodge! Boom!
 Your weapon is empty.
 You are hit! You die!... Press <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 21 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 19 of those were killed.
 And 1 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 1 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 1 killed the bitch and survived.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Okay! Let's take a look at how that run went.

First of all, I borrowed the build from DemoMan's run. Check it out by clicking the link.

Now, as for the master trait itself, here's my opinion:

I chose to use shotguns for this run - The trait does not work with rapid-fire weapons and has limited potential with pistols due to the superior Gun Kata and the low damage you will do with pistols up until that point. That leaves you with a melee build - which will not work with the trait - and a "rocket" build, which is too unreliable to base a gameplay type around. Essentially, it's a shotgun only trait - which leaves me wondering why it's in the general section for scout and not the shotgun section.

The run went pretty well up until the point where I gained the master trait. At around level 6 or 7, where you can choose your master traits, you will start to encounter some of the harder enemies - Barons and Pain elementals on lower difficulties and the full arsenal of demons on the higher difficulties. At this stage, the benefits of the master trait should kick in to help give you a boost to keep up with these enemies - if you are forgoing a master trait, by this stage your build will have enough tailored traits to survive, perhaps intuition or hellrunner where a master trait would have blocked it - but in this case, I was left staggeringly behind by Gunrunner.

Gunrunner in my opinion can best be described as "The poor man's Gun Kata". Due to the dodgemaster requirement, it excels in taking out single boss enemies - You can easily get up in their face (or at a distance, if you prefer) and strafe around their hits while instantly shooting in return. However, it only applies while in the "Running" tactic, meaning that you can't exploit this regularly without massive RNG assistance due to medikits/globes, or a LOT of waiting - which is impractical, because you'll be using this in combat. In addition, you will be prone to running out of ammo during this stage, meaning you will have to run to cover to reload, or do so in the middle of combat. Both options are not favourable, with reloading in combat never being a good idea if you can avoid it and running to cover to reload wasting turns of your running tactic.

Extending the duration of the running tactic was not a noticeable advantage, since it was offset by continually having to find cover. In fact, I may have spent less time running in actual combat due to the trait and the lack of shottyman.

I can understand the benefit of shottyman to this trait though - essentially turning you into a mobile autoturret for the duration of your tactic. And I will see some people who have played further then me (I YASD'd on the Shamblers in Deimos Lab due to not understanding how they worked - Their attacks autoaim despite a miss animation, pierce like a railgun, and look like rockets but don't cause Fire damage? They also seem to teleport and flank you? But that's for another topic) claiming that the trait could be quite broken with shottyman, on a shotgun run. However, (and I don't know if the devs agree with me on this, this is just my opinion) a master trait should start to shine immediately. Not reaching it's full potential, of course, but you should be able to be like "Hey, I have a master trait now!".

With Gunrunner, it was more of a "Hey, I didn't really get any benefit from this trait..."

Compare almost every other master trait - the real benefits become available immediately. Cateye allows you to immediately start scouting or sniping, Ammochain immediately allows you to start pooping out plasma rifle shots like it's going out of fashion, Sharpshooter immediately allows you to be incredibly broken with the GCB start dealing your maximum damage.

Gunrunner allows you to get a few shots off, in a limited fashion. Remember that the trait is essentially limited to pistols and shotguns - one of which has a limited clip, and the other has only one shot (With the exception of the combat shotgun, but against bulky targets and groups of mobs, you're going to want to use that double shotty. Face it. You know you want to.)

In addition to that, you are basically allowed to do it only once per level without dependence on the RNG. Perhaps twice. Certainly not enough to help a playstyle, and in my opinion, certainly not good enough to be a master trait.

So, as for balancing, what would I recommend?

I would recommend that this be moved to the scout shotgun master trait, and the requirements being made Shottyman (1) and Dodgemaster (1). The blocked requirements should stay the same. To facilitate this, Fireangel would be moved to the Marine class General master trait, and Survivalist being moved to the scout general master trait (which makes sense, considering that a scout's job is to survive and report information). Why? Well, as it stands, with the limitation to the trait being only while running and having to take 3 extra perks on top of that to utilize the power of the trait properly, it seems to have one too many negatives. One of them needs to be a positive, and the more balanced option would be to make shottyman the requirement so that you can start going guns blazing straight away. As for moving it away from the general master traits? By very nature of it, you can't use Gunrunner with melee weapons, and the description prevents it from being used with rapid-fire weapons (not that I think this would be a good idea). This limits it to the pistol and shotgun - something that is not shared by any of the other master traits (Survivalist just gives you more HP and while it blocks berserker, it doesn't block brute, making even a melee survivalist possible, and Scavenger, while nerfing the other skillsets, doesn't make them unavailable - it also gives you the added benefit of those crazy-ass assemblies even easier, but that's for another thread). Ergo, for balancing purposes, it would be better to simply make it a shotgun master and move Fireangel (which I don't see as a shotgun mastery anyway. What's it for, blowing up barrels on yourself due to the spread? ?_?) to the general section so it can be used with AoPc. (The requirements i'll discuss in another thread.)

What are your thoughts? Do you completely disagree with my assessment? Do you think something totally different? Please post your thoughts and leave your feedback on the Gunrunner master trait!

[Thomas]

I think you're underestimating Gunrunner because of the testing condtions - namely, you're in one of the most dangerous fights of the game and you're not getting the correct #7-#9 traits (rel rel shottyman, of course).

Gunrunner is awesome because of its interaction with shell boxes. Shell boxes take your reloading time down to something in the order of 0.1-0.2s. If you are going towards gunrunner, attempt to hoard shell boxes until you're level 6. Once you get gunrunner but not shottyman, you're in this weird period of time where firing is safer than reloading. It's usually the other way around, right? But this is way better, because it's a million times easier to make reloading safe (shell boxes, hiding behind anything) than it is to make firing safe (hiding behind corner shooting spots, that's about it)

And once you're level 9, you need a contingency plan for viles and revenants, but that's it. Nothing with a miss chance can possibly threaten you for those 45 turns, and the level will almost certainly have at least one healing powerup. Corner shooting is still plan A, but gunrunner is one of the best plan Bs available.

Finally, gunrunner + shell box/shottyman is a perfect excuse to bust out the elephant gun. Regular shotgun + PP for extreme 12d3 power with a downside that you basically ignore.

[Aki]

I think you're underestimating Gunrunner because of the testing condtions - namely, you're in one of the most dangerous fights of the game and you're not getting the correct #7-#9 traits (rel rel shottyman, of course).

Gunrunner is awesome because of its interaction with shell boxes. Shell boxes take your reloading time down to something in the order of 0.1-0.2s. If you are going towards gunrunner, attempt to hoard shell boxes until you're level 7. Once you get gunrunner but not shottyman, you're in this weird period of time where firing is safer than reloading. It's usually the other way around, right? But this is way better, because it's a million times easier to make reloading safe (shell boxes, hiding behind anything) than it is to make firing safe (hiding behind corner shooting spots, that's about it)

And once you're level 9, you need a contingency plan for viles and revenants, but that's it. Nothing with a miss chance can possibly threaten you for those 45 turns, and the level will almost certainly have at least one healing powerup. Corner shooting is still plan A, but gunrunner is one of the best plan Bs available.

Finally, gunrunner + shell box/shottyman is a perfect excuse to bust out the elephant gun. Regular shotgun + PP for extreme 12d3 power with a downside that you basically ignore.

Hi Thomas! It's been a while!

I'm trying to do a few different things at the moment, but I'll certainly give it another go. Perhaps i'll skip the labs this time if I get it so I don't have to deal with those things.

You're right in saying that I probably would have been better going for shottyman. Intuition helps a lot with corner shooting and truth be told, I was just copying that build for a run before I had this idea.

I still don't think that it quite stacks up with the other master traits even given that, however.

As for the elephant gun - I've never tried to make one, always opting for the Tactical Shotgun if the option's available. I would have thought it was stuck between the double shotgun for damage and the combat shotgun for lack of spread.

[Eyro]

Quick question: What would you replace Fireangel with for the Technician? Shottyhead? Or a new Master?

That said, I do agree that the trait shines when you get SM. However, during my run, in the time between getting Gunrunner and SM, I found it extremely useful as just an "Oh shit" button if I turn a corner/spawn near 4 Barons or w/e. I think it's useful for simply making the main point of running (GTFO while dodging) more effective, as the knockback from the shotgun helps you run.

I do think, however, it does make sense as a Shotgun trait, and the Scout's current one (Shottyhead), makes sense as a Tech trait, reducing firing time by 2/3 doesn't seem to be in the realm of "Click faster mans, you practiced starcraft".

[Aki]

Yeah.

While I think that they could use a few tweaks, I personally would prefer it to look like:

Shotty:
Marine: MAD
Scout: MGr
Tech: MSh (With tweaks?)

General:
Marine: MFa
Scout: MSv
Tech: MSc

[Eyro]

Agreed as well. Man think of a Dodgemaster Survivalist scout. Be clearing everything with no damage but it'd take 5x as long to do so. Bwhahaha.


EDIT: Oh, btw, Shamblers do plasma damage, I believe. I think blue armor might've helped you out. They're also resistant to explosions if you tried that.

[Thomas]

^^^^
What is survivalist doing on a non-marine that doesn't even make sense

As for the elephant gun - I've never tried to make one, always opting for the Tactical Shotgun if the option's available. I would have thought it was stuck between the double shotgun for damage and the combat shotgun for lack of spread.

Being stuck in the middle is precisely what it's good for!

The elephant gun's biggest strength is its efficiency. It puts down damage comparable to the double shotgun in one firing action with only one shell. Its damage dropoff is pretty good, so it deals more damage than the combat shotgun at any range and the double shotgun at most ranges. Remember, the double shotgun is two seperate attacks with two seperate damage dropoffs (first knocks them back so the second deals less damage) and two seperate penalties for enemy armour.

The two power mod cost (and the fact that the tactical shotgun is still excellent in most situations) means that most people go for tactical shotgun anyway, but gunrunner/shottyhead scouts are particularly interested in the elephant gun because:
a) Elephant gun pierces armour about as well as Army of the Dead does, which they obviously aren't getting.
b) They aren't necessarily doing all of their fighting behind corners, where the tactical shotgun reigns supreme
c) They're relying on shell boxes, so they don't like swapping weapons. A shotgun that is good at all ranges like the elepahnt gun is handy.

[Aki]

EDIT: Oh, btw, Shamblers do plasma damage, I believe. I think blue armor might've helped you out. They're also resistant to explosions if you tried that.

So they're like bruisers but with plasma damage? Okay, thanks.

^^^^
What is survivalist doing on a non-marine that doesn't even make sense

I put my reasoning in the first post. A scout, traditionally, would be more of a survivalist (in the traditional sense of the word) then a marine who goes in all guns blazing. I personally don't see anything wrong with it, considering Fireangel is more of a "badass" trait (Taking no damage from explosions? Woahhhhh).

Being stuck in the middle is precisely what it's good for!

The elephant gun's biggest strength is its efficiency. It puts down damage comparable to the double shotgun in one firing action with only one shell. Its damage dropoff is pretty good, so it deals more damage than the combat shotgun at any range and the double shotgun at most ranges. Remember, the double shotgun is two seperate attacks with two seperate damage dropoffs (first knocks them back so the second deals less damage) and two seperate penalties for enemy armour.

The two power mod cost (and the fact that the tactical shotgun is still excellent in most situations) means that most people go for tactical shotgun anyway, but gunrunner/shottyhead scouts are particularly interested in the elephant gun because:
a) Elephant gun pierces armour about as well as Army of the Dead does, which they obviously aren't getting.
b) They aren't necessarily doing all of their fighting behind corners, where the tactical shotgun reigns supreme
c) They're relying on shell boxes, so they don't like swapping weapons. A shotgun that is good at all ranges like the elepahnt gun is handy.

I see, I see! Thanks for explaining that to me. I think I might have underestimated the regular shotgun then. I forgot about the Double Shotgun being two seperate shots.

But, the elephant gun pierces armor? I didn't see any such description on the wiki, and last I heard shrapnel is affected by armor twice as much. Unless you meant piercing as in the additional damage?

[Thomas]

Yeah, I did just mean that because it deals more damage per shot it can be a replacement for army of the dead's armour piercing ability.

[Aki]

Yeah, I did just mean that because it deals more damage per shot it can be a replacement for army of the dead's armour piercing ability.

All righty, thanks.

Thomas, after pondering on it a little bit I do see where you're coming from (and I will do another run through later, I swear!), but do you see how it could still be a little underpowered?

What would be your opinion on making it require shottyman and a shotgun trait?

[Thomas]

Getting the entire eats, shoots and leaves move, shoot and fire schtick by level 6 would be insane. Gunrunner as it stands in my eyes, is perhaps 80-90% as powerful as shottyhead/MAD already.

Also, as fireangel and gunrunner are right now, it actually makes more sense for fireangel to be a shotgun trait and gunrunner to be a general trait. Fireangel, even ignoring its requirements, assumes that you are dodging in combat and makes it better. Gunrunner gives you the ability to dodge in combat. If both of them had their requirements/blocks removed, fireangel would still only see play by shotgunners.

By that logic, I guess I'd remove the no-rapidfire restriction on gunrunner. If someone finds a laser rifle halfway through their gunrunner run, who is Kornel to say no? (_{he's the game designer, he gets to say no whenever})

[Aki]

Getting the entire eats, shoots and leaves move, shoot and fire schtick by level 6 would be insane. Gunrunner as it stands in my eyes, is perhaps 80-90% as powerful as shottyhead/MAD already.

Also, as fireangel and gunrunner are right now, it actually makes more sense for fireangel to be a shotgun trait and gunrunner to be a general trait. Fireangel, even ignoring its requirements, assumes that you are dodging in combat and makes it better. Gunrunner gives you the ability to dodge in combat. If both of them had their requirements/blocks removed, fireangel would still only see play by shotgunners.

By that logic, I guess I'd remove the no-rapidfire restriction on gunrunner. If someone finds a laser rifle halfway through their gunrunner run, who is Kornel to say no? (_{he's the game designer, he gets to say no whenever})

Until I give it another playthrough I can't really agree with you on that note - considering it's only used while running. If you were able to do that ALL the time, then i'd agree that it's a bit broken. Perhaps my playstyle is too cautious? I just don't see it up to par with some of the other traits.

As for Fireangel, i'd honestly see the main use of that to be AoPc. Other traits would be more effective in other areas.

You're right about the restrictions, but from a technical and balance perspective I think it'd make more sense the other way around. Logically, too. Running with shotguns is very Doomish and used in a lot of speedruns, but taking a lava bath isn't really exclusive to a shotgun. It'd also be harder to aim a pistol/chaingun/PALSMA rifle while running too, considering the shotgun's fire and forget.

Taking a lava bath is a sign of being a badass, and whilst weilding shotguns makes you a badass, being badass doesn't always require you to have a shotgun. /shot

[Eyro]

Another thing to note: Even if Gunrunner is underpowered compared to the other traits, that doesn't mean it needs to be changed, you gotta consider the prerequisites as well as other traits that go well with it. It might be designed as a "magikarp" Master Trait.

[Aki]

Another thing to note: Even if Gunrunner is underpowered compared to the other traits, that doesn't mean it needs to be changed, you gotta consider the prerequisites as well as other traits that go well with it. It might be designed as a "magikarp" Master Trait.

Indeed, kinda like Ammochain with a modded whizkid plasma rifle. But even after you take Shottyman, it's still only 80-90% as good as MAD and MSh, even in Thomas's opinion (No offense, I just disagree there).

[Eyro]

I dunno, I look at the trait as passing up some demon killing ability for enhancing your survivability (Although killing stuff does help you survive...)