Print

Please login or register.

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[Aki]

Hi guys!

Upon coming back to 0.9.9.7 and seeing the new huge amount of master traits, I thought it'd be time to give them a once-over and see what I thought of them.

Personally, I don't think these were as balanced as they were back in the day. Some are much better then others, whereas back in the day they were all pretty balanced and useful for the relevent build (Ammochain for chainguns, army of the dead for shotguns, fireangel for pacifist, blah blah blah.)

I don't know when this huge amount of masters was added and i've no intention to go looking through previous releases for patch notes, so if i'm talking known issues or old rubbish then please ignore me. =D

I'm going to be doing a (kind of decent, depending on how much time i have) run for each master trait, posting the mortem so everyone can see the stats, giving my opinion and asking for community feedback (On the trait, not on my runs. I am aware that i'm not the best DoomRL player, but i'd really like these threads to be about the traits, not my sucky gameplay >.<). At thelaptop's request, i'll be posting one thread per topic and waiting until one runs dry before posting another one, so i'd kindly ask that unless you have some pressing balance issue that's not a bug to wait for me to post one up :)

Now, that said, the trait that i'd like to put under the microscope today is Gunrunner.

For those unfamiliar with the trait:



Now, for my run:

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (0.9.9.7) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Aki, level 8 Demon Sergeant Scout,
 was electrocuted by a shambler on level 1 of the Deimos base.
 He survived 65638 turns and scored 80365 points.
 He played for 4 hours, 49 minutes and 3 seconds.
 He was a man of Ultra-Violence!

 He killed 414 out of 416 hellspawn. (99%)
 He was a real killing machine...

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 11
  Levels visited   : 4
  Levels completed : 3

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  UAC Star (bronze cluster)
  Hell Champion Medal

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  .......====########.............######........#..........*#
  ......====#########..............####.........#...........#
  .....====##########..##########...##....}...../......#....#
  ....====###==================###........|.#####.....##....#
  ...====###====================###|.....;..#!..#############
  ...===###======================###}...B...#...#===========#
  ...===###=====.......|....=====####[......#...#===========#
  ...===###====..###....###..====####...|...##//#==#######==#
  ...===###====..###....###..=|==..|}[.....%.....==/..}}.#^=#
  ...===###====..###....###..=|==.......%.%.....B==/.|..}#^=#
  %..===###====..###....###..====####.......##//#==#######==#
  ...===###=====............=====####..;....#...#===========#
  ...===###======================###.....|..#...#===========#
  ...====###====================###.....}|X.#.".#############
  ....====###==================###........%.#####.....!.....#
  .....====##########..##########...##....}...../...........#
  ......====#########......%.......####..|..................#
  .......====########....%%.......######........#.##.......*#
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 0/50   Experience 29947/8
  ToHit Ranged +0  ToHit Melee +0  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +0

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Scout

    Finesse          (Level 1)
    Hellrunner       (Level 2)
    Juggler          (Level 1)
    Dodgemaster      (Level 1)
    Intuition        (Level 2)
    Gunrunner        (Level 1)

  Fin->Jug->HR->HR->DM->MGr->Int->Int->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   fireproof red armor [1/4] (9%)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   tactical shotgun (8d3) [0/5]
    [c] [ Boots      ]   protective boots [2/2] (96%) (A)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   double shotgun (10d3)x2 [0/2] (P1)

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] rocket launcher (6d6) [1/1] (A1)
    [b] nuclear plasma rifle (1d7)x6 [24/24]
    [c] green armor [1/1] (195%) (B)
    [d] shotgun shell (x50)
    [e] shotgun shell (x50)
    [f] shotgun shell (x32)
    [g] rocket (x10)
    [h] rocket (x10)
    [i] power cell (x50)
    [j] envirosuit pack
    [k] Arena Master's Staff
    [l] shell box (x100)
    [m] shell box (x100)
    [n] shell box (x100)

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    Melee      - internal 0%    torso -30%  feet 0%   
    Acid       - internal 0%    torso 0%    feet 25% 
    Fire       - internal 0%    torso 13%   feet 0%   

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    80 former humans
    32 former sergeants
    32 former captains
    49 imps
    43 demons
    93 lost souls
    30 cacodemons
    5 hell knights
    7 barons of hell
    2 arachnotrons
    7 former commandos
    5 pain elementals
    5 revenants
    2 mancubi
    7 elite former humans
    5 elite former sergeants
    5 elite former captains
    2 elite former commandos
    2 bruiser brothers
    1 Arena Master

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 2 he entered Hell's Arena.
  He left the Arena as a champion!
  On level 5 he stormed the Chained Court.
  On level 5 he found the Arena Master's Staff!
  He defeated the Hell Arena Master!
  On level 7 he marched into the Military Base.
  He purified his fellow comrades.
  On level 8 he encountered the Phobos Anomaly.
  On level 8 he assembled a fireproof armor!
  Level 9 was a hard nut to crack!
  On level 9 he entered Deimos Lab.
  On level 9 he assembled a tactical shotgun!
  On level 9 he finally was electrocuted by a shambler.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : out of vision
 You reload the tactical shotgun.
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : pool of blood
 You reload the tactical shotgun.
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : a shambler (unhurt) | bridge | [ m ]ore
 Targeting canceled.
 You start running!
 You dodge!
 You are hit! Your fireproof red armor is damaged!
 You dodge! Boom!
 You dodge! Boom!
 Your weapon is empty.
 You are hit! You die!... Press <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 21 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 19 of those were killed.
 And 1 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 1 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 1 killed the bitch and survived.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Okay! Let's take a look at how that run went.

First of all, I borrowed the build from DemoMan's run. Check it out by clicking the link.

Now, as for the master trait itself, here's my opinion:

I chose to use shotguns for this run - The trait does not work with rapid-fire weapons and has limited potential with pistols due to the superior Gun Kata and the low damage you will do with pistols up until that point. That leaves you with a melee build - which will not work with the trait - and a "rocket" build, which is too unreliable to base a gameplay type around. Essentially, it's a shotgun only trait - which leaves me wondering why it's in the general section for scout and not the shotgun section.

The run went pretty well up until the point where I gained the master trait. At around level 6 or 7, where you can choose your master traits, you will start to encounter some of the harder enemies - Barons and Pain elementals on lower difficulties and the full arsenal of demons on the higher difficulties. At this stage, the benefits of the master trait should kick in to help give you a boost to keep up with these enemies - if you are forgoing a master trait, by this stage your build will have enough tailored traits to survive, perhaps intuition or hellrunner where a master trait would have blocked it - but in this case, I was left staggeringly behind by Gunrunner.

Gunrunner in my opinion can best be described as "The poor man's Gun Kata". Due to the dodgemaster requirement, it excels in taking out single boss enemies - You can easily get up in their face (or at a distance, if you prefer) and strafe around their hits while instantly shooting in return. However, it only applies while in the "Running" tactic, meaning that you can't exploit this regularly without massive RNG assistance due to medikits/globes, or a LOT of waiting - which is impractical, because you'll be using this in combat. In addition, you will be prone to running out of ammo during this stage, meaning you will have to run to cover to reload, or do so in the middle of combat. Both options are not favourable, with reloading in combat never being a good idea if you can avoid it and running to cover to reload wasting turns of your running tactic.

Extending the duration of the running tactic was not a noticeable advantage, since it was offset by continually having to find cover. In fact, I may have spent less time running in actual combat due to the trait and the lack of shottyman.

I can understand the benefit of shottyman to this trait though - essentially turning you into a mobile autoturret for the duration of your tactic. And I will see some people who have played further then me (I YASD'd on the Shamblers in Deimos Lab due to not understanding how they worked - Their attacks autoaim despite a miss animation, pierce like a railgun, and look like rockets but don't cause Fire damage? They also seem to teleport and flank you? But that's for another topic) claiming that the trait could be quite broken with shottyman, on a shotgun run. However, (and I don't know if the devs agree with me on this, this is just my opinion) a master trait should start to shine immediately. Not reaching it's full potential, of course, but you should be able to be like "Hey, I have a master trait now!".

With Gunrunner, it was more of a "Hey, I didn't really get any benefit from this trait..."

Compare almost every other master trait - the real benefits become available immediately. Cateye allows you to immediately start scouting or sniping, Ammochain immediately allows you to start pooping out plasma rifle shots like it's going out of fashion, Sharpshooter immediately allows you to be incredibly broken with the GCB start dealing your maximum damage.

Gunrunner allows you to get a few shots off, in a limited fashion. Remember that the trait is essentially limited to pistols and shotguns - one of which has a limited clip, and the other has only one shot (With the exception of the combat shotgun, but against bulky targets and groups of mobs, you're going to want to use that double shotty. Face it. You know you want to.)

In addition to that, you are basically allowed to do it only once per level without dependence on the RNG. Perhaps twice. Certainly not enough to help a playstyle, and in my opinion, certainly not good enough to be a master trait.

So, as for balancing, what would I recommend?

I would recommend that this be moved to the scout shotgun master trait, and the requirements being made Shottyman (1) and Dodgemaster (1). The blocked requirements should stay the same. To facilitate this, Fireangel would be moved to the Marine class General master trait, and Survivalist being moved to the scout general master trait (which makes sense, considering that a scout's job is to survive and report information). Why? Well, as it stands, with the limitation to the trait being only while running and having to take 3 extra perks on top of that to utilize the power of the trait properly, it seems to have one too many negatives. One of them needs to be a positive, and the more balanced option would be to make shottyman the requirement so that you can start going guns blazing straight away. As for moving it away from the general master traits? By very nature of it, you can't use Gunrunner with melee weapons, and the description prevents it from being used with rapid-fire weapons (not that I think this would be a good idea). This limits it to the pistol and shotgun - something that is not shared by any of the other master traits (Survivalist just gives you more HP and while it blocks berserker, it doesn't block brute, making even a melee survivalist possible, and Scavenger, while nerfing the other skillsets, doesn't make them unavailable - it also gives you the added benefit of those crazy-ass assemblies even easier, but that's for another thread). Ergo, for balancing purposes, it would be better to simply make it a shotgun master and move Fireangel (which I don't see as a shotgun mastery anyway. What's it for, blowing up barrels on yourself due to the spread? ?_?) to the general section so it can be used with AoPc. (The requirements i'll discuss in another thread.)

What are your thoughts? Do you completely disagree with my assessment? Do you think something totally different? Please post your thoughts and leave your feedback on the Gunrunner master trait!

[Thomas]

I think you're underestimating Gunrunner because of the testing condtions - namely, you're in one of the most dangerous fights of the game and you're not getting the correct #7-#9 traits (rel rel shottyman, of course).

Gunrunner is awesome because of its interaction with shell boxes. Shell boxes take your reloading time down to something in the order of 0.1-0.2s. If you are going towards gunrunner, attempt to hoard shell boxes until you're level 6. Once you get gunrunner but not shottyman, you're in this weird period of time where firing is safer than reloading. It's usually the other way around, right? But this is way better, because it's a million times easier to make reloading safe (shell boxes, hiding behind anything) than it is to make firing safe (hiding behind corner shooting spots, that's about it)

And once you're level 9, you need a contingency plan for viles and revenants, but that's it. Nothing with a miss chance can possibly threaten you for those 45 turns, and the level will almost certainly have at least one healing powerup. Corner shooting is still plan A, but gunrunner is one of the best plan Bs available.

Finally, gunrunner + shell box/shottyman is a perfect excuse to bust out the elephant gun. Regular shotgun + PP for extreme 12d3 power with a downside that you basically ignore.

[Aki]

I think you're underestimating Gunrunner because of the testing condtions - namely, you're in one of the most dangerous fights of the game and you're not getting the correct #7-#9 traits (rel rel shottyman, of course).

Gunrunner is awesome because of its interaction with shell boxes. Shell boxes take your reloading time down to something in the order of 0.1-0.2s. If you are going towards gunrunner, attempt to hoard shell boxes until you're level 7. Once you get gunrunner but not shottyman, you're in this weird period of time where firing is safer than reloading. It's usually the other way around, right? But this is way better, because it's a million times easier to make reloading safe (shell boxes, hiding behind anything) than it is to make firing safe (hiding behind corner shooting spots, that's about it)

And once you're level 9, you need a contingency plan for viles and revenants, but that's it. Nothing with a miss chance can possibly threaten you for those 45 turns, and the level will almost certainly have at least one healing powerup. Corner shooting is still plan A, but gunrunner is one of the best plan Bs available.

Finally, gunrunner + shell box/shottyman is a perfect excuse to bust out the elephant gun. Regular shotgun + PP for extreme 12d3 power with a downside that you basically ignore.

Hi Thomas! It's been a while!

I'm trying to do a few different things at the moment, but I'll certainly give it another go. Perhaps i'll skip the labs this time if I get it so I don't have to deal with those things.

You're right in saying that I probably would have been better going for shottyman. Intuition helps a lot with corner shooting and truth be told, I was just copying that build for a run before I had this idea.

I still don't think that it quite stacks up with the other master traits even given that, however.

As for the elephant gun - I've never tried to make one, always opting for the Tactical Shotgun if the option's available. I would have thought it was stuck between the double shotgun for damage and the combat shotgun for lack of spread.

[Eyro]

Quick question: What would you replace Fireangel with for the Technician? Shottyhead? Or a new Master?

That said, I do agree that the trait shines when you get SM. However, during my run, in the time between getting Gunrunner and SM, I found it extremely useful as just an "Oh shit" button if I turn a corner/spawn near 4 Barons or w/e. I think it's useful for simply making the main point of running (GTFO while dodging) more effective, as the knockback from the shotgun helps you run.

I do think, however, it does make sense as a Shotgun trait, and the Scout's current one (Shottyhead), makes sense as a Tech trait, reducing firing time by 2/3 doesn't seem to be in the realm of "Click faster mans, you practiced starcraft".

[Aki]

Yeah.

While I think that they could use a few tweaks, I personally would prefer it to look like:

Shotty:
Marine: MAD
Scout: MGr
Tech: MSh (With tweaks?)

General:
Marine: MFa
Scout: MSv
Tech: MSc

[Eyro]

Agreed as well. Man think of a Dodgemaster Survivalist scout. Be clearing everything with no damage but it'd take 5x as long to do so. Bwhahaha.


EDIT: Oh, btw, Shamblers do plasma damage, I believe. I think blue armor might've helped you out. They're also resistant to explosions if you tried that.

[Thomas]

^^^^
What is survivalist doing on a non-marine that doesn't even make sense

As for the elephant gun - I've never tried to make one, always opting for the Tactical Shotgun if the option's available. I would have thought it was stuck between the double shotgun for damage and the combat shotgun for lack of spread.

Being stuck in the middle is precisely what it's good for!

The elephant gun's biggest strength is its efficiency. It puts down damage comparable to the double shotgun in one firing action with only one shell. Its damage dropoff is pretty good, so it deals more damage than the combat shotgun at any range and the double shotgun at most ranges. Remember, the double shotgun is two seperate attacks with two seperate damage dropoffs (first knocks them back so the second deals less damage) and two seperate penalties for enemy armour.

The two power mod cost (and the fact that the tactical shotgun is still excellent in most situations) means that most people go for tactical shotgun anyway, but gunrunner/shottyhead scouts are particularly interested in the elephant gun because:
a) Elephant gun pierces armour about as well as Army of the Dead does, which they obviously aren't getting.
b) They aren't necessarily doing all of their fighting behind corners, where the tactical shotgun reigns supreme
c) They're relying on shell boxes, so they don't like swapping weapons. A shotgun that is good at all ranges like the elepahnt gun is handy.

[Aki]

EDIT: Oh, btw, Shamblers do plasma damage, I believe. I think blue armor might've helped you out. They're also resistant to explosions if you tried that.

So they're like bruisers but with plasma damage? Okay, thanks.

^^^^
What is survivalist doing on a non-marine that doesn't even make sense

I put my reasoning in the first post. A scout, traditionally, would be more of a survivalist (in the traditional sense of the word) then a marine who goes in all guns blazing. I personally don't see anything wrong with it, considering Fireangel is more of a "badass" trait (Taking no damage from explosions? Woahhhhh).

Being stuck in the middle is precisely what it's good for!

The elephant gun's biggest strength is its efficiency. It puts down damage comparable to the double shotgun in one firing action with only one shell. Its damage dropoff is pretty good, so it deals more damage than the combat shotgun at any range and the double shotgun at most ranges. Remember, the double shotgun is two seperate attacks with two seperate damage dropoffs (first knocks them back so the second deals less damage) and two seperate penalties for enemy armour.

The two power mod cost (and the fact that the tactical shotgun is still excellent in most situations) means that most people go for tactical shotgun anyway, but gunrunner/shottyhead scouts are particularly interested in the elephant gun because:
a) Elephant gun pierces armour about as well as Army of the Dead does, which they obviously aren't getting.
b) They aren't necessarily doing all of their fighting behind corners, where the tactical shotgun reigns supreme
c) They're relying on shell boxes, so they don't like swapping weapons. A shotgun that is good at all ranges like the elepahnt gun is handy.

I see, I see! Thanks for explaining that to me. I think I might have underestimated the regular shotgun then. I forgot about the Double Shotgun being two seperate shots.

But, the elephant gun pierces armor? I didn't see any such description on the wiki, and last I heard shrapnel is affected by armor twice as much. Unless you meant piercing as in the additional damage?

[Thomas]

Yeah, I did just mean that because it deals more damage per shot it can be a replacement for army of the dead's armour piercing ability.

[Aki]

Yeah, I did just mean that because it deals more damage per shot it can be a replacement for army of the dead's armour piercing ability.

All righty, thanks.

Thomas, after pondering on it a little bit I do see where you're coming from (and I will do another run through later, I swear!), but do you see how it could still be a little underpowered?

What would be your opinion on making it require shottyman and a shotgun trait?

[Thomas]

Getting the entire eats, shoots and leaves move, shoot and fire schtick by level 6 would be insane. Gunrunner as it stands in my eyes, is perhaps 80-90% as powerful as shottyhead/MAD already.

Also, as fireangel and gunrunner are right now, it actually makes more sense for fireangel to be a shotgun trait and gunrunner to be a general trait. Fireangel, even ignoring its requirements, assumes that you are dodging in combat and makes it better. Gunrunner gives you the ability to dodge in combat. If both of them had their requirements/blocks removed, fireangel would still only see play by shotgunners.

By that logic, I guess I'd remove the no-rapidfire restriction on gunrunner. If someone finds a laser rifle halfway through their gunrunner run, who is Kornel to say no? (_{he's the game designer, he gets to say no whenever})

[Aki]

Getting the entire eats, shoots and leaves move, shoot and fire schtick by level 6 would be insane. Gunrunner as it stands in my eyes, is perhaps 80-90% as powerful as shottyhead/MAD already.

Also, as fireangel and gunrunner are right now, it actually makes more sense for fireangel to be a shotgun trait and gunrunner to be a general trait. Fireangel, even ignoring its requirements, assumes that you are dodging in combat and makes it better. Gunrunner gives you the ability to dodge in combat. If both of them had their requirements/blocks removed, fireangel would still only see play by shotgunners.

By that logic, I guess I'd remove the no-rapidfire restriction on gunrunner. If someone finds a laser rifle halfway through their gunrunner run, who is Kornel to say no? (_{he's the game designer, he gets to say no whenever})

Until I give it another playthrough I can't really agree with you on that note - considering it's only used while running. If you were able to do that ALL the time, then i'd agree that it's a bit broken. Perhaps my playstyle is too cautious? I just don't see it up to par with some of the other traits.

As for Fireangel, i'd honestly see the main use of that to be AoPc. Other traits would be more effective in other areas.

You're right about the restrictions, but from a technical and balance perspective I think it'd make more sense the other way around. Logically, too. Running with shotguns is very Doomish and used in a lot of speedruns, but taking a lava bath isn't really exclusive to a shotgun. It'd also be harder to aim a pistol/chaingun/PALSMA rifle while running too, considering the shotgun's fire and forget.

Taking a lava bath is a sign of being a badass, and whilst weilding shotguns makes you a badass, being badass doesn't always require you to have a shotgun. /shot

[Eyro]

Another thing to note: Even if Gunrunner is underpowered compared to the other traits, that doesn't mean it needs to be changed, you gotta consider the prerequisites as well as other traits that go well with it. It might be designed as a "magikarp" Master Trait.

[Aki]

Another thing to note: Even if Gunrunner is underpowered compared to the other traits, that doesn't mean it needs to be changed, you gotta consider the prerequisites as well as other traits that go well with it. It might be designed as a "magikarp" Master Trait.

Indeed, kinda like Ammochain with a modded whizkid plasma rifle. But even after you take Shottyman, it's still only 80-90% as good as MAD and MSh, even in Thomas's opinion (No offense, I just disagree there).

[Eyro]

I dunno, I look at the trait as passing up some demon killing ability for enhancing your survivability (Although killing stuff does help you survive...)

[Aki]

I dunno, I look at the trait as passing up some demon killing ability for enhancing your survivability (Although killing stuff does help you survive...)

Except I don't see it enhancing your survivability more then normal. Those 15 extra turns of running won't really make a HUGE difference.

[Eyro]

When you apply shotgun knockback though...

[Aki]

Unless i'm doing something horribly wrong, and I don't remember it ever working this way in 0.9.9 either, shotguns don't always knockback. Indeed, I can clear hell's arena by corner shooting the barons, but in the very same circumstance fail horribly and have a cacodemon charge straight through my shots and maul me in the face.

[Eyro]

Yeah, I'm wondering though, if that just means that they also moved while you were firing. I've never had one GET CLOSER after I've fired, so I think they just get a move and it looks like they weren't knocked back.

[Aki]

It could be that too, although most monster AIs such as Revs will always try to get closer on a move. As for things like Pain elementals, they go flying around after being hit, so I don't know.

[White Rider]

It could be that too, although most monster AIs such as Revs will always try to get closer on a move.

I have never seen a Revenant move closer toward me after seeing me. It always stops and keeps firing as long as I remain in its LOS.
Are Revenants the Siege Tanks of DoomRL, I wonder...

[Aki]

I have seen a rev on the edge of my sight range move towards me once. But they'll always shoot if they can.

I was more talking on the actions of a monster on a move once they're aware of the player.

I haven't encountered enough Vs to comment on their to-move action but even things such as pain elementals seem to charge towards me on a move.

[2birds1stone]

Yes, Gunrunner is primarily shotgun-specific, and yes, Shottyhead could probably do with a re-tooling/buff, but I don't think making Gunrunner the shotgun mastery is a good idea.

For one thing, I'm not sure that you're correct in writing off pistols as non-synergistic. I've never tried DG/MGr, but free shot every move is better than free shot every dodge; the question is whether it's worth losing the free reloads over this advantage.

To be completely honest, I've always seen Gunrunner as borderline overpowered (specifically, the combination of Gunrunner and Shottyman). 45 turns of bottomless clip blitzkrieg action is kinda silly, the only significant drawback being that it's EXP-intensive. However, if Gunrunner must be buffed, just have it work in conjunction with rapid-fire weapons (which a general trait arguably should).

Finally, a single mortem really doesn't mean anything with regards to a trait or a build. If someone posts a successful fists-only N! run, that doesn't make fists-only a good strategy, it means that the player who did it is exceptionally good at the game (and knows how kill attribution works). In this particular instance, you've essentially said "I struggled using a HMP Explorer build in UV Conqueror, therefore Gunrunner is underpowered". Even if you did really well with that build and beat the game, that wouldn't show that the build was good, it would show that you're good.

W/r/t the tangent, you can ask the wiki about knockback mechanics rather than speculating. Shotguns deal knockback if they deal at least seven points of damage.

[Aki]

Yes, Gunrunner is primarily shotgun-specific, and yes, Shottyhead could probably do with a re-tooling/buff, but I don't think making Gunrunner the shotgun mastery is a good idea.

For one thing, I'm not sure that you're correct in writing off pistols as non-synergistic. I've never tried DG/MGr, but free shot every move is better than free shot every dodge; the question is whether it's worth losing the free reloads over this advantage.

You suffer a noticeable accuracy penalty while running. While this isn't that bad with Eagle Eye, it does require the extra perk. Compared to Gun Kata, you only gain the benefit while running (which is a limited action, I don't know about you guys but I don't see too many medikits and powerups. Not enough to sustain the whole worth of the master trait.), and with Gun Kata you can do it all day, dancing around everything and anything not called a Revenant, and you can still corner shoot them while being careful. (Not that you'd fare any better on a gunrunner pistol build, those things are nasty) You also get the benefit of being able to pick what you're shooting at, which is quite handy when you have a higher tier monster surrounded by imps or something, whereas with Gunrunner you only shoot at the first one.

I'm really not seeing the synergy to be honest. :x

To be completely honest, I've always seen Gunrunner as borderline overpowered (specifically, the combination of Gunrunner and Shottyman). 45 turns of bottomless clip blitzkrieg action is kinda silly, the only significant drawback being that it's EXP-intensive. However, if Gunrunner must be buffed, just have it work in conjunction with rapid-fire weapons (which a general trait arguably should).

I'd be all for that. If it was to remain a general trait, it should work with all weapons.

As for it being overpowered, the 45 turns is exactly the problem. Unless you get really lucky with spawns or are 2dev or blade, you're not clearing out a level in 45 turns. Especially later levels or levels on Ao100 or something. It essentially takes the RNG-dependance of Whizkid but gives you less benefit in return :s

One thing that i'd personally like to see is a small youtube clip or something where Gunrunner is put to good effect. Perhaps seeing it used properly could help me see where you're coming from? Apologies if that sounds presumptuous.

Finally, a single mortem really doesn't mean anything with regards to a trait or a build. If someone posts a successful fists-only N! run, that doesn't make fists-only a good strategy, it means that the player who did it is exceptionally good at the game (and knows how kill attribution works). In this particular instance, you've essentially said "I struggled using a HMP Explorer build in UV Conqueror, therefore Gunrunner is underpowered". Even if you did really well with that build and beat the game, that wouldn't show that the build was good, it would show that you're good.

The Mortem's there to help facilitate discussion, not as a conclusive proof or anything like that. I'm also doing another run when I find the time. As for the build, I did mention that I came up with the idea for the thread when I was halfway through the run, and I was honestly too lazy to just do another run at that stage. Sorry if I made it seem that I was using the mortem as proof, that is NOT the case.

W/r/t the tangent, you can ask the wiki about knockback mechanics rather than speculating. Shotguns deal knockback if they deal at least seven points of damage.

Thank you! I didn't see that we had a page on knockback. Took me a little bit of searching, but I found it. Good to know.

[2birds1stone]

That's odd, I was under the impression that Gunrunner meant no accuracy penalties while running, but neither the wiki nor the game actually state this. I don't recall an embarrassing miss-rate with rocket launchers, but memory's fallible.

Small health globes are the single most likely item to spawn in the game; there are enough other healing items (including invulnerability globes) that I'd be very surprised if you couldn't enter sprint at least twice a level. The idea of Gunrunner isn't to spend entire levels rampaging, it's to pick your rampage times well; in this way, it's a very skill-based mastery. It's useful for those awkward moments when you don't have any cover and just need to dodge around a little while you shoot yourself an escape route. It's useful for moving from a terrible spawn to an easily defendable position. It's fantastic for the Mortuary, and most of the boss fights. It makes absolute mincemeat of Arch-Viles (which Gun Kata can't do so well, seeing as Arch-Vile attacks aren't dodged).

Gunrunner, a bit like an invulnerability globe, allows you to get yourself pretty much anywhere on the map in complete safety. Assuming you have an eye for positioning, this is going to guarantee map clear almost every time.

[Eyro]

2birds basically summed up my thoughts.

I'm finding I like Gunrunner more and more as my "Main Master". It's incredibly fun to use as it can get you out of a tight spot like nothing else, but use it badly and you'll turn a corner with 3 lave barrels in front of you and a imp just chillin' off to the side.

[Aki]

That's odd, I was under the impression that Gunrunner meant no accuracy penalties while running, but neither the wiki nor the game actually state this. I don't recall an embarrassing miss-rate with rocket launchers, but memory's fallible.

Small health globes are the single most likely item to spawn in the game; there are enough other healing items (including invulnerability globes) that I'd be very surprised if you couldn't enter sprint at least twice a level. The idea of Gunrunner isn't to spend entire levels rampaging, it's to pick your rampage times well; in this way, it's a very skill-based mastery. It's useful for those awkward moments when you don't have any cover and just need to dodge around a little while you shoot yourself an escape route. It's useful for moving from a terrible spawn to an easily defendable position. It's fantastic for the Mortuary, and most of the boss fights. It makes absolute mincemeat of Arch-Viles (which Gun Kata can't do so well, seeing as Arch-Vile attacks aren't dodged).

Gunrunner, a bit like an invulnerability globe, allows you to get yourself pretty much anywhere on the map in complete safety. Assuming you have an eye for positioning, this is going to guarantee map clear almost every time.

I tend to do great on Vs once I get Gun Kata. But that's probably because by that point they're just fodder in front of the cleric. Hue hue hue.

I've done a few runs today but haven't had much luck with shitty spawns or luck or impatience getting me a YASD before I could actually pick up the trait. I'm going to give it another go before I comment any more though.

[Sambojin]

Just a few rambling thoughts on comments posted. MSh is a shotgun build, but it's also a fairly generalist shotgun build. Being able to quick-switch to any weapon instantly, SM available for RLs/MLs and not too many other handy traits blocked, all make it a good "any weapon at any time" build, with shotguns having priority.
 
As mentioned, MGR is great with SM. It's also great with bulk-modded MLs. There's more MLs in the game now. Make of that what you will (weapon/quick switch is a fine thing). It's also not bad in "oh shit" situations with a bulked-BFG.

Pistols, shotguns, RLs, MLs and BFGs all working with a master-trait? Sounds pretty generalist to me. None of these weapons actually have priority due to the master-trait, you just tend to use your shotgun more often.
 
It almost makes a micro-launcher seem feasible. Which is a good thing.

Not only are shell boxes ace with MGR, so are rocket packs and plasma batteries. In the right situation of course.

15 extra turns of running is actually pretty nice. Nicer with SM, but it's not a bad thing to reposition/reload either (which is exactly where the trait falls apart without SM). There's plenty of extra running time available, you just have to approach it more like a melee/AoB type game, where medipacks and globes are more like pep-pills than actual health recovery items. If you can do it with a chainsaw, you can definitely do it with a shotgun/ML/BFG.
 

[Sambojin]

Some other thoughts on MGR specifically:

You may have made a "weakish" build of it, but not necessarily. Even one level of EE makes all the "big-kaboom" weapons better. Rel-Rel-SM is awesome as well. Strangely enough, I'd probably either lead with SM, or Jug->SM, with dodgemaster and the master-trait just being icing on the cake. Juggler is a mini-master-trait of it's own, sacrificing backpack space for extreme flexibility (it's right up there with Int(2) in my opinion).

Are you abusing the hell out of Juggler? In this version of the game it gives you the next LOADED weapon from your backpack. It's fiddly and time consuming to do, but you can have the "backpack full of shotties" effect going. Carry a shotgun as your primary. Carry a RL as your secondary. Carry a pistol in your backpack. Carry many more loaded shotguns in your backpack. Move/fire with MGR whilst running, free-switch to pistol (press 2), free-switch to shotgun (press 3). You now have the next loaded shotgun from your backpack in your hands. It works as long as you have 3 weapon types available (one primary with backups, a different secondary, a third "switcher" weapon in your inventory).

So, collect shotguns. Then combat shotties. Then RLs. Then MLs. Then BFGs. Mod them all in the best ways possible. Basically, it's a strange upgrade path to "on-tap" firepower for the cost of a few inventory slots.

It's abusing a mechanic, but the free-switch of Juggler was specifically changed in this version to allow this (and to not grab the next unloaded weapon, like previous versions). Maybe not for this use, but it was changed to grab the weapon with the most ammo available.

Does this make MGR more feasible? Yep. Very much so. Start a weapon collection, it's worth it.

Another point, does everyone have their MLs bound to a quick-switch key? If not, do so immediately. It's very useful with Juggler (even though the OP died on the ML getting level, the point still stands).

[Sylph]

I know I'm a touch late to the part here (I've been away) but I feel people in this thread are writing off the pistol-using ability of this trait too much.

I wouldn't call it a shotgun-centric master trait. it's true that it's probably most focused on shotgun use, but I find it great with pistols, too. A few A mods, or EE, in combination with SOAG, and using juggler to keep your pistol/combat pistol loaded, is very powerful.
Of *COURSE* it's not as powerful as Gunkata, but gunkata only works with pistols, this trait works with shotguns and rocketlaunchers (as discussed) which makes it superior in a non-AoMr pistol-based build, and I think this point is key. You can still take SOAG outside of AoMR, and it works very well with this trait.

[Shadowfury333]

Are you abusing the hell out of Juggler? In this version of the game it gives you the next LOADED weapon from your backpack. It's fiddly and time consuming to do, but you can have the "backpack full of shotties" effect going.

While I'm not that experienced of a player, I find that trying that Unlimited Shotgun Works setup tends to run out of steam around Phobos level 4-7 on HMP or UV, as you start to need more room for ammo and medkits. At first having a dozen shotguns works out okay, but after that point I find I'm hard-pressed to keep 6 at once in my inventory, which isn't reliable for picking off half a dozen demons. On the other hand, Combat Shotguns start to turn up around that time, but that doesn't seem to be what you are thinking about w.r.t. MGr.