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Author Topic: Master trait discussion 1: Gunrunner  (Read 18051 times)

Aki

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Re: Master trait discussion 1: Gunrunner
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2013, 19:23 »

I dunno, I look at the trait as passing up some demon killing ability for enhancing your survivability (Although killing stuff does help you survive...)

Except I don't see it enhancing your survivability more then normal. Those 15 extra turns of running won't really make a HUGE difference.
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Eyro

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Re: Master trait discussion 1: Gunrunner
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2013, 20:21 »

When you apply shotgun knockback though...
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Aki

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Re: Master trait discussion 1: Gunrunner
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2013, 22:43 »

Unless i'm doing something horribly wrong, and I don't remember it ever working this way in 0.9.9 either, shotguns don't always knockback. Indeed, I can clear hell's arena by corner shooting the barons, but in the very same circumstance fail horribly and have a cacodemon charge straight through my shots and maul me in the face.
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Eyro

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Re: Master trait discussion 1: Gunrunner
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2013, 07:47 »

Yeah, I'm wondering though, if that just means that they also moved while you were firing. I've never had one GET CLOSER after I've fired, so I think they just get a move and it looks like they weren't knocked back.
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Aki

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Re: Master trait discussion 1: Gunrunner
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2013, 07:55 »

It could be that too, although most monster AIs such as Revs will always try to get closer on a move. As for things like Pain elementals, they go flying around after being hit, so I don't know.
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White Rider

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Re: Master trait discussion 1: Gunrunner
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2013, 22:40 »

It could be that too, although most monster AIs such as Revs will always try to get closer on a move.

I have never seen a Revenant move closer toward me after seeing me. It always stops and keeps firing as long as I remain in its LOS.
Are Revenants the Siege Tanks of DoomRL, I wonder...
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Aki

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Re: Master trait discussion 1: Gunrunner
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2013, 22:48 »

I have seen a rev on the edge of my sight range move towards me once. But they'll always shoot if they can.

I was more talking on the actions of a monster on a move once they're aware of the player.

I haven't encountered enough Vs to comment on their to-move action but even things such as pain elementals seem to charge towards me on a move.
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2birds1stone

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Re: Master trait discussion 1: Gunrunner
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2013, 06:00 »

Yes, Gunrunner is primarily shotgun-specific, and yes, Shottyhead could probably do with a re-tooling/buff, but I don't think making Gunrunner the shotgun mastery is a good idea.

For one thing, I'm not sure that you're correct in writing off pistols as non-synergistic. I've never tried DG/MGr, but free shot every move is better than free shot every dodge; the question is whether it's worth losing the free reloads over this advantage.

To be completely honest, I've always seen Gunrunner as borderline overpowered (specifically, the combination of Gunrunner and Shottyman). 45 turns of bottomless clip blitzkrieg action is kinda silly, the only significant drawback being that it's EXP-intensive. However, if Gunrunner must be buffed, just have it work in conjunction with rapid-fire weapons (which a general trait arguably should).

Finally, a single mortem really doesn't mean anything with regards to a trait or a build. If someone posts a successful fists-only N! run, that doesn't make fists-only a good strategy, it means that the player who did it is exceptionally good at the game (and knows how kill attribution works). In this particular instance, you've essentially said "I struggled using a HMP Explorer build in UV Conqueror, therefore Gunrunner is underpowered". Even if you did really well with that build and beat the game, that wouldn't show that the build was good, it would show that you're good.

W/r/t the tangent, you can ask the wiki about knockback mechanics rather than speculating. Shotguns deal knockback if they deal at least seven points of damage.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 06:02 by 2birds1stone »
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Aki

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Re: Master trait discussion 1: Gunrunner
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2013, 08:52 »

Yes, Gunrunner is primarily shotgun-specific, and yes, Shottyhead could probably do with a re-tooling/buff, but I don't think making Gunrunner the shotgun mastery is a good idea.

For one thing, I'm not sure that you're correct in writing off pistols as non-synergistic. I've never tried DG/MGr, but free shot every move is better than free shot every dodge; the question is whether it's worth losing the free reloads over this advantage.

You suffer a noticeable accuracy penalty while running. While this isn't that bad with Eagle Eye, it does require the extra perk. Compared to Gun Kata, you only gain the benefit while running (which is a limited action, I don't know about you guys but I don't see too many medikits and powerups. Not enough to sustain the whole worth of the master trait.), and with Gun Kata you can do it all day, dancing around everything and anything not called a Revenant, and you can still corner shoot them while being careful. (Not that you'd fare any better on a gunrunner pistol build, those things are nasty) You also get the benefit of being able to pick what you're shooting at, which is quite handy when you have a higher tier monster surrounded by imps or something, whereas with Gunrunner you only shoot at the first one.

I'm really not seeing the synergy to be honest. :x

Quote
To be completely honest, I've always seen Gunrunner as borderline overpowered (specifically, the combination of Gunrunner and Shottyman). 45 turns of bottomless clip blitzkrieg action is kinda silly, the only significant drawback being that it's EXP-intensive. However, if Gunrunner must be buffed, just have it work in conjunction with rapid-fire weapons (which a general trait arguably should).

I'd be all for that. If it was to remain a general trait, it should work with all weapons.

As for it being overpowered, the 45 turns is exactly the problem. Unless you get really lucky with spawns or are 2dev or blade, you're not clearing out a level in 45 turns. Especially later levels or levels on Ao100 or something. It essentially takes the RNG-dependance of Whizkid but gives you less benefit in return :s

One thing that i'd personally like to see is a small youtube clip or something where Gunrunner is put to good effect. Perhaps seeing it used properly could help me see where you're coming from? Apologies if that sounds presumptuous.

Quote
Finally, a single mortem really doesn't mean anything with regards to a trait or a build. If someone posts a successful fists-only N! run, that doesn't make fists-only a good strategy, it means that the player who did it is exceptionally good at the game (and knows how kill attribution works). In this particular instance, you've essentially said "I struggled using a HMP Explorer build in UV Conqueror, therefore Gunrunner is underpowered". Even if you did really well with that build and beat the game, that wouldn't show that the build was good, it would show that you're good.

The Mortem's there to help facilitate discussion, not as a conclusive proof or anything like that. I'm also doing another run when I find the time. As for the build, I did mention that I came up with the idea for the thread when I was halfway through the run, and I was honestly too lazy to just do another run at that stage. Sorry if I made it seem that I was using the mortem as proof, that is NOT the case.

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W/r/t the tangent, you can ask the wiki about knockback mechanics rather than speculating. Shotguns deal knockback if they deal at least seven points of damage.

Thank you! I didn't see that we had a page on knockback. Took me a little bit of searching, but I found it. Good to know.
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2birds1stone

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Re: Master trait discussion 1: Gunrunner
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2013, 20:10 »

That's odd, I was under the impression that Gunrunner meant no accuracy penalties while running, but neither the wiki nor the game actually state this. I don't recall an embarrassing miss-rate with rocket launchers, but memory's fallible.

Small health globes are the single most likely item to spawn in the game; there are enough other healing items (including invulnerability globes) that I'd be very surprised if you couldn't enter sprint at least twice a level. The idea of Gunrunner isn't to spend entire levels rampaging, it's to pick your rampage times well; in this way, it's a very skill-based mastery. It's useful for those awkward moments when you don't have any cover and just need to dodge around a little while you shoot yourself an escape route. It's useful for moving from a terrible spawn to an easily defendable position. It's fantastic for the Mortuary, and most of the boss fights. It makes absolute mincemeat of Arch-Viles (which Gun Kata can't do so well, seeing as Arch-Vile attacks aren't dodged).

Gunrunner, a bit like an invulnerability globe, allows you to get yourself pretty much anywhere on the map in complete safety. Assuming you have an eye for positioning, this is going to guarantee map clear almost every time.
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Eyro

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Re: Master trait discussion 1: Gunrunner
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2013, 21:31 »

2birds basically summed up my thoughts.

I'm finding I like Gunrunner more and more as my "Main Master". It's incredibly fun to use as it can get you out of a tight spot like nothing else, but use it badly and you'll turn a corner with 3 lave barrels in front of you and a imp just chillin' off to the side.
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Aki

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Re: Master trait discussion 1: Gunrunner
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2013, 00:58 »

That's odd, I was under the impression that Gunrunner meant no accuracy penalties while running, but neither the wiki nor the game actually state this. I don't recall an embarrassing miss-rate with rocket launchers, but memory's fallible.

Small health globes are the single most likely item to spawn in the game; there are enough other healing items (including invulnerability globes) that I'd be very surprised if you couldn't enter sprint at least twice a level. The idea of Gunrunner isn't to spend entire levels rampaging, it's to pick your rampage times well; in this way, it's a very skill-based mastery. It's useful for those awkward moments when you don't have any cover and just need to dodge around a little while you shoot yourself an escape route. It's useful for moving from a terrible spawn to an easily defendable position. It's fantastic for the Mortuary, and most of the boss fights. It makes absolute mincemeat of Arch-Viles (which Gun Kata can't do so well, seeing as Arch-Vile attacks aren't dodged).

Gunrunner, a bit like an invulnerability globe, allows you to get yourself pretty much anywhere on the map in complete safety. Assuming you have an eye for positioning, this is going to guarantee map clear almost every time.

I tend to do great on Vs once I get Gun Kata. But that's probably because by that point they're just fodder in front of the cleric. Hue hue hue.

I've done a few runs today but haven't had much luck with shitty spawns or luck or impatience getting me a YASD before I could actually pick up the trait. I'm going to give it another go before I comment any more though.
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Sambojin

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Re: Master trait discussion 1: Gunrunner
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2013, 20:07 »

Just a few rambling thoughts on comments posted. MSh is a shotgun build, but it's also a fairly generalist shotgun build. Being able to quick-switch to any weapon instantly, SM available for RLs/MLs and not too many other handy traits blocked, all make it a good "any weapon at any time" build, with shotguns having priority.
 
As mentioned, MGR is great with SM. It's also great with bulk-modded MLs. There's more MLs in the game now. Make of that what you will (weapon/quick switch is a fine thing). It's also not bad in "oh shit" situations with a bulked-BFG.

Pistols, shotguns, RLs, MLs and BFGs all working with a master-trait? Sounds pretty generalist to me. None of these weapons actually have priority due to the master-trait, you just tend to use your shotgun more often.
 
It almost makes a micro-launcher seem feasible. Which is a good thing.

Not only are shell boxes ace with MGR, so are rocket packs and plasma batteries. In the right situation of course.

15 extra turns of running is actually pretty nice. Nicer with SM, but it's not a bad thing to reposition/reload either (which is exactly where the trait falls apart without SM). There's plenty of extra running time available, you just have to approach it more like a melee/AoB type game, where medipacks and globes are more like pep-pills than actual health recovery items. If you can do it with a chainsaw, you can definitely do it with a shotgun/ML/BFG.
 
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 20:24 by Sambojin »
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Sambojin

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Re: Master trait discussion 1: Gunrunner
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2013, 22:09 »

Some other thoughts on MGR specifically:

You may have made a "weakish" build of it, but not necessarily. Even one level of EE makes all the "big-kaboom" weapons better. Rel-Rel-SM is awesome as well. Strangely enough, I'd probably either lead with SM, or Jug->SM, with dodgemaster and the master-trait just being icing on the cake. Juggler is a mini-master-trait of it's own, sacrificing backpack space for extreme flexibility (it's right up there with Int(2) in my opinion).

Are you abusing the hell out of Juggler? In this version of the game it gives you the next LOADED weapon from your backpack. It's fiddly and time consuming to do, but you can have the "backpack full of shotties" effect going. Carry a shotgun as your primary. Carry a RL as your secondary. Carry a pistol in your backpack. Carry many more loaded shotguns in your backpack. Move/fire with MGR whilst running, free-switch to pistol (press 2), free-switch to shotgun (press 3). You now have the next loaded shotgun from your backpack in your hands. It works as long as you have 3 weapon types available (one primary with backups, a different secondary, a third "switcher" weapon in your inventory).

So, collect shotguns. Then combat shotties. Then RLs. Then MLs. Then BFGs. Mod them all in the best ways possible. Basically, it's a strange upgrade path to "on-tap" firepower for the cost of a few inventory slots.

It's abusing a mechanic, but the free-switch of Juggler was specifically changed in this version to allow this (and to not grab the next unloaded weapon, like previous versions). Maybe not for this use, but it was changed to grab the weapon with the most ammo available.

Does this make MGR more feasible? Yep. Very much so. Start a weapon collection, it's worth it.

Another point, does everyone have their MLs bound to a quick-switch key? If not, do so immediately. It's very useful with Juggler (even though the OP died on the ML getting level, the point still stands).
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Sylph

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Re: Master trait discussion 1: Gunrunner
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2013, 15:33 »

I know I'm a touch late to the part here (I've been away) but I feel people in this thread are writing off the pistol-using ability of this trait too much.

I wouldn't call it a shotgun-centric master trait. it's true that it's probably most focused on shotgun use, but I find it great with pistols, too. A few A mods, or EE, in combination with SOAG, and using juggler to keep your pistol/combat pistol loaded, is very powerful.
Of *COURSE* it's not as powerful as Gunkata, but gunkata only works with pistols, this trait works with shotguns and rocketlaunchers (as discussed) which makes it superior in a non-AoMr pistol-based build, and I think this point is key. You can still take SOAG outside of AoMR, and it works very well with this trait.
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