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Author Topic: help from the great ones plz?  (Read 8789 times)

ultimate26

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help from the great ones plz?
« on: January 29, 2007, 16:36 »

hey people! i started playing again, and most of the time i go for shotty man then EE, i walk with a chaingun and a combat shotgun... is chaingun any good if i have shottyman with combat shotgun?  wich one does more damage? once i get combat shotgun and shottyman should i get rid of my chaingun?
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Anticheese

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Re: help from the great ones plz?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2007, 01:20 »

Cthulhu is out at the moment and Hastur is having his lunch. Can I take a message?

*Ahem*

Weapons show their damage in the form of xdy - X is the number of sides on the dice and Y is how many times you roll the dice. Say you have 2D6 - That will roll a standard six sided dice twice to determine the damage. The result will be between 2 and 12.

At the end of the day its up to you to figure out which weapon is better. Peoples playstyles will always vary and its up to you to find out which one is right for you.

--

P.S - Kudos if you got the reference RE Great (old) ones.
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Blade

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Re: help from the great ones plz?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2007, 01:47 »

I can add that it seems to me that EE don't affects accuracy of shotgun, shotgun already hits the target always. Also remember that shotgun have much less damage if you firing it from a long distance. So you can keep your chaingun for long distance, and shotgun for short.
I usually take on of them because lack of space in inventory: or shotgun path, or chaingun path, and, accordingly, perks: EE for chaingun, or Reloader + Shottyman for shotgun.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: help from the great ones plz?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2007, 01:57 »

Malek IS Hastur BTW :P. I can be Cthulhu or Nyarlathotep then :P
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BDR

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Re: help from the great ones plz?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2007, 02:44 »

Shotguns vs. Chainguns, eh?

Shotguns are 6d3, which means their damage ranges from 6-18 hps worth of damage (let's just say that this is near-kill damage for most early enemies and a nice chunk for later ones); however, this damage decreases over range, so a shot that would have done 18 hps of damage up close only does about 5 when fired at something 7-8 tiles away.  If you can afford to get within medium/short/melee range and are sure you can shoot/reload/shoot again/etc. without taking a lot of damage, they can work very well, but if not, they will cause you a lot of frustration (and deaths).  I don't usually use shotguns, but if you're going to use them you'll probably want to get a double shotgun as soon as you can find one (since as the name suggests it has two barrels to shoot two spreads for 6d3x2 damage, translating to 12-36 hps worth of damage), especially when you hit the late game with caves of Arachs and Arch-Viles (both of which are rather healthy and will take several shots even at close range, and which can really tear you up if you take too long to kill them; the Arch-Vile may not show/may only show up 3-4 times if you pick ITYTD, but even so he is the worst normal enemy in the normal game cycle you can come across, and the Arach's plasma rifle-esque weapon is no picnic either [and those WILL show up in ITYTD for sure, in numbers]).  I also think you might have to take another weapon as well for the times when you need something dead but can't afford it health-wise to get closer; the shotgun doesn't do much good at long-range and some of the tougher monsters can easily fry you while you're on your way over.

Chainguns are 1d6x5, which means that their damage ranges from 5-30 hps worth of damage.  This is IMO the easier of the two to work with, since as long as you have some EE and plenty of ammo they can be very, very potent against early and mid-game enemies.  Reloader can help here too, since the chaingun has a long reload time.  Be forewarned, however, that each bullet gets damage taken off seperately when fired against an enemy wearing armor/that possesses natural armor.  If you shoot a human commando and hit with every bullet and he survives, it's because he's got 2 points of armor and 20 hps, and you didn't get all your bullets to do 6 hps of damage (6 x 5 = 30, 6 - 2 = 4, 4 x 5 = 20).  Son of a Bitch (which makes you do one hp worth of damage more per bullet) can be a good idea here though, as this not only will compensate for armor but also help to seriously tear up non-armored/under-armored enemies (5-30 hp + 1 SoB = 10-35 hps; +2 SoB = 15-40 hps; +3 SoB = 20-45 hps).  Of course, the downside of taking SoB is that you won't be able to take things like Ironman, Hellrunner, or Finesse, which can more directly raise your chances of survival/killing them before they can kill you.  One last thing: If you go the chaingun route, you will also want to have a plasma rifle on hand, as it does 1d8x8 damage (8-64 hps of damage) and can be overcharged to fire all 40 shots at once (which is only something you do when you find a second plasma rifle, but which when done will let you seriously harm things like Arachs and Hell Barons within the same timeframe as a normal blast).  In fact, the SoB trait is even more useful with the plasma rifle than it is with the chaingun (since instead of adding 5 hps of damage per level, it adds 8 [16-72, 24-80, and 32-88 respective to each level of SoB]).

In the end, it does depend on how you want to play.  I don't go with shotguns usually because my playstyle is to avoid blow-for-blow confrontations whenever possible and that's nearly impossible to do well with shotguns (AFAIK at least, if you've got some mad strat then I'd like to hear it).  With chainguns and plasma rifles (even with pistols) you can go just out of the line of sight and still get the same level of damage that you would have if you'd shot them from one tile away, and to me that works nicely since then the enemy starts the battle at a disadvantage (at least, it will when better AI is implemented; at the moment the enemies can sadly get so distracted that you can kill them from out of the line of sight without them even moving [under the right conditions anyway.. >_>]) and I can save medkits/armor strength for another battle.  But I know that shotguns are a cool item anyway and that it is possible to use them well, so I have no reason to say that chainguns are necessarily better than shotguns.
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Styro

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Re: help from the great ones plz?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2007, 08:29 »

BDR's comments match my thoughts exactly. I really like the idea of shotguns, but have not had very good luck playing with the SG strategy. I always go the Chaingun route and dump my shotguns first when I run out of space.

If I found an advanced double shotgun early (before I had put points into the chaingun path) I would be tempted to do a shottyman game. I actually hope there will be a shottyman challenge game in a future version.
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TFoN

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Re: help from the great ones plz?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2007, 12:13 »

Same here.

But I'll note that SoaB isn't really "better" for a PR than it is for a CG - it's more damage per trigger, but just like with a CG, armor's a serious factor too, so it balances out.
In fact, I find SoaB to be better for CGs, as a 1-point-increase to 3.5avgdmg (per shot) is larger than that same point for the PR's 4.5avgdmg, proportionally speaking. I.e. ((3.5+1)/3.5)>((4.5+1)/4.5).

Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: help from the great ones plz?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2007, 22:00 »

Someone please put BDR's comment into the wiki (if he agrees) -- it's the first DoomRL related scientific paper that I saw :D
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TFoN

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Re: help from the great ones plz?
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2007, 03:56 »

The moment BDR states his permission, I'll activate the Strategy Guides page (assuming no-one else gets there before me :) ).

BDR

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Re: help from the great ones plz?
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2007, 06:41 »

>_> Scientific paper is stretching it.. but I will gladly give my permission for the information to be put in the Wiki. :)
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TFoN

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Re: help from the great ones plz?
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2007, 10:15 »

http://doom.chaosforge.org/wiki/index.php?title=Chaingun_vs._Shotgun
Gratz, you're in ;)

If anyone feels like writing a more pro-SG POV, I'll add it in together with BDR's, for two complementing articles.

BDR

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Re: help from the great ones plz?
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2007, 15:32 »

Something else you may want to add (since it was mentioned in the original post): If you do go with the shotgun route, the combat shotgun is great before you get Shottyman (since you don't have to stand still reloading with enemies in view nearly as often as with the normal shotgun), but once you have it you'll be reloading every time you move anyway (and while speed is good when you're really fast, IMO the Reloader trait hasn't seemed to speed my reloads up enough by itself to cover for the increased probability of getting hit, under which you'll prefer to move and then have a slightly lesser chance of being hit), so there's not as much point to the 5 round clip (since now as long you move/shoot/move/shoot/etc. and keep your total supply of shells up you'll never run out of ammo in a firefight).  I could however be wrong on the whole Reloader point, and I think it may be possible to get two slightly different sorts of builds after getting Shottyman: Reloader (3) > Finesse (2) > etc. (for maximizing fire rate), and Hellrunner (3) > etc. (for maximizing dodge rate)  I think one thing that may be required either way, though, is Ironman, due to the amount of punishment you'll inevitably end up taking; how much and when I don't know, but if you still have only 50 HP by the time Hell Barons and Arachs show up you'll be in dire straits if you can't find ways to shorten combat/avoid taking hits, and shotguns don't inherently do either all that well until you close the distance (unless you get lucky and wind up in close quarters with your prey [demons are the purest kind of fodder in these cases, though the quarters can't be too close or else you won't have room to move away]).
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TFoN

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Re: help from the great ones plz?
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2007, 05:43 »

I'll likely put this in later.


CmbtSGs are useful also with Shottyman, as a pump action costs 2 ticks, which is much less than a move can ever be (AFAIK). That means that if you need to get one more shot in, almost immediately, and you still have shells left in your rifle, you can 'r'-pump instead of moving.

ultimate26

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Re: help from the great ones plz?
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2007, 17:32 »

woa... looks like it was more serious than it was supposed to be, lol 

so basically if i get shottyman and im in a fight, its better to "r" than to move?  and once i get a double shotty i can get rid of a CG?  what if i find a special CG with upgrades? should i choose the CG rather than keeping normal non boosted shotguns?  and overall CG is more balanced than the shotgun rite?  or in the end double shotty is much more useful than a CG?   i always have a double, PR, RL,BFG...

and might not be important but, should i keep the chainsaw? im always wondering if i should had gotten it...
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TFoN

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Re: help from the great ones plz?
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2007, 06:40 »

Ahh, I think you lost us, dude.

It's often cheaper time-wise to 'r' than to move, but if you move, you're increasing your dodge rate for that turn (alot if you have Hellrunner), you can be stepping out of a monster's LOS, moving between two monsters (so they'll shoot each other) and if you're fighting melee monsters, your one-space retreat can mean everything.
Still, together with the 40% decrease in reload time from the Reloader(2), and certainly if you're also holding a fast reload weapon or a CmbtSG with shells left in it, 'r'eloading can be something to consider, as 2 ticks passing for a shell pump, instead of 10 (right?) for moving, can mean taking one less shot from an Arachnotron.
Which is better to do should be chosen on a case to case basis.

Now, I'm a CG person, too. They're solid hitters at any range, once you put a couple of ranks into EE. SGs, of any type, although they cannot literally miss, have a range limited by their long-range damage reduction, meaning they get weaker at longer ranges, and are 100% useless after a certain distance. So, DblSGs are killers at short range, but a CG put to good use is a killer at any range. Problem is that CGs're mostly one-target weapons - you may be lucky and have some after-kill shots hit the next enemy, but that's not much to count on.

PRs are "bonus weapons" IMO - they're tough as hell, but consider that you only get 50/8=6.25 shots per ammo stack (CGs get 100/5=20, DblSGs get 50/2=25, RLs get 10/1=10. BFGs get 50/40=1.25 :) ).

RLs are great. Keep one around, and 20-30 rockets. I always have at least EE(1), to keep them hitting.

Chainsaws are great for some and useless for others. I carry it around until I need that space for something better. If I find another one later (at the Spider's Lair), I'll carry it around until it's again a waste of space.


Now I'll add that a SG of any type can be used as a "scanner" - because they're effectively area-of-effect weapons, you can shoot in a certain direction, and listen for screams. If there are any, then you know there's something there.
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