General > Discussion
Idea: implementation of a KeyMovie variant for faster online Crawling
Kornel Kisielewicz:
To be honest I don't get it mostly xD. What is it supposed to achieve? Just a bandwidth reduction? Also note that it would mean that the game would have to be ran on both machines...
Aerton:
--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on February 01, 2007, 05:42 ---To be honest I don't get it mostly xD. What is it supposed to achieve? Just a bandwidth reduction? Also note that it would mean that the game would have to be ran on both machines...
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Yeah, it will reduce bandwidth considerably (But even if you send one byte containing pressed key, a lot more data actually travel across the wire - addresses, packets headers, minimum packet size enforcement, etc)
More important, you can allow observer to use some commands that do not perform any action, such as browsing inventory or character sheet.
--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on February 01, 2007, 05:07 ---Well, why not push that idea to the extreme! Why not make a single-player SHARED WORLD roguelike game? ....
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Reminds me of door games on BBSs ten years ago...
I think it can be a fun addition to a single player game, but only if was a good game prior to addition.
TFoN:
--- Quote from: Aerton on February 01, 2007, 07:04 ---Yeah, it will reduce bandwidth considerably (But even if you send one byte containing pressed key, a lot more data actually travel across the wire - addresses, packets headers, minimum packet size enforcement, etc)
More important, you can allow observer to use some commands that do not perform any action, such as browsing inventory or character sheet.
--- End quote ---
That's not nearly as much data as is sent right now AFAIK, so it's Ok.
The game running on both machines shouldn't be a problem at all. It seems the games are currently run on the host computer, so there shouldn't be any additional strain on it. The resource consumption on the guest computers, at most the equivalent of running an offline game, should be much more than manageable. The resulting fast play should be well worth those resources.
But consider that if game recording leads to faster online play, then the next step in development should be very interesting indeed. Fact is that Aerton already came up with allowing some watcher intervention, and that's just in the scope of a few of hours.
I'm guessing that if this whole thing is implemented, then yes, a fast, functional, and most of all free (as a drastic reduction in bandwidth requirements would mean much less for the maintainers to pay for), MMORLRPG would be near. And could be followed, or preceeded, by who knows what.
But for all this to happen, it needs to be determined whether or not this idea can realistically work, either now or with some changes.
Here's the run down, so far:
* Game and save files are present and saved on host.
* Game data as required will be present on guest(player/watcher). If this is mostly the entire game, then it can certainly be a downloaded copy for offline play - in any event, only keystrokes will be sent to the host, with the exception of checksum tests.
* On game start/continue (effectively level travel), RNG state and level layout are sent to guest(player) computer, and loaded into the game.
* Player action is sent to host and duplicated there.
* If the action is level travel, the new level is created/loaded at host and sent to guest, together with RNG state. Else, host waits for another action.
* Watchers recieve actions and level travel results from host, as host recieves them from guest(player). Watchers do not send any data back to host.
* Watcher can intervene, for purposes of inventory, skill and spell list inquiry. Then, either current game data is sent to guest(watcher) by exiting the list, or the game goes on in the background while the list is open (this will require open/close list commands to not influence the RNG, at least for the watcher).
IMO it will make cheating possible on the guest computer, but since the changes won't be recorded into the host's game, that doesn't really matter. It will just make games amusing to watch externally, as the player collides with a wall for no reason :)
EDIT: some minor changes to text.
Kornel Kisielewicz:
The way you described it it is very prone to cheating (any MMORPG designer will tell you that). Foremost, the player can intercept the sent data and see the level he currently visits xD.
Adral:
Hey lots of ideas here!
--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on February 01, 2007, 05:07 ---I watched the Crawl server lot, and had an idea: Who needs multiplayer anyway??
Let me explain. Roguelikes were made as competetive solo games. As such they were not intended to be "multi-player" but "singleplayer" with he feeling of competition or parallel gameplay. Why do people play on the server instead of their own computer?
1) to have a single score list
2) to watch other people play
3) to have the feeling that they're not alone here
Number 3 is crucial. How does the crawl server achieve that? BONES.
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You are forgetting one thing - learning from other players via example and chatting a bit about your game or other people's games, in a place where you know everyone interested is free to take a look at real time at the things you are talking about. It helps to number 3 :)
I find it fun to be able to ask questions, chat a bit, etc, about the games in progress, but I understand many people will find it unnecesay or even boring. That's why there is also an offline version.
--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on February 01, 2007, 05:07 ---When I thought about that, an idea sprang to my mind... It started with the fun idea -- why not give the ability to use those blank scrolls to write down messages, and the scroll would be saved with the player ghost... then another player could defeat the ghost and pick up the paper and read a message "Dammit, there are tons of killer bees on this level, and they blocked my exit... if you read this, then it means I didn't make it...". Sounds fun?
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Sounds real fun. Unfortunately seems your idea really didn't "get accepted" at rgrm. But I'd write silly notes for my characters, of course :P
--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on February 01, 2007, 05:07 ---Well, why not push that idea to the extreme! Why not make a single-player SHARED WORLD roguelike game?? No need to solve time-related problems, as everyone would be livining in the pace they want to. The game would trickyly disallow the characters making changes on the same level, and you would never meet a character in person, but you would constantly witness the effects of other characters doings. Imagine the BONES idea exaggarated to the maximum. Also things like trade between characters via a shop system would be possible. Many, many, many ideas for that I would have, and it wouldn't be too hard to implement... what do you all think? :]
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Sounds really nice, but can you please elaborate it a bit? What is the plan? What would be changed, and what not? How would we (as players) see that?
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And TFoN, I'm really sorry but I really don't follow you. Is the idea to play everyone at once on the same levels? Or is it similar to Kornel's (certain actions creat consequences for everyone)? As someone pointed out, there's TomeNET out there already, does it resemble in some aspect what you are proposing?
A MMORLRPG sounds fun, but the execution may well be not fun at all. That's why I'm asking so much, because a fun MMORL would certainly be something to witness and play with abandon. :P
I find the idea really interesting.
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