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[Zalminen]

I don't think I've ever used Scavenger outside of Ao100 as it always felt too RNG dependent to me.

Even on Ao100 I pretty much used it so I could eventually complete the assembly list, not because it felt useful on its own.

[Aki]

Actually, that's something that I may as well address in this thread as well: Scavenger, and what do you think of it?

It does feel too RNG dependant and unless you get REALLY lucky with uniques and then disassembling them, you don't get much, if anything, out of it. It also blocks way too may things.

Although, it would be hard to balance - if it gave a modpack of your choosing on disassembling a ranged unique, things could get out of hand really fast on a lucky game.

The luck argument could be made for any master trait too, though. Nanoshrapnel SSG on shottyhead game or something ridiculous like that.

I'd like to see what people think of that, too.

[White Rider]

Alright so I'm just gonna drop this here

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (0.9.9.7) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 White Rider, level 11 Cyberdemon Br. General Technician,
 sacrificed himself to kill the Mastermind at the Hell Fortress.
 He survived 124036 turns and scored 117534 points.
 He played for 1 hour, 32 minutes and 59 seconds.
 He didn't like it too rough.

 He killed 664 out of 703 hellspawn. (94%)
 He held his right to remain violent.

 He saved himself 15 times.

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 11
  Levels visited   : 8
  Levels completed : 8

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  Cyberdemon's Head
  UAC Star (silver cluster)
  Hell Armorer Badge
  Hell Champion Medal

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ............................................B.............#
  ..........................................................#
  ...................................................X......#
  ..........................................................#
  .........................................B................#
  ..........................................................#
  .............................................B....X.......#
  ...............................................B..........#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ................................................B.........#
  ............................................B.............#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 0/50   Experience 55746/11
  ToHit Ranged +4  ToHit Melee +6  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +3

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Technician

    Hellrunner       (Level 1)
    Son of a gun     (Level 2)
    Eagle Eye        (Level 2)
    Brute            (Level 1)
    Intuition        (Level 2)
    Whizkid          (Level 2)
    Scavenger        (Level 1)

  SoG->SoG->EE->EE->Int->Int->WK->WK->MSc->Bru->HR->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   nothing
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   missile launcher (6d9) [1/4] (F1N1P3)
    [c] [ Boots      ]   tactical boots [0/0] (100%) (A)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   shell box (x36)

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] plasmatic shotgun (8d3) [1/1]
    [b] red armor [4/4] (100%) (N)
    [c] red armor [2/4] (41%)
    [d] plasma shield [0/0] (100%)
    [e] chainsaw (4d6)
    [f] shotgun shell (x36)
    [g] shotgun shell (x70)
    [h] shotgun shell (x70)
    [i] shotgun shell (x70)
    [j] large med-pack
    [k] large med-pack
    [l] large med-pack
    [m] envirosuit pack
    [n] envirosuit pack
    [o] technical mod pack
    [p] agility mod pack
    [q] bulk mod pack
    [r] bulk mod pack
    [s] blood skull
    [t] plasteel boots [4/4] (93%) (APT)

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    None

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    103 former humans
    61 former sergeants
    22 former captains
    84 imps
    71 demons
    196 lost souls
    28 cacodemons
    20 hell knights
    22 barons of hell
    22 arachnotrons
    4 former commandos
    11 pain elementals
    4 revenants
    1 mancubus
    1 arch-vile
    5 elite former humans
    2 elite former sergeants
    2 bruiser brothers
    1 shambler
    1 agony elemental
    1 Cyberdemon
    1 Spider Mastermind
    1 Arena Master

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 2 he entered Hell's Arena.
  He left the Arena as a champion!
  On level 5 he stormed the Chained Court.
  He defeated the Hell Arena Master!
  On level 5 he found the Arena Master's Staff!
  On level 7 he marched into the Military Base.
  On level 7 he assembled a micro launcher!
  He purified his fellow comrades.
  On level 8 he encountered the Phobos Anomaly.
  On level 9 he entered Hell's Armory.
  He destroyed the evil within and reaped the rewards!
  On level 11 he witnessed the Wall.
  On level 11 he assembled a tactical boots!
  He massacred the evil behind the Wall!
  On level 12 he assembled a fireproof armor!
  On level 12 he romped upon the Abyssal Plains.
  He slaughtered the beasts living there.
  On level 14 he ventured into the Spider's Lair.
  He cleared the Lair, kickin' serious spider ass!
  Level 15 was a hard nut to crack!
  On level 16 he found the Tower of Babel!
  On level 17 he assembled a plasmatic shrapnel!
  On level 19 he entered the Vaults.
  On level 19 he found the Trigun!
  On level 19 he assembled a fireproof armor!
  He cracked the Vaults and cleared them out!
  Then at last he found Dis!
  He nuked level 24!
  He defeated the Mastermind and found the TRUE EVIL!
  On level 25 he finally sacrificed himself to kill the Mastermind.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 There are stairs leading downward here.
 This is it. This is the lair of all evil! What will you meet here?
 You feel vulnerable again.
 You wear/wield : a fireproof duelist armor [2/2] (100%) (A)
 A voice bellows: "Don't think you can surprise me!" You are hit!
 You start running!
 The missile hits John Carmack. You dodge! The missile hits the baron of hell.
 The baron of hell hits you.
 You use a large med-pack. You feel fully healed.
 The missile hits John Carmack. You are hit! Your fireproof duelist armor is
 damaged!
 The missile hits John Carmack. You dodge! You dodge! The missile hits the
 baron of hell. You are hit! Your fireproof duelist armor is completely
 destroyed! You die!... Press <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 264 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 197 of those were killed.
 1 of those was killed by something unknown.
 17 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
 And 19 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 30 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 5 sacrificed itself for the good of mankind.
 16 killed the bitch and survived.
 9 showed that it can outsmart Hell itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------

My thoughts on Scavenger on a standard run?
Basically makes Armory/D-Lab and Vaults a requirement, and needing to do Vaults either requires getting a plasmatic shrapnel and phase devices or CC+ for the Arena Master's Staff. I guess...if you're putting points into EE anyway for Int1 to get MSc, CC+ isn't that bad if you use the RL from Arena and use it on Arena Master. Certainly felt a lot easier than shotgunning AM from across the map like I'm used to--just another reason why I don't do CC+ all that often these days.

I certainly did not need to save as much as I did but I just wanted to mess around. I got a handful of exotic/unique weapons on this run, including two Tristar Blasters, Minigun, Trigun, and I'm pretty certain I also got a Railgun on this run but I might have Unloaded it and it actually never entered my inventory.

More on Scavenger, though: It blocks Berserker, Dualgunner, and Triggerhappy. But not Brute, Son of a Gun, and Son of a Bitch. I want to emphasize the fact that both SoG and SoB are allowed. That's incredibly generous. MGK blocks SoB. MSs blocks SoB. (MBD doesn't but you need TH so of course it isn't blocked). I remember seeing in another post somewhere that SoG = Fin + SoB for pistols. And if you really wanted, Fin isn't blocked so you can put points into that too. So building up to MSc while packing some decent power isn't that difficult. And unless you're playing on AoMr, you're not limited to just pistols--you could use a shotgun for the first half of the game if you really wanted to. Having EE2 and a RL for Anomaly made the Bruiser Brothers trivial.

tl;dr
To play Scavenger on a standard run/non-long haul run is to take whatever the RNG gives you + special stages with an enhanced chance to spawn out-of-the-ordinary items, and then using your Unload abilities to push the RNG one step further. And building incredibly silly shit like a P3NF missile launcher.
Praise be to the Mother-in-law!

also I did not know this happens if you try to hit JC while he's out of your LOS

Code: [Select]

A voice bellows: "Don't think you can surprise me!"

[Aki]

From the wiki:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Anyway, it still seems too RNG dependant. Was the 15 saves to try scumming on a reload to get the mods you wanted? I can't tell from the context of what you posted ;-;

And making the vaults/CC+/Deimos Labs a requirement for harder difficulties is suicide if you're not equipped well enough when they spawn.

[White Rider]

Thank you for providing verified information from the wiki after I learned about new things. Sure is helpful.

Anyway, it still seems too RNG dependant. Was the 15 saves to try scumming on a reload to get the mods you wanted? I can't tell from the context of what you posted ;-;

The saves were to make sure I didn't die on Wall or CC+ or Armory.

Explain what you mean by "too RNG dependent". What is considered too much RNG dependency? What is not enough?

What if mod packs were removed from the game entirely?

And making the vaults/CC+/Deimos Labs a requirement for harder difficulties is suicide if you're not equipped well enough when they spawn.

That's not a good enough reason to skip them. Risk versus reward.
Also tough luck if you want to get Conqueror on UV/N!. You're not geared any differently in higher difficulties but you have more traits. Use them instead of relying on gear all the damn time.

[Aki]

No need to get your back up or anything. I was just trying to show that the information was out there, I wasn't trying to offend you.

[Eyro]

I find Roguelikes are good because the main focus is bad game design.

RNG, Fake Difficulty, and Permadeath are all bad mechanics that Roguelikes manage to make shine, so you should expect this kinda stuff, Aki. I suppose the main point of mod packs and RNG is to make every run have a different difficulty.

[Aki]

Oh yes, don't get me wrong. I enjoy all that kind of stuff even if it frustrates the hell out of me. However, i'm simply concerned with the balance of the trait itself.

If it's not broken, then don't fix it - but there's nothing wrong with discussing it to see what other people think.

[White Rider]

No need to get your back up or anything. I was just trying to show that the information was out there, I wasn't trying to offend you.

Sorry if that sounded insensitive.
Although shooting at JC meant the end of that run, it was hilarious when it happened and I learned something I didn't know about before. Surprises are fun. Sometimes.

[Aki]

It's okay, I just don't like offending people and causing fights, and try not to >_<

You do bring up a very valid point though about risk versus reward - as for UV Conq, I have a plan for that once I get past AoI.

And yeah, I didn't know that he shouted that either. Did he teleport next to you or anything like that?

[White Rider]

And yeah, I didn't know that he shouted that either. Did he teleport next to you or anything like that?

You know the Hell Knight/Baron SURPRISE at Containment Area? It was like that, instead of JC summoning a ring of HK/HBs around him.
Seems like JC summons the same turn you try to hit him like that. He didn't teleport next to me, he teleported like he normally does.

[IronBeer]

Trouble figuring out what to build with Scavenger?

"Basic" (no Nano/Onyx mods, no exotic bases):
*"Enhanced Hyperblaster" (+ P/T)
*"Mauler Shotgun" (+ P/T)
*"Enhanced Tac Launcher" (+ P/B)
*"Phase Knife" (Piercing Combat Knife + P/B)
*"Enhanced Gatling Gun" (+ P/T/B or maybe A)
*"Hardened Nanofiber Armor" (NF Red + P)
*"Ghetto Inquisitor Armor" (Tac Armor + P)
*"Dash Boots" (Tac Boots + A)
*"Hellwalker Boots" (Cerb Boots + A)

Comments: Really, a full set of "Basic" weapons and your choice of armors should cover pretty much all your bases. The "Mauler Shotgun" will fall off after about Floor 25, but your more powerful weapons (read: Hyperblaster/Tac Launcher) should come online well before then."Hardened Nanofiber" is pretty much a requirement for an Ao100 run, and you can get creative with the base item. The "Enhanced Gatling Gun" doesn't really need an A mod, since you'll have 2xEE as part of your Scavenger pre-reqs.

"Advanced" (advanced mods available, exotic bases available)
Generally, shit gets nuts here. Your imagination is pretty much the limit, but here are some ideas to get you started.
*"Nuclear Cannon" (Burst Nuclear Plasma Rifle + P/B/T) -Nuclear Plasrifles are surprisingly common on Ao100, unfortunately Nuclear Hyperblasters aren't a thing
*"Hellfire Rocket Launcher" (Nanomac. Napalm Launcher + P/T/F) -Pair with Inquisitor Set or Lava Armor for maximum lulz
*"Apocalypse Cannon" (Nuclear Biggest F.G. + P/B/F) -Can sub for standard BFG or VBFG assembly. But why not go for the best?
*"Disintegration Rifle" (Nanomac. Plasma Rifle + P/F/T) -Most Scavengers strive for something like this
*"The Mother-in-Law" (Nanomac. Rocket Launcher + P/T/F) -A timeless classic!
*"Reaper Shotgun" (Nanoshrap. Super Shotgun + P) -Hey, you can be part of the army of the dead too!
*"Ultimate Antigrav Boots" (Phaseshift Antigrav Boots + A) -Pretty much the ultimate boots
*"Hellward Skin" (Nanoskin Energy-Shielded Vest + P, possibly A) -Makes you all but immune to "energy" attacks; still decent against "ballistic" attacks too
*"Cybertitan Suit" (Cybernano Gothic/Cybernetic Armor + P) -I'd say the previous assembly is better, but if you like having just a stupid number or armor points, this is for you
*And tons more!

Addressing the trait at large, I think it's generally best for long-haul games, but it's plenty viable for normal games too. IMO, smartest thing to do is push for an extra point on Int as a matter of course, and defer the master trait by 1 level. Once you have Int2, you'll need to rely on a Combat/Tactical Shotgun around corners, and a Gatling Gun in the open (2x EE subs for per-shot damage). Like most other Technician masters, Scavenger isn't very strong until you actually have the master, but it really shines over time.

[Aki]

Yup. Yup, I lost it when I saw the mother in law. I remember seeing that mortem the other day and boy, that was hilarious. If you can reliably make the mother in law then you're good to go. Time to try an Ao100 MSc run.

[Sambojin]

I'd have to agree that going straight for Int(2) would be the best option. EE(2) makes chainguns fairly useable as a backup weapon early on. You've also got that handy little tech mod that you start with. A T1-shotgun (or chaingun) is actually a pretty useable weapon. As soon as your mastertrait comes online, dis-assemble it to get another random mod.

It's not as though it's a horrible mastertrait. Even unmodded plasma rifles become useful killers with their high EE enhanced accuracy, but your's will definately be modded. SoB(2) still works wonders, so I'm not sure why you think that you can't rapid-fire with the trait. Shotguns, RLs, MLs, plasma rifles and even BFGs all get a lot better with high accuracy and the wonders of Int(2). Admittedly, they'd be that good without the mastertrait, but the Scavenger ability is just a nice little bonus on top of everything. You can un-mod your start-off weapons and you'll usually get around 2-3 extra mods throughout the game by destroying exotics/uniques. It's not uber-powerful, but it's not bad either. It does give you a chance at getting those normally completely unrealistic assemblies and mod combos in a normal game, which is pretty good in my opinion. I'll have to put up some mortems with really dumb/good mod-combos at some point.

Could it use a boost? Probably. Is it bad? Not really.

[Sambojin]

Another small point on the mastertrait:

That starting tech mod and the two from CC+ are golden. EE enhanced chaingun fire will get you through the arena (or tech modded shotty cornershots), and accurate rockets destroy the AM in CC+. It doesn't really matter what mods you get from it, as soon as you get Scavenger, you can definately get what you need. It may not be from the rare mods selection, but you can always end up with the basic or advanced assembly of your choice (that doesn't use a rare mod) as soon as you get Scavenger.

Mod a weapon, destroy a weapon, get a new random mod-pack. If it's not the one you want, repeat the process.

To me that's pretty damn powerful.
 
(was this changed in 0.9.9.7 to only have a percentage chance of a mod-pack return? I'll have to do a couple of runs on HNTR to check).