DRL > Post Mortem

[H|94%|21|YASD] I learned something.

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LuckyDee:

--- Quote from: Sylph on November 30, 2013, 07:13 ---Juggler switch time a bug?!? Are you kidding! That's what makes it an actual skill worth taking! The quick switch alone is not nearly enough to justify a trait!

--- End quote ---

I won't contradict you, but consider this:

[hijackingthisthread]
1) It only works for quick-keyed weapons, which is just a very small part of the entire scope, at least in the basic configuration
2) If you start changing the configuration, there's only so many keys you can bind - unless you could also use stuff like the ♪-key and ♀-key. It will only affect part of the full arsenal, which you as a player - well, not even a player, more like a programmer - have to decide upon before (each game).
3) In the current form, it should just work on the weapons you select from your inventory. It doesn't. If you have a shotgun in your inventory, there's actually different ways of equipping it which take different amounts of time; and last but not least
4) It's rediculous. Swapping from wielded to prepared weapon in 0.0s I understand. Swapping from wielded to prepared to RL to BFG to a knife in each hand in the same amount of time is just nuts.
[/hijackingthisthread]

So yeah, sounds like a really big bug to me.

As you were.

Sylph:
Your first 3 points basically come down to the keybinding issue. I agree, it should just work with all weapons, and I don't like the fact that I have every weapon in the game bound to a shift+key combination to properly use juggler.

Your fourth point addresses realism. I don't find it any less realistic than an hour of combat training improving a marine to the point that they are able to fire 10 bullets from a pistol in the time that, an hour ago, they used to take one... With more accuracy, more damage, and using both hands (for 20 bullets total) no less. Ergo, outside of 'angel of humanity', the traits system isn't supposed to be realistic. It's just supposed to be balanced. :)

LuckyDee:
You're right, of course; I'd already come up with the arguments you've listed shortly after my previous post. #4 isn't nowhere near reason enough to ditch it, but I think #123 should be addressed in the next version. Maybe my new found power will even allow me to have a stab at realizing it :)

smgamer240:

--- Quote from: ZicherCZ on November 30, 2013, 00:04 ---Nice to see you making progress, and to see that you actually think about the game - with this approach, we will see you rising in ranks pretty quickly :).
One thing, though ...

"I could have used that Homing Phase Device I had to escape but who knows if it would have worked or put me in another dangerous situation"

Wrong thinking here. A HPD would work and would put you right on the stairs. The worst that could happen in your situation after using the HPD is that you would die anyway, and getting a chance of avoiding YASD instead of a certain YASD sounds like a good trade to me.
Use those consumables while you're alive - in the mortem file, they are worthless.

--- End quote ---

Yeah, I get what you mean. I guess the main thing I was worried about is that while the HPD would teleport me to the stairs, that there will be more monsters in that area that would probably get an attack in and finish me off before I can go down to the next level. Still, you've got a point. I guess I'll have to watch out in the future.


--- Quote from: LuckyDee on November 30, 2013, 00:50 ---Re: traits: I've never been a fan of MAD myself, exactly for the reasons you list, and I recently found out that master traits indeed aren't the be-all and end-all, although I must say I've seen MAD work miracles before - more so than MGK, at least.

Looking at your personal choice of traits, there's a couple of things that stand out: if you want to play for speed, which you clearly do, I'd say you'd fair better as a Scout, or even Tech (item use time + T mod, thanks Zicher), than as Marine. BAD was, contrary to what the abbreviation suggests, probably a good choice, but why not go for even more speed: taking JUG allows you to instantly swap between quick-keyed weapons - a MAJOR BUG if you ask me, but hey, it works - so if you keep a couple of loaded shotguns ready, you can fire them all without needing to reload.* (Also, you had no weapon in your prepared slot. I believe it takes less time to swap to a prepared weapon than picking one from your inventory) Lastly, the level of EE you took: for shotguns, this is pointless of course, although it would definitely help with the backup weapons you were carrying. Still, what made you choose it?

* Yes, you had a tactical shotgun, but without the armor piercing ability MAD confers, this gets inferior very quickly, even on HNTR. Have you considered something like an elephant gun?

This all may make me sound like a regular Mr. Know-It-All (and whatever rhymes with eloquent), but I nonetheless agree with Zicher: you're using your head, and it's getting you places, so you're doing great. I'm just curious about the stuff above, wondering whether you'd also taken this into account. Go get 'em, tiger!

--- End quote ---

I think your right. A Scout or Technician probably would have been a better choice of class for me, as that's an extra +15% to movement speed on the former, and a free T-Mod and quick use on consumables for the latter. I'll probably go with either of the two for my next run.

As for MAD, on all my victorious runs (two of which that was on HNTR) I did use it. Although it's kind of weird, sometimes even with the armor piercing effect of the trait, it still took several shots to down moderately powerful monsters, like Barons and Mancubi. That's probably due to the limited range of the Shotgun, but it's just my take on it. MAD didn't seem effective at all on HMP, as I had several other failed runs on that difficulty level and for a while, MAD I always used.

I guess I took EE because I thought it might improve my accuracy a bit, but does it not really work well on Shotgun builds? I do know about the Elephant Gun. I usually go with that if I was unlucky and couldn't find a P and T Mod to put on a Combat Shotgun. I'll also think about that for my next run.

Oh, and you don't sound like a Mr. Know-It-All. I appreciate all the tips.


--- Quote from: Sylph on November 30, 2013, 07:13 ---Re: This mortem. I think you might be selling MAD short a little. It gets more and more significant as the game progresses! I personally don't like shotgun builds much (shotguns are m radar and my knockback tool, but never my main weapon), but if you go with them, I'd say going without MAD is brave, and I respect your experimentation with it - experimenting makes you get better fast in this game! Are you using running mode much? With hellrunner, it's practically invulnerability, and you get 3-4 every level. I'm surprised you died to an arachnotron with that build, I assume you were already tired?

--- End quote ---

Maybe I am discrediting MAD, but as I said to LuckyDee, it didn't seem to be that effective to me, at least on HMP.  Thanks for the respect on my experimentations. Like I said in the OP, it did get me farther than I usually do on that difficulty level. I think I was in 'cautious' state upon meeting the Arachnotron but I guess I didn't think of going into 'running' mode. Thanks for that tip. I'll remember it for next time. I guess when you think you're in trouble, you have to consider all of your options. This is true in DoomRL and probably in every other rogue-like game out there.

ZicherCZ:

--- Quote from: smgamer240 on November 30, 2013, 14:59 ---As for MAD, on all my victorious runs (two of which that was on HNTR) I did use it. Although it's kind of weird, sometimes even with the armor piercing effect of the trait, it still took several shots to down moderately powerful monsters, like Barons and Mancubi. That's probably due to the limited range of the Shotgun, but it's just my take on it. MAD didn't seem effective at all on HMP, as I had several other failed runs on that difficulty level and for a while, MAD I always used.

I guess I took EE because I thought it might improve my accuracy a bit, but does it not really work well on Shotgun builds? I do know about the Elephant Gun. I usually go with that if I was unlucky and couldn't find a P and T Mod to put on a Combat Shotgun. I'll also think about that for my next run.

--- End quote ---

Well, of course, it still takes several shots to down Barons or Mancubi - but when you factor in the damage dropoff and the double armor application for shrapnel damage, the result, in my experience, averages around three or four shots less needed to down them with MAD then without it. This difference tends to add up over time considerably, both in time needed to kill and in ammo consumption. Of course, if you don't feel like taking MAD, then by all means don't - but IMHO, you may try a Scout and go for Shottyhead instead, it just might suit you better.

EE is completely useless on pure shotgun builds, as shotguns are not affected by accuracy at all - check the Wiki for details, if you wish. However, it does help the missile launcher and the plasma rifle you had in your inventory, so if you were using those with at least some regularity, it could still be a valid choice. Never take it on AoSh though :).

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