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[Styro]

I have been trying to play a Shottyman challenge. I drop the pistol as soon as I find the first shotgun and only use shotguns after that. It is a pretty brutal game - I end up getting the crap beat out of me as I try to get close to the enemy.

In any case, I have found that it is curently not easily doable because of the ammo issue. No matter how much shotgun ammo I hoard, I run out. Perhaps that would be part of the challenge - forcing you to get as close as possible to an enemy before you begin firing so that you conserve ammo. But I don't think you would ever have enough to finish off the CD.

So, the bottom line is, if an official Shottyman challenge is implemented in the future, something may need to be done about the shotgun ammo shortage.

Mostly, this was on Med difficulty, because I never got too far on UV since Barons of Hell start showing up so early.

An official challenge could be made to include rocket launchers (making it a demolitionists challenge or something), but I think that would not help the ammo problems any because you would be blowing up even more ammo.

Any other thoughts or suggestions? Has anyone else tried this?

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Hmm, the official challenge could give you a normal shotty at the beginning, and increase the shell spawn rate.

[Styro]

That would probably be good enough. It is amazing how quickly you burn through shells with a double shotgun. :)

It is a pretty fun challenge game. It requires very different tactics from how I usually play.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

So maybe it'll make into the next beta xD

Anyone else want it?

[Fingerzam]

The problem I have had with shotgun ammo is caused by the fact that there won't be much ammo after lvl ~15 and hellish caves eat up many shells while I get only a few back.

While this might be an issue with chainguns, you at least get 24 ammo stacks of bullets randomly and 150 from former captains and also additional ammo from former humans at hellish cities while you only get 8 shells as random stacks and 31 from sergeants. And there aren't that many sergeants. I usually spend my last shells at level 23 or 24, and after that I use my rockets for enemies and BFG for Cybie.

1 ammunition vault randomly on the way would help (from rooms thread), though the game is finishable as is if you remember to hoard enough shells at the beginning. Placing some stacks of shotgun shells at either Spiders' Lair or City of Skulls would probably do.

[Styro]

Upping the shell spawn rate would probably be enough, although I wouldn't complain about having extra shells stashed here and there.

There is already one special level loaded with 10mm ammo (armory I think) and one filled with shells (halls I believe). But that alone is not enough. Even after filling up your inventory with shells you run out after 2 or 3 levels so you pretty much need a constant supply. In my last game I had 4 "twisty caves" levels filled with Arachs in a row and I only found a total of 1 stack of 8 shells. :( I had to use my chainsaw as a backup to get me through the last level and a half, and then the next two levels after that until I found some more ammo. That's hard to do when you haven't been taking any melee perks like Brute.

The higher spawn rate needs to be high enough to let you refill your supply every few levels. It may take some play testing to get it so that you will be able to have enough to take down the CD at the end without resorting to your fists, but not so much that ammo is never a concern (a little worry is good).

[RepoRipper]

hey cool i had idea for a Demolition Challenge with the Mega Launcher. its a standard rocket launcher, but infinite ammo! still reloads, but that solves the blew up all ammo problem, and makes it playable on early levels, where there are no rockets! also, the Angel of Carnage Challenge. (wont unlock anything) you can use only chainguns. but u start with an advanced chaingun, and remember dualgunner trait? new trait called Ripper! 1 level, requires dualgunners, reloader, and yhe firing speed trait to get, it lets u, with two chainguns in inventory, to fire alternately, ie at once. meaning 10 shots per turn for 10 turns. 100 shots before reload!!! note it fires the shots alternately, so if they do different damage (advanced) then damage is different, note it fires all 10 within just as much time as normal, so technically 200% firing speed, and 150% reload speed!!! it would make the chaingun acceptable as a late-game weapon. but each trait it requires must be at 2, and Dualgunner requires 2 Son of a gun! so minumum lvl 9 to have this trait!!!!!!!!! that makes it equal. seeing as how u arent likely to get that many levels without intuition, which takes 5 levels to max out! ie total lvl 14!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Supernaut]

hey cool i had idea for a Demolition Challenge with the Mega Launcher. its a standard rocket launcher, but infinite ammo! still reloads, but that solves the blew up all ammo problem, and makes it playable on early levels, where there are no rockets!

And it does 10d10 damage and has huge knockback, doesnt destroy items and doesnt damage you. It also destroy indestructable walls and kills JC in 2 shots. We could also have a trait which reloads Rocketlauncher whenever you move, also increasing your dodge chance by 50 %.

 

also, the Angel of Carnage Challenge. (wont unlock anything) you can use only chainguns. but u start with an advanced chaingun, and remember dualgunner trait? new trait called Ripper! 1 level, requires dualgunners, reloader, and yhe firing speed trait to get, it lets u, with two chainguns in inventory, to fire alternately, ie at once. meaning 10 shots per turn for 10 turns. 100 shots before reload!!! note it fires the shots alternately, so if they do different damage (advanced) then damage is different, note it fires all 10 within just as much time as normal, so technically 200% firing speed, and 150% reload speed!!! it would make the chaingun acceptable as a late-game weapon. but each trait it requires must be at 2, and Dualgunner requires 2 Son of a gun! so minumum lvl 9 to have this trait!!!!!!!!! that makes it equal. seeing as how u arent likely to get that many levels without intuition, which takes 5 levels to max out! ie total lvl 14!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The idea of the challenge sounds fun. The idea of the trait sounds crap.

[Silencexy]

hey cool i had idea for a Demolition Challenge with the Mega Launcher. its a standard rocket launcher, but infinite ammo! still reloads, but that solves the blew up all ammo problem, and makes it playable on early levels, where there are no rockets! also, the Angel of Carnage Challenge. (wont unlock anything) you can use only chainguns. but u start with an advanced chaingun, and remember dualgunner trait? new trait called Ripper! 1 level, requires dualgunners, reloader, and yhe firing speed trait to get, it lets u, with two chainguns in inventory, to fire alternately, ie at once. meaning 10 shots per turn for 10 turns. 100 shots before reload!!! note it fires the shots alternately, so if they do different damage (advanced) then damage is different, note it fires all 10 within just as much time as normal, so technically 200% firing speed, and 150% reload speed!!! it would make the chaingun acceptable as a late-game weapon. but each trait it requires must be at 2, and Dualgunner requires 2 Son of a gun! so minumum lvl 9 to have this trait!!!!!!!!! that makes it equal. seeing as how u arent likely to get that many levels without intuition, which takes 5 levels to max out! ie total lvl 14!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you know, the problem with these challenges is that there is no challenge - I have a faint suspicion that supernaut got the same idea  :-P

[TFoN]

An RL challenge can actually be very nice, once AI's improved to the point where they'll certainly come after you once they're hit out of LOS. But make ammo finite - you just start with alot. Not too much, though. Part of the challenge will be the strategic herding and placement of your enemies, to conserve ammo through multikills.

[BDR]

That really does sound neat, but I think that might in the end be the hardest of all possible weapon challenges: Unless you simply blast your way to the stairs down all the way to Cybie (which would, I imagine, use a lot of rockets, possibly negating the benefit of not needing to worry about all the baddies punching giant holes in you on the way), you'll have to deal with a lot of enemies in sight and firing at you while you're trying to get as many next to each other as possible all the time, which means you're either risking the loss of a buttload of health or you're risking the destruction of crucial items every time you engage an enemy.  Add to this things that can withstand more than one rocket and you have a recipe for lots of pain.

Not that I wouldn't try it out; I'd just say that it'd need to be rated either Hard or Very Hard, and I wouldn't expect to beat it. ;)

[TFoN]

Hey, dude, Blade did N!, I did AoMs on UV. "Very Hard" is a good thing to have :)

[BDR]

I know this, I'm just saying normal people will have issues!  (No, I'm not going to define normal)

Sheesh...

[RepoRipper]

sorry i havent replied sooner ive been busy on other threads.
supernaut, its not crap. it just deserves to be a Master Trait with multiple requirements. (Kornel talked about his idea for Master Traits in one of the feature request traits threads, look there to understand)
as for the demolition challenge, how about calling the weapon the Sonic Missle Launcher? the only dif between it and a normal RL is that it doesnt destroy items. it does blow up barrels though, and those can destroy items! it uses normal Rockets to fire, but u dont have to use it alone. u cannot unequip it, but u can swap it, but only for a RL. and yes, it DOES damage you, but (being the now-dead squads Demolition specialist) u carry industrial earplugs at all times. (you have become skilled at hearing sharp sounds [not big booms, like an explosion] through said earplugs) i mean, it's a Sonic Missle, for cryin out loud!

[Supernaut]

sorry i havent replied sooner ive been busy on other threads.
supernaut, its not crap. it just deserves to be a Master Trait with multiple requirements. (Kornel talked about his idea for Master Traits in one of the feature request traits threads, look there to understand)

It's not this. I just think that you shouldn't be able to dual wield more than 2 guns, or 2 knives, or a gun and a knife.  Dual wielding those weapons:
Chainsaw
Fists
Longinus Spears
Shotguns
Chainguns
Rocket Launchers
Plasma Rifles
BFGXXXX and Advanced BFGXXXX

seems like a bad idea for me.

[RepoRipper]

ok heres the logic: bfgs, RLs, and plasma rifles are too heavy to be held in only hand, chainsaw requires both hands to keep from slicing off your own legs, *FISTS*????? ur ALREADY punching with both hands!, as for shotguns, the recoil will blow it right outa your hands if you havent got a firm grip! the LS is a unique item: you can only aqquire it ONCE. if u have two, ur messing with the programming code. Chainguns are classically double held (look at Wolfenstein illustrations, he stands in a doorway with twin chainguns!), and most of a chainguns real weight is from all the bullets loaded into it! they are also some of the only weapons in the world with little or no recoil, because the revolving barrel converts it into centrifical force, throwing it directly away from the center of the barrel. as for the downsides, thats 10 turns to unload both guns, ie an entire stack of bullets. yeah. unless ur playing my Arena of Carnage, why are u carrying more than 3 stacks of ammo. then u gotta remember that late in the game, 10mm ammo is almost as scarce as shotgun shells!

[Supernaut]

Dunno about plasma rifles, though - US army didnt give any info about recoil and how the weapon fires. Too bad.

Doom has a kind of pseudo realism, so babbling into details like how much recoil which weapon had seems pointless.

Chainguns would anyway weight tons, probably because you carry so much ammo ´on your torso.

[TFoN]

Vulcans/miniguns/chainguns don't have recoil...? Are you sure about this? Anyway, they still require two hands to manage - one for fire and one for support, since it doesn't use a conventional trigger (which would mean having the entire thing supported by one hand, likely on a bad angle), but more of a lever. Kind of like a chainsaw, come to think of it.

But who cares? It's a nonsensical game. Do you feel like discussing why you can take shitloads of damage even before healing, often taking out a couple of AVs, High Bastards of Hell, without needing a medkit? Or how come a pistol takes up as much space as 10 rockets or a BFG...? Why Arachs, walking brains, don't plan better attacks and keep walking in lava? Or why you never pee your pants?!

[BDR]

unless ur playing my Arena of Carnage, why are u carrying more than 3 stacks of ammo. then u gotta remember that late in the game, 10mm ammo is almost as scarce as shotgun shells!

What the fark?  That second reason is EXACTLY why you carry more than 3 stacks of 10mm ammo around if you're primarily using a pistol/chaingun (especially in Angel of Marksmanship)!  If you can kill the hellspawn fast enough you don't need a lot of extra medkits, and if you're playing AoMr, when you run out of 10mm ammo you are pretty well and truly screwed unless you can find more before the remaining enemies come for you.

[RepoRipper]

ok BDR, it is IMPLIED that AoM is an exeption, and as for how much u carry, i happen to have tossed my chaingun at lvl 18/19/20, because i was picking up so much plasma, and i still had my ARL. point is, especially if the level range is increased, you will be finding yourself severely needing those 3 or 4 10mm ammo slots DESPERATELY by midgame

[TFoN]

I usually make it out of the game with a few hundred 10mm ammo left, but sooner or later I'll have a low point, usually somewhere between mid- and late-game, where I'll have to rely on my RL and pick up a SG so I can put shells to use. That's also why I'll sometimes carry a DblSG around, even if I'd already dropped all my shells.

[RepoRipper]

interesting...

OH hey. i just remembered! i came up with (yet ANOTHER of my many many ideas and imaginings) a new weapon! i actually came up with it for real life use, but.... its a shotgun! actually i named it the Thundercracker! anyway, its basically a triple-barrel, belt-fed, pump-action shotgun firing HE Shotgun shells!
OUCH!!! thats the one i came up with, but for this Shotgun challenge, this could be the special weapon, works like a combat shotgun, with load on move, holds 30 shells at once, fired 3 at a time, but firing takes as long as a shotgun to fire, (no double shotgun effect, as in taking 2 or 3 times as long to fire as normal) but warning, the shottyman trait only loads 3 shells at a time!

[TFoN]

I think a core assumption in the word "challenge" is that it will be *hard*. There is no doubt in my mind that this will be *way* to powerful, cutting most things down in one shot, on a regular basis. A Shottyman challenge should be a way to make at least one SG-only game compulsory, not to make at least one type of SG game alien to the rest of DoomRL and grossly unbalanced.


As for this weapon in real life, it doesn't seem useful, IMUneducatedO. HE rounds seem to me too high a risk to make this worth while, as there are weapons that will cause enough damage, and almost certainly won't blow-up in your hands. Without those, I doubt it'll breach anything a shotgun can't, and then, what's the point? Just take an elephant hunting rifle, instead. You want a repeater? Pancor Jackhammer is an example of one, and they aren't used. Other CmbtSGs are used, and therefore don't need to be reinvented :)

[RepoRipper]

ok in the game, its not as powerful at a distance, though still more powerful than a normal shotgun, or even a Double shotgun (minumum damage, of course!). at point-blank range, though, its basically a BFG on steroids! but remember, once the triple 10-shell belts are fired, reloading the belts takes 3x as long as a double shotgun, or 6x as long as a normal shotgun. and there are no "versions" of this to reload faster! the worst nightmare of a player using this is 3 or 4 Pain Ele's spawning lost souls every other turn! no way to run, and any chance of dispersal is nullified by the fact that most of it will hit whoevers closest, and that which doesnt isnt gonna hurt those sheer numbers! a normal player, facing that, pulls out his trusty BFG, and they ALL die. our shotgun guy is dead. period. even 1 PE can screw him over. and so can AVs if they have anyone between you and them. the cyberdemon isnt a pushover, either, cuz his armor takes the brunt of the HE part off, and even if you can get right in front of him... well... he may be huge, but hes not a fatso. at least a quarter of the pieces will end up missing, or going between his legs!

as for real life, its designed to be used by explosives specialists (they already have explosive stuff on them, and HE shotgun shells arent very explosive compared to anything else except gunpowder!) as a field weapon. why? at point blank, the Thundercracker can probably deliver almost as much force as an AT rocket! in other words, it will quite likely blow a hole in tank armor! and its easyier and faster to use than plastic explosives or C4, and shotgun shells dont get unstable and blow up because some clumsy oaf drops them!

[TFoN]

First of all, what I wrote about HEIAP in shotguns goes here too - there's no longer a spread, as far as I understood it, making it a very different kind of weapon. In this case, it's mostly a 1-target hand-cannon. Nice, but not a shotgun.

Second, the idea of a Shottyman challenge is still to enforce mandatory use of a *standard* SG path. At most, circumstances are balanced by giving you a good SG - but it will still be the *standard* good SG. Otherwise, it's not a Shottyman challenge, it's a New, Otherwise Unattainable Weapon challenge.
The disadvantages you propose only serve to unbalance it further (though I'm not sure why you can't simply only reload one barrel), as you'll "sometimes kill everything, sometimes just die".

[RepoRipper]

first point, u misunderstood, i explained in the other thread why.

second, ok i get it, in that case it should be a special prize in a tough secret level. on that note, i came up with a secret level, Shotgun Alley, where hordes of sergeants move around, with all the walls being doors, both locked and unlocked!

[RepoRipper]

OH WOW! i decided to be a shotgunner for my AoLT bout, just got Shottyman! AWESOME DOUBLE SHOTGUN!!! now if only i could find an advanced one! i also have Int (3) and am going to go for hellwreaker rampage! "hello my Pain Elemental freinds, allow me to introduce you to my newest..." (note, AWESOME EXP TO GAIN THIS WAY!) any specific traits you would recommend? for a shotgunner? i also carry a plasma rifle for arachs and archviles.

[TFoN]

Putting such a weapon in a special level's even worse: you have all of its advantages, and can simply swap to another weapon when the disadvantages kick in.

Also, compare it with the LS. The moment such a weapon's found, a balance nightmare commences. The "advantage" of the LS's that it requires a melee game to access, which most games don't follow. You'd have to come up with some really good limitation for accessing (and using) this weapon for it to not break down the balance of the entire game.


AFAIR PA-spawned Lost Souls don't give XP.

[arch_8ngel]

I'm not sure where somebody got the idea of a zero-recoil chaingun...

The autocannon on an A-10 produces a 12,000 lb recoil (with a 30mm round)
Scale that down to the GE minigun (0.223 calibur) or a Bushmaster (0.30 calibur) and you're at least talking about the equivalent of an M-16.

The barrels don't spin because of force transfer -- they spin because they're driven by an electric motor.
If the battery dies, so goes the gun's ability to fire continuously.

Needless to say, I doubt anyone ever fired a minigun one handed (the miniguns used in T2 and Predator are actually real and fire real bullets...it's the only way to make the muzzle blast look right on film).  The guys in Wolfenstien were giant supermutants that were engineered with the guns built into their bodies.  BJ Blaskowitz had to 2-hand the sucker.

Anyway, I just thought the recoil comment was absurd and needed some rebuttle...

[RepoRipper]

oh..... ty for correcting that misguided idea.
but seriously, it makes sense to use spinning force-transfer.

on the note of Recoil, i have a weapon idea (Real Life) for a rfle with a stopper on the end, fires a cartridge. the cartridge slams into the stopper, and the contents of the cartridge blast through the thinner lid. the contents are a liquid chemical that ignites upon contact with oxygen. ie think "Greek Fire" only if u put it out, it immediately ignites again. as soon as it touches oxygen. ie, a flaming liquid bullet! that Splashes!

[Zeb]

I think that a Shottyman challenge would be awesome, and all it would require is making it so that a non-shotgun couldn't be equipped. (And that the shell spawns on later levels be increased of course.) I'd definitely play it.

[ssfsx17]

A Shottyman Challenge wouldn't be much of a challenge. Archies and the Cybie might be a little tough to take down, but with the Shottyman and Hellrunner traits, you can basically run up to most of the other monsters and blast them in the face without getting hit much. I guess it could be rated "Easy."

[TFoN]

As quite a poor shotgun-fighter, I disagree :P
I think it'll turn out much like AoMr - some will find it a walk in the park and others, like myself, won't at all.

[Zeb]

I love shotguns, so I guess I'm biased in that regard. :-P Although I've noticed that I always get Double Shotguns level 12 or later if at all, and I invariably get them level 7 or earlier on AoM and AoB (Including level 3 once.)