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Author Topic: Doom, id, and copyright issues  (Read 19107 times)

MadCoder

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Doom, id, and copyright issues
« on: February 06, 2007, 22:14 »

Hi everyone! (yes a newbie)

I love the DoomRL game, even though I really suck at it.  It's still fun to get slaughtered though.

I am curious about something, and can't get it off my mind.  The Doom game is copyrighted by id software.  Granted, this is a freeware game, but doesn't this game infringe on id's copyright?

There's also the donation issue.  I would think that id would be upset to know Kornel would get money (however little it may be) off of thier product.

Any chances you could comment on this Kornel?

BTW, great game!
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Anticheese

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2007, 01:27 »

Looking on alot of flash gaming sites there are many, many fan made games based around popular Blizzard games such as Starcraft and Warcraft. They extensively use sprites and sound effects taken directly from the games but because they are made by fans for fans they are not a threat to the owners of the copyright.

"Mostly harmless."

As for donations? Donations are just there for people who like the game. DoomRL is freeware and will always be freeware. While donations directly go into Kornels pocket, remember that hosting a website costs money and I can almost guarantee it that donations are spent on server maintennence and the like.

I know that I'm not Kornel..But I am common sense :)

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MadCoder

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2007, 01:45 »

DoomRL is getting very popular now, and that promotes id's stuff.  However, if he were to make a game for sale in the near future, and want to sell it, that could be a problem.  A game of his own design couldn't have a link to any of his pages, because then it would be developing revenue from the content of DoomRL.  That's my guess, anyway.
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Malek Deneith

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2007, 01:47 »

Look at the number of ports of Domm and Doom 2 - there are tons of the stuff , and yet ID doesn't give a damn.
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BDR

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2007, 01:50 »

DoomRL and Doom seem to me only to share three things: names of monsters and items, the title Doom, and play focus (fast paced action game with the lone marine against a ton of hellspawn).  They are very different types of games (one is a rogue-like [an action-based rogue-like, but still a rogue-like!], and the other is an FPS), they feature rather different styles of play (Doom: fast reactions are the key to survival; DoomRL: knowing what traits to take and what to do when up against different sets of enemies [reaction time in real life is totally out of the picture]), one is always random in the main area while the other always features the same level layout... I could (or someone else could) go on for a while.  Basically, Wolfenstein 3D has more in common with Doom than DoomRL, and there aren't copyright issues there, so why worry about DoomRL?
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Gamera

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2007, 05:38 »

DoomRL uses copyright protected sounds and trademark protected logos and names. The ascii art in descriptions probably counts as derivative works too. If ID wished they could enforce their rights and send Kornel a cease & desist. They could try suing for damages but I doubt a judge would find that any losses were incurred by the violations.
Wolfenstein 3D doesn't have copyright issues with Doom because it was made by the same people and it predates Doom and it doesn't share any intellectual property anyway -_-
There's a big difference between copyright, trademark and patent laws but everyone on the internet seems to think they're the same thing.
Basically DoomRL is okay to distribute because ID probably know about it and they don't give a shit.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2007, 06:33 »

I'll just point something out -- I don't want to challenge ID in any way -- probably if I would recieve a C&D letter, after some tries to save the project (by removing the soundfiles and whatever else they'd like me to do) I'd give up completely. I wouldn't feel so bad about it because for DoomRL it would be it's ultimate victory in terms of popularity :). Also I DO HOPE that ID software saw my game, for this is my way of paying tribute to that great work.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2007, 08:00 »

Kornel, why don't you just notify ID yourself? Both as a token of good will, and so that in the event that they will want to shut you down, there'll be less "damage" done to them, and so less to sue for (if they've really lost their minds).

MadCoder

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2007, 13:26 »

Quote
There's a big difference between copyright, trademark and patent laws but everyone on the internet seems to think they're the same thing.

Yes, I fall into that category.

I would say it's safe to assume id knows about DoomRL, how could they not?  Any company that doesn't perform regular searches for copyright..er..trademark infringements on the internet almost deserves to lose that revenue.

Judging from Carmacks roots, I think he wouldn't want to create a fuss anyway.  I think other companies might feel differently though.  An AliensRL might provoke some crap from the trademark holders...
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2007, 13:29 »

Judging from Carmacks roots, I think he wouldn't want to create a fuss anyway.  I think other companies might feel differently though.  An AliensRL might provoke some crap from the trademark holders...[/color]
LoL! :D

I on the other hand don't think so.
1) The word "Aliens" is hardly a trademark
2) "Alien Breed" series that takes tons of Aliens (including but not limited to the visual look of the aliens) stuff never got sued.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

MadCoder

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2007, 13:37 »

Wow Kornel, I hadn't considered that!  I didn't think about Alien Breed not being part of the Aliens Franchise.  So maybe we can look forward to that DoomRL after all...


My suggested Aliens flamethower upgrade:  The Fireball Launcher!  It deploys Medium ranged fireballs made of FleroGel (tm) that splatters everthing in it's bursting radius.  Similar in effect to Rocket Launchers, but the burning continues turn after turn.  Eventually, the FleroGel burns out, but it's effects cannot be stopped by entering water.  (Perhaps by a special anti-FleroGel spray?)

Sorry, got off-topic!

If you don't want to code AliensRL, maybe I could...hmm...find the time to code it myself?
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BDR

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2007, 12:37 »

DoomRL uses copyright protected sounds and trademark protected logos and names. The ascii art in descriptions probably counts as derivative works too. If ID wished they could enforce their rights and send Kornel a cease & desist. They could try suing for damages but I doubt a judge would find that any losses were incurred by the violations.

There is a thing within copyright law called fair use, however, and while DoomRL wouldn't really fall under any of the reasons for being considered fair usage I would think it also is not an overall offender in terms of the four areas set out in the link above (Purpose and character: neither educational nor profit; nature of the copyrighted work: both games, but very different types of games; amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work: sound and music individual copyrights would be violated in full, but that's the full extent of uncontroversial violations (I doubt the images both in descriptions and in-game would be considered infringing, for example); and the effect of the use on the potential market for and/or value of the work (I find the chance that it would be large enough to be seriously infringing highly unlikely).

As for the trademark issue, I found this and it seems that the big thing for infringing there is not confusing people on who owns the trademark.  In the slightly expanded description of what constitutes as a 'nominative use', they mention three things that a person using the trademark in their (writing, but this can be expanded to DoomRL) work has to do to prove they're not breaking the law: 1. The product can't be easily identifiable without the trademark; 2. The user only puts enough of the trademark in the work to identify the product as reasonably necessary; and 3. The user doesn't do anything that would suggest (while using the trademark) endorsement or sponsorship by the trademark owner.  #1 is pretty reasonably done IMO, and #3 seems pretty well satisfied (there's no claim made anywhere in the game that id had anything to do with this aside from inspiring it that I've seen).  That leaves #2, which toes the line depending on what parts of the game are actually trademarked (if it's just the name that's trademarked, then I would think Kornel's all right; and I think the rest would fall under copyright law, but I can't be sure).

In the end, I've gotta agree with one thing, though (found on the copyright page, which it seems like Kornel's more potentially infringing on anyway): It may be best just to ask id about it and get their blessing (AFAIK, they haven't quite gone down the complete-craphole yet like some [*cough* EA, Sony] companies have, so they should be fine with it).

Wolfenstein 3D doesn't have copyright issues with Doom because it was made by the same people and it predates Doom and it doesn't share any intellectual property anyway -_-

You're right, bad example.  Really, I was reaching for an easy illustration, but I could just as easily have said Duke Nukem.  As for sharing intellectual property, see above.
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MadCoder

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2007, 14:25 »

Quote from: BDR
It may be best just to ask id about it and get their blessing (AFAIK, they haven't quite gone down the complete-craphole yet like some [*cough* EA, Sony] companies have, so they should be fine with it).

I disagree and agree.

I disagree that Kornel should ask for their blessing.  I would hate for id to say, "huh, look at that, their infringing on our trademark," then decide to take legal action.  The game might (partly) go down in flames due to my first post on the board!  Besides, I think they have seen the game already, how could they not?  It's been in gamer mags and online articles all over.  They probably haven't said anything for legal reasons.  If John Carmack sent a letter that said, "You did a great job with DoomRL," he would effectively be giving approval of the production, which would practically give Kornel permisssion to do what he wants.  Id has probably seen it, maybe played it, and possibly want to say it's great, but cannot for legal reasons.

I would agree, however, that the companies you mention (EA, Sony) do suck!  It seems all their games are just rehashed old school titles, with fancy graphics, sounds and music added.  Thats why a game like DoomRL can be so popular.  It throws game components together in a way that defies traditional corporate gamemaking, and gives us all something so different that it screams "play me!"  This definition of corporate policy is further proven through id's recent actions with DoomRPG for the cell phones.  Even though I haven't played it (only because my cell phone doesn't support it), Carmack is still thinking of innovative ways to create games.  He has the power to do that, while most corporations don't.

Either way, I think John would give his support - he was once an indie developer himself!
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Almafeta

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2007, 20:45 »

There is a thing within copyright law called fair use

"Fair use" is unique concept to American law, and is very limited.  Unless Kornel is living in the US, he's violating the copyright law wherever he lives.  Even if he does live in the US, in taking "donations" for his work, he's pretty much negating any chance of a fair-use defense if id decides to sue him.
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MadCoder

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2007, 21:31 »

Unless he could prove that he has only made enough to cover site costs, maint, etc.

Then maybe there is a chance - but I'm not a lawyer, so who knows?


Either way, nobody email id about DoomRL!  Don't want the party stopping already!
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BDR

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2007, 01:08 »

Even if he does live in the US, in taking "donations" for his work, he's pretty much negating any chance of a fair-use defense if id decides to sue him.

There's a guy named Brian who has similarly produced a fan work using copyrighted sprites from Final Fantasy 1; he takes donations (and happens to be very popular, so I find it difficult to believe Squeenix has no knowledge at all of his work); and he has not had issues.  I'd say the usage of material there is at least as extensive as in DoomRL.
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Almafeta

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2007, 06:31 »

There's a guy named Brian who has similarly produced a fan work using copyrighted sprites from Final Fantasy 1; he takes donations (and happens to be very popular, so I find it difficult to believe Squeenix has no knowledge at all of his work); and he has not had issues.  I'd say the usage of material there is at least as extensive as in DoomRL.

That falls under parody, which is an entirely different section of the law altogether.
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Santiago Zapata

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2007, 07:44 »

That falls under parody, which is an entirely different section of the law altogether.

That sounds interesting, I wonder if DoomRL could be considered a parody of Doom? :D
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MadCoder

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2007, 07:44 »

Yes, I looked at the site and I agree - it's comic humor, not reproduced artwork for a game.  But I can see why you thought that.


So the wall kicked my butt over and over.  I finally kicked back with several rocket rounds and my chaingun.  As far as a reward goes, I was expecting something...more?  Well, the reward was still worth it.


Now if I can just beat the Cathedral...........soon...I will soon...
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Gamera

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2007, 07:54 »

If he contacts them and they don't C&D him they will be giving him de facto permission to use their intellectual property and may lose a court case if they ever need to force him to stop. So as long as they know about it but don't have any correspondence they can pretend not to know about it and still retain the option to protect their IP. So it's best not to force the issue by contacting them directly.

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Almafeta

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2007, 08:09 »

If he contacts them and they don't C&D him they will be giving him de facto permission to use their intellectual property and may lose a court case if they ever need to force him to stop.

Again, false.  Just because someone in the company may have recieved correspondence does not prove the company management or legal team knew about it.  Kornel doesn't have that luxury; he knows Doom is © Id, as any look at this forum or the DoomRL website can tell you.

(IANAL, but I'm in a position to lose big if I misunderstand copyright law, which is why I make sure I understand it as best I can ^^; )
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Gamera

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2007, 22:41 »

Depends on who he contacts really.
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MadCoder

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2007, 15:03 »

Depends on who he contacts really.


Even more importantly, who responds, and how the contact is made.  A phone call...hard to prove what was said.  An email or letter, easier to prove DoomRL is ok for Kornel to make.


Once agin, however, I'm not a lawyer...
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TFoN

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2007, 12:07 »

Either way, nobody email id about DoomRL!  Don't want the party stopping already!

Now, this is the kind of thing you should never post, as it could easily seem hostile, either honestly or for purposes of a lawsuit. Either way, apparent secrecy's never taken well in these cases.

MadCoder

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2007, 17:04 »

I think that the only thing that would need to be changed is some of the text and maybe the title/intro.  Overall its close but not quite doom.  And the game isn't really a secret anyway!  But I understand your point, and its well taken.
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Santiago Zapata

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2007, 13:16 »

I think Kornel's disclaimer on the manual states clearly he doesnt want to challenge the property of ID software. Anyway, in the case he had to change the theme of the game, wouldnt you play it anymore? (say, no longer DoomRL but HellRL, with BloodDemons instead of Cacodemons, etc)
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MadCoder

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2007, 16:22 »

I think Kornel's disclaimer on the manual states clearly he doesnt want to challenge the property of ID software. Anyway, in the case he had to change the theme of the game, wouldnt you play it anymore? (say, no longer DoomRL but HellRL, with BloodDemons instead of Cacodemons, etc)

Indeed, the mass murders would continue...all the way up to the CyberSpaceDemon!
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Almafeta

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2007, 08:35 »

I think Kornel's disclaimer on the manual states clearly he doesnt want to challenge the property of ID software. Anyway, in the case he had to change the theme of the game, wouldnt you play it anymore? (say, no longer DoomRL but HellRL, with BloodDemons instead of Cacodemons, etc)

I'd approve of that change, actually!  You can copyright specifics, but you can't copyright a general theme...  and he wouldn't have to play nice with canon.  ^_^
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TFoN

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2007, 09:52 »

And HellRL has a great ring to it :)

Maybe this could be a branch game, enabling many new additions both through legal rights and a lack of context restriction (i.e. "undoomish"'ll be much less of an argument).

bfg9001

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2007, 16:26 »

Hm.... HellRL would be pretty cool; personally, something like HellGateRL would be balls to the wall, lol.
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Almafeta

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2007, 11:32 »

And HellRL has a great ring to it :)

Maybe this could be a branch game, enabling many new additions both through legal rights and a lack of context restriction (i.e. "undoomish"'ll be much less of an argument).

Imagine a game like DiabloRL.  Instead of having one dungeon that you go through sequentially, there is a randomly-generated 'overland' that represents a Hell-infested city.  In the beginning you are simply trying to clear out skyscrapers (a la DialboRL's dungeons) to take the city back from the undead, but as Hell begins to take the war to the city directly, you have to descend directly into different pockets of hell...

It wouldn't be quite so 'Coffeebreak'-y, but then again, Kornel's epitomized that genre with Berserk.  ^^;
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MadCoder

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2007, 16:10 »

Yeah, that's a sweet idea Almafeta.  Could be kinda like 'Escape from New York,' with destroyed/abandoned buildings, wrecked cars, etc.  Could find all kinds of 'goodies' throughout the buildings - from weapons and ammo, to food, computers, etc.

There could be certain locations that help the player, like a clinic of hospital that can heal the player.  The downdside to this always being available is that the player would have to travel (and fight) to get there.   The place also might want a fee or tade for something.

Other places might be a police station (guns and equipment), grocery store (food), gas station (fuel/oil), etc.

There might also be humans still alive, fighting the enemies, or running scared.

After clearing out much of the surface, the sewers would need to be fought in, and that might lead to the Hellgate.

If enough thought was put into it, it could really have lots of neat twists.
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xwdishere

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2007, 19:28 »

If you're not allowed to use the files based on Doom, you could look to the Freedoom project for inspiration. That was a project to allow people to be able to use a Doom source port without having the original pwad file.
Anyway, I agree with people who say id software shouldn't be too upset about DoomRL. Playing DoomRL is not going to keep me from buying any of their products, since it is a fan game. Remember Doom 2D?
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Gamera

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2007, 05:16 »

Sounds like alphaman a bit haha. That was a neat game if a bit unpolished and unbalanced. I want an AlienDoomRL now dammit. Or a PredatorsVsAlienDoomRL!
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2007, 11:27 »

Gamera, don't loose your hope, and check the forums around the 12th of March ;].

As for the hell city, don't you guys remember what DoomRL writes on a final ending? ;]]]]
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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2007, 05:50 »

I wouldn't know what the ending says Kornel you made the game too hard!
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MadCoder

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Re: Doom, id, and copyright issues
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2007, 10:20 »

Gamera, don't loose your hope, and check the forums around the 12th of March ;].

As for the hell city, don't you guys remember what DoomRL writes on a final ending? ;]]]]

Could there be an AliensRL in the works?!?  Could it be released March 12th?!?

One can only hope...
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