Jupiter Hell > General Discussion
Design Rant : Inventory
Kornel Kisielewicz:
I'm gonna start doing some design rants, gathering public input -- these are targeted both at the dev team as well as anyone willing to contribute. Let's show some activity :). These rants often will be about things that already have been designed for Jupiter Hell (sometimes even initially implemented), but we're keeping our options open. This is your chance to influence the game!
Today's topic will be Inventory, and items in general. While the DoomRL system works, I have a deeper wish of streamlining some things, especially the ones that either enforce grinding or micromanagement. Inventory is one of the more severe issues.
Because a picture is worth a thousand words, let's start with a mockup (done by a complete amateur, ergo myself):
Let's split it into topics:
1. Equipment and Inventory
Equipment/Inventory will function similarly to DoomRL, but with a different presentation (think the Diablo equipment screen), and with a couple more slots. The left/right hand, armor and boots slots stay, but additionally we'll have a head slot and two device slots (think hacking and electronics). Moreover, some equipment pieces will introduce their own slots -- weapons may have 1+ different mod slots (possibly an ammo slot if we go for different ammo), powered armor may have power and extension slots, etc. The big difference I plan however is that anything that is worn, still takes space in inventory. Why? Because similarly to Diablo, not all equipment will take the same amount of space, and this way we'll cut down on any equipment shuffling needed to swap items, and get rid of metagaming moves like carrying a huge item in your hand to save on inventory space. To balance this out, the inventory will be made bigger. Does this make sense? Will this introduce any problems? Any ideas on this front?
2. Ammo
This is a biggie. My initial need of reconstructing the inventory came from my happiness with the AliensRL system. And following it, I wanted to introduce set ammo counters like in AliensRL and Doom. However, this takes away a significant strategic challenge of balancing your ammo types, and balancing your ammo vs. consumables/spare weapons. However, with the DoomRL solution this becomes a constant game of micromanagement also, and swapping items a lot. So I need a solution that did include the strategy of ammo management, but took away the need of fiddling with a lot of items.
The solution I'm thinking about is having all ammo in something that is similar to current ammo boxes. You have a running total of your ammo, that is limited by the amount of ammo boxes you have. So if you have 3 boxes of shells, you can hold at most 3*50 shells. Any shells you find are automatically fit into the boxes, but you get a no-room message as soon as you run out of boxes. You can additionally find new boxes of course, but whether you add them to your inventory or not, this is your decision. Boxes also have different sizes, so e.g. a single box of rockets already takes up 2x3 of space.
Comments? Alternative solutions?
3. Ammo types
There have been requests for different ammo types for both AliensRL and DoomRL, but I always rejected them due to the added UI complexity. With graphics though, we have a couple more options, also the slot system outlined above would fit with different ammo types nicely. The only issue here is that with this system, you should have separate ammo boxes for separate ammo types, which obviously doesn't make much sense.
4. Items on floor
Here's a biggie -- I think about removing items on floor altogether. Items can be found on (highlighted) corpses, lockers, boxes, etc. Dropped items get destroyed. This would prevent doing tedious stash micromanagement, and increase the pace of the game. Also, it'd work well with the boxes idea -- players wont be tempted to do tedious backtracking to get ammo they left behind and couldn't pick up. This is probably the most controversial decision, but it would (IMHO) benefit the game much.
I'll conclude this first design rant here, hoping to hear feedback and comments from the community -- the way Jupiter Hell will look like is in your hands!
Thiebs:
--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 23, 2014, 04:30 ---Let's show some activity :).
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Yay! Activity!
--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 23, 2014, 04:30 ---additionally we'll have a head slot and two device slots (think hacking and electronics).
--- End quote ---
Cooooolllll....
--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 23, 2014, 04:30 ---To balance this out, the inventory will be made Does this make sense?
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Assuming you meant 'will be made bigger.' Correct?
--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 23, 2014, 04:30 ---The solution I'm thinking about is having all ammo in something that is similar to current ammo boxes.
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I've spoken on this one before for Doomrl, and I like this solution. The alternate ammo container thing is iffy, though. Hmmm... Maybe have alternate ammo boxes be more compact, so as to mitigate the issue of carrying extra boxes? 'Cause Frag-12 rounds would be a pretty sweet thing to find, but probably a lot less common, so you wouldn't need as big of a box.
Kornel Kisielewicz:
--- Quote from: Thiebs on January 23, 2014, 04:55 ---Assuming you meant 'will be made bigger.' Correct?
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Uh yeah, corrected, thanks :)
--- Quote from: Thiebs on January 23, 2014, 04:55 ---I've spoken on this one before for Doomrl, and I like this solution. The alternate ammo container thing is iffy, though. Hmmm... Maybe have alternate ammo boxes be more compact, so as to mitigate the issue of carrying extra boxes? 'Cause Frag-12 rounds would be a pretty sweet thing to find, but probably a lot less common, so you wouldn't need as big of a box.
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They could be made more compact. Still, waiting for all brainstorm to happen :P
thelaptop:
I have few comments on inventory except please make it less annoying than SotS: the pit. I can't bloody hell decipher what it is I have most of the time without hovering my mouse over them, and it gets worse for stacked objects. Also representation in console mode, which seems to be something that you have planned for.
I'd rather make it such that you can store extra rounds when you don't have boxes, except that you have to pay an inefficiency premium. For instance, say a box can handle 50 shotgun rounds. If you run out of boxes, you can trade up one inventory slot for every 30 shotgun rounds. Each time you reload, you will first load from these loose rounds before going for the stuff in the boxes. So we allow some trade off here while minimising micromanagement, and can encourage planning ahead for more DAKKA without having first finding boxes. Think of this as a gradual backpack upgrade in DoomRL parlance.
As for ammo types, I'd rather think of it as gun-level alterations. Maybe a mod that allows the chambered round take on different characteristics. I'm stealing this concept from Borderlands 2, of course.
Kornel Kisielewicz:
--- Quote from: thelaptop on January 23, 2014, 05:46 ---I have few comments on inventory except please make it less annoying than SotS: the pit. I can't bloody hell decipher what it is I have most of the time without hovering my mouse over them, and it gets worse for stacked objects. Also representation in console mode, which seems to be something that you have planned for.
--- End quote ---
I need to play it again. Still while playing I saw so many things in the UI that annoyed me that it will be time not wasted :P
--- Quote from: thelaptop on January 23, 2014, 05:46 ---I'd rather make it such that you can store extra rounds when you don't have boxes, except that you have to pay an inefficiency premium. For instance, say a box can handle 50 shotgun rounds. If you run out of boxes, you can trade up one inventory slot for every 30 shotgun rounds. Each time you reload, you will first load from these loose rounds before going for the stuff in the boxes. So we allow some trade off here while minimising micromanagement, and can encourage planning ahead for more DAKKA without having first finding boxes. Think of this as a gradual backpack upgrade in DoomRL parlance.
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While this'd give even a more strategic approach, it'd revert the gain that I wanted with the ammo boxes. In DoomRL each time you find a new item, you need to ditch ammo -- which is annoying. The limited boxes were meant to prevent that, while this solution will bring us back to point zero.
--- Quote from: thelaptop on January 23, 2014, 05:46 ---As for ammo types, I'd rather think of it as gun-level alterations. Maybe a mod that allows the chambered round take on different characteristics. I'm stealing this concept from Borderlands 2, of course.
--- End quote ---
This'd be a good solution if we can't find any other.
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