Jupiter Hell > General Discussion

Design Rant : Inventory

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RogerN:

--- Quote ---Here's a biggie -- I think about removing items on floor altogether. Items can be found on (highlighted) corpses, lockers, boxes, etc. Dropped items get destroyed. This would prevent doing tedious stash micromanagement, and increase the pace of the game. Also, it'd work well with the boxes idea -- players wont be tempted to do tedious backtracking to get ammo they left behind and couldn't pick up. This is probably the most controversial decision, but it would (IMHO) benefit the game much. 
--- End quote ---

1) In general I don't like the feel of destroy-on-drop; it feels a little too contrived.  I don't find the stash management to be all that tedious personally.
2) I don't think this mechanic would alleviate backtracking much anyway, as players will still backtrack to get at the corpses, lockers, boxes, etc...
3) OTOH, perhaps you could include a scavenger-type enemy or mechanic that eats/destroys items on the floor when the player isn't around?  Your stuff wouldn't get eaten 100% of the time but it would always be at risk.

emulord:
My thoughts on this:
This style of inventory sucks. I love a plain simple list. Playing tetris slows down the game in a way that breaks your "gunning" mindset.
Dropping destroying things sucks.

Having (equipped) at the end of a list is fine. Reworking ammo boxes, modpacks is fine. Having items take up multiple slots (large weapons + armors) is fine.

LuckyDee:
Right, now that I have a moment to properly respond, I might as well try and make most of it:

1. Equipment and Inventory

The equipment part seems find to me. It makes sense to also have equipment take up inventory space, but I wonder if that isn't just taking it too far. Especially when:


--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 23, 2014, 04:30 ---To balance this out, the inventory will be made bigger.
--- End quote ---

Why bother at all, then? To translate a beautiful Dutch saying, it'll be 'fucking around in the margins'. This might depend on the inventory management part, though, since I share emulord's Tetris Stance. Thinking back to Diablo II: "Hell yes I can carry that dagger, it fits right below the gothic plate. Now turn, damn you!". It'll be micromanagement all over again, just in a different guise.
Alternatives? First thing that springs to mind is Baldur's Gate and other D&D based games, where you have a limited number of slots and a maximum weight you are able to carry. Not the prettiest solution, but possibly reworkable. I'm sure there are those among us with better alternatives. Say it, baby; say it, babyyyyyyyyyyy!


2. Ammo


--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 23, 2014, 04:30 ---I need a solution that did include the strategy of ammo management, but took away the need of fiddling with a lot of items.
--- End quote ---

I completely fail to see how your proposed solution changes anything. In the end you'll still be deciding whether you'll be sacrificing the space for Ammo Type A, Ammo Type B, a medkit or an armor. You'll just have it in boxes instead of in stacks.
Give the player 2 ammo slots, to be assigned to a given type of ammo at game start (or rather, pre-assigned). Give the player a Doomish max ammo count for each type. Screw inventory. Allow the player to gain ammo slots (increasing the number of ammo types the player can use) to be assigned at the moment they are encountered. They can be used for ammo for new types of weapon, or for alternative ammo types for available weapons. Restrict the ammo the player can choose to assign to elements he's encountered in the game. Use the DoomRL Medal/Badge system for this, so that the choices are expanded after each game. After go-live, you can even update with new types of ammo.
To increase ammo slot capacity, use something similar to Doom's Backpack.

3. Ammo types

See 2.

4. Items on floor

Tough one. As I said before, chances of accidentally dropping stuff should be slim to none, but I agree that it would really work well on the game's pace. As an aside, if you eliminate the need for the player to go back to previous levels to flip a switch/access a terminal/destroy a power generator/etc as well, this choice would make backtracking completely redundant. Backtracking's not very 90's FPS anyway (:

This:

--- Quote from: RogerN on January 23, 2014, 11:49 ---2) I don't think this mechanic would alleviate backtracking much anyway, as players will still backtrack to get at the corpses, lockers, boxes, etc...
--- End quote ---
constitutes a valid point, too. My Completionist OCD levels would run high enough as to carry as little stuff as possible up until the end of the level, then go back and fill up my inventory as tediously efficient as possible. Pace? What pace?
And I'm assuming your theory means stashing stuff in said lockers is off-limits, since it would eliminate the thought behind your idea in a spectacularly annoying fashion. And being able to take something from a locker without being able to put anything back in almost always smells of poor design.

There. That about sums it up so far. I do so hope I said something stupid that makes other people come up with brilliant stuff again (:

Sylph:
I don't like the idea of this inventory system. One of my favourite things about doomrl is the simplicity of the inventory system, but emergent strategy that it brings. For me, emergent depth from simplicity is one of the ideals of game design.
The new proposal just seems to imply 'tetrising' as emulord so beautifully put it!
Also, you would not want to discard your precious ammo box even if it was almost empty, which destroys the strategy of casting off a little of your ammo to take a few extra medpacks depending on your next area (strategy) because, essentially, you're always gonna want your 4-slot box.

In summary, if your goal was "I need a solution that did include the strategy of ammo management, but took away the need of fiddling with a lot of items.", I think (and I hate to criticise, you're a god to me!) you missed it on both marks. Your solution creates more of a need to fiddle with a lot of items, and removes strategy!

Also, I should mention that I find doomrl's inventory *far* more satisfying that ADOM or nethack, which use a weight-based system. i like your mock-up of the inventory screen a lot, but I think you should go back to 1 item/1 slot, or at the very least ditch this ammo box idea!

Oh, btw, on the subject of switching weapons (mentioned earlier), it might be a fun idea to try out switching to a hotkeyed weapon (aka jugglable weapon) takes the same amount of time as pulling it from the pack, but allows the player to spend that time moving, closing doors, even attacking in melee! It would increase mobility, and mobility usually equals strategy in turn based games.

Aerton:
This reminds me of Resident Evil 4 more than of Diablo. Perhaps, some reasoning about it can be applied to JH.


It does not have slots on a doll for a reason. Items still occupy the bag space when equipped, so it would add nothing, but confusion to the UI. Current weapon is highlighted by background and a little 'E' in the corner. Also, you can see Leon wielding the gun. Also, his cloth changes, even if the armour set is not represented in the bagpack. I think it's because there is no reason ever carry a spare vest, so they just reduced the inventory space by a few rows it would take otherwise.

Even though RE4 is an action-oriented game and a very fun one, I remember spending more time rearranging things than I would like. Especially towards the end, when there are more weapons to carry and the bag size gets upgraded. Assuming JH will have more different items, the backpack optimisation minigame ought to be played even more often.

I like simplicity of a plain inventory list in DRL. It's provides the information at a glance, is sorted by type, and you can easily see how much more space you have. I also see a benefit of providing a player with a dilemma - to carry one great item, or a few lesser ones. Can the same choice be provided while keeping the simple structure?

What if an item name was in bigger letters so it takes a two or even three lines in the list? Of course, the actual representation in the graphical game needs to be richer than a bigger font - think of it of having the same inventory grid but it has only one column and all items still having varying vertical size, while all sharing the same width. Since it's actually a 1D space, there is no need for spatial optimisation minigame and items can be freely rearranged. Essentially, this will have the same usability of DRL inventory, while allowing the items to differ in size.

Not sure about having different ammo types and having no items on the floor. The two seems to be at odds. One is a trait of a deliberate slow survival game, another is a better fit for hot-packed action.

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