DoomRL > Discussion
Only played this for a weekish now, some praises/questions
Ghaleon:
First off, this game is mega-fun. I can't keep my hands off it! I finished it twice now onHNTR, and NEARLY finished it on HMP but.. more on that later. I'd like to ask questions, and critique the game though, so take it as you will.
1: First off, I read the newbie guide here awhile ago and one of its earlier points is damage avoidance...I understand dodging, the I'm not too sure on the cover mechanics because the pictures on the guide aren't showing for me despite looking at it on 3 seperate computers and browser. Sometimes I would assume I'm behind cover cuz I'll be behind a door and the dude I'm shooting at is approximately a 45 degree angle from the door at a distance. However they still hit me about half the time.. I know about acorner shooting, and how they wont even try to shoot me then, but...well, sometimes that's just not an option, unless I gift drop maybe, but tbh I don't intend to attempt that level of play just yet. I'm still in just have fun mode rather than try to clear on nightmare without taking a single hit mode =P. HOWEVER I watched a youtube video of this one dude who was just standing in the open with like 8 dudes shooting at him and he was not getting hit? wtf? Is this just just OBSCENELY lucky? or are the cover mechanics totally unintuitive and working for him here?
The "wtf" portion is at 0:40-0:50.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNICVUI6hlg
Seriously, I feel if I was playing on even the easiest mode, I'd be dead before entering the damn base....this dude looks like a straight up hacker from my experience, but I'm guessing I'm missing some mechanic or something?
Anyway, moving on to my critiques about the game (it's amazing, I'm just a critic, so don't think I'm bashing it), please consider this as just player feedback for future improvements or whatever (and if anyone thinks this is based of noob ignorance, lemmie know, I'm open).
1: The player customization/specs seem kinda...well they seem less about picking a playstyle/strategy, and more about gambling on what weapons you are hoping to obtain. I mean every master spec seems to cater around a particular gun family, and the problem with that is you really can't control what guns you get or not. Even basic mods can screw you (my first clear I didn't find a single bulk mod until the vault.. yes, the vault... on my 2nd playthru, I didn't get a single power mod until late deimos... and on my 3rd playthru, let's not even go there). I know randomness and roguelikes is like peanut butter and jelly, but talents/perks/skills are clearly very weapon-familiy oriented in this game (advanced ones anyway). I hope the skills in Jupiter hell will be less "pick what guns you think you'll actually find good drops for!" specs, and more playstyle specs...
2: I plan on playing the 100 floor challenge next game so no comment there. But for the "normal" game, it seems to me that loot is pretty much non-existant aside from the optional floors. I can't think of a single time I got a unique or artifact from a random-generated floor, they're ALWAYS from the special floors. Am I just unlucky or?
3: I was lucky and this happened when I was doing a burst build (and hence could simply outgun him), but when you're in the tower of babel...the cyber demon can spawn RIGHT NEXT TO YOU.... Pretty sure you can't even make it to the nearest possible cover if you need to otherwise... I just stood there and burst-fired him to death (he still got a couple shots off but he died first because I had those few free turns you get when you first enter a new floor, which I suspect aren't enough to dash for cover unless you're some kinda speed demon build with phaseshift boots and armor and and and and....
4: Spider overlord seems pretty easy for a final boss. Maybe add motor fire to the floor? Maybe it's just cuz I've only faced him on HNTR though, not sure.
5: having a modable tag on items would be nice. I really have no way of knowing if an item is modable or not without simply trying to mod it.
6: Question: Is the game itself modable? not sure if I want to even try any at this point, but it would be cool to at least have a level editor and for players to make their own campaigns.
7: question: If anyone can show me any great guides other than the newbie guide thingie stickied on these boards let me know, I'd love to look at them!
LuckyDee:
Hey there! Welcome to DoomRL and the Chaosforge Forum! Unfortunately I don't have the time to write you an elaborate story - which your post deserves - and by the time I do, at least half a dozen other will have beat me to it. A couple of things I can point out:
1) Yes, luck does play an important factor. It's definitely not the be-all and end-all, but it's impact is not to be underestimated. I had a look at the bit of movie you referred to, and that smells lucky to me (and I should know, you'd say. Or at least I do). Having the Cyberdemon spawn next to you may sound unlucky, but if you're playing a melee game of course... And good items are definitely not restricted to special levels, although some of the levels give you certain guarantees that normal levels definitely don't.
2) Go to YouTube and find videos by Game Hunter (I believe his YT channel is UberHunter or TheUberHunter). It's in console mode - I don't think graphics mode was even released back then - but his spoken commentary is a big help, and he has a nicely soothing voice.
3) Stick around these forums. Ask anything and everything. You'll get more help than you'll know what to do with.
Go get em, tiger!
Equality:
--- Quote ---The "wtf" portion is at 0:40-0:50.
--- End quote ---
and so what? You are standing at edge of visible range (accuracy fall with distance!). Formers do not gain accuracy bonus from equipped pistols (? not sure but seems so). It is Easy difficulty. You are lucky! :)
--- Quote ---1: The player customization/specs seem kinda...well they seem less about picking a playstyle/strategy, and more about gambling on what weapons you are hoping to obtain
--- End quote ---
do not understand. You play the game. You have a favorite tactics. For example you DO NOT love pistols. But loves shotguns. You choose a shotgun build and just drop away all junk like blaster-combat pistol-Trigun etc :) And go with your lovely shotgun. If you find a Jackhammer - good. But you can win having only shotgun, why not? No, do not change tactics if you find something. No, do not hope to obtain special weapon - you can not obtain it if you are not lucky. Even guaranteed specials like missile launcher, chainsaw or BFG not guaranteed at all! Situations becomes hot, and you do not go to special level for that weapon. So, you choose what you will do - and DO! namely picking playstyle and do not worry about special/uniques that you may find.
--- Quote --- I can't think of a single time I got a unique or artifact from a random-generated floor, they're ALWAYS from the special floors. Am I just unlucky or?
--- End quote ---
artifacts always on special floors. Uniques are rare and you can find 1 in 20 runs. Or 2 in one. Luck, random and nothing more. But some of special floors have a good chance for uniques generation.
PS sorry for my english :)
Tormuse:
First off, welcome to the forums and welcome to DoomRL! :D I agree that it's a pretty awesome and addictive game; I can't keep my hands off it myself. :)
--- Quote from: Ghaleon on February 20, 2014, 23:10 ---1: First off, I read the newbie guide here awhile ago and one of its earlier points is damage avoidance...I understand dodging, the I'm not too sure on the cover mechanics because the pictures on the guide aren't showing for me despite looking at it on 3 seperate computers and browser. Sometimes I would assume I'm behind cover cuz I'll be behind a door and the dude I'm shooting at is approximately a 45 degree angle from the door at a distance. However they still hit me about half the time.. I know about acorner shooting, and how they wont even try to shoot me then, but...well, sometimes that's just not an option, unless I gift drop maybe, but tbh I don't intend to attempt that level of play just yet. I'm still in just have fun mode rather than try to clear on nightmare without taking a single hit mode =P. HOWEVER I watched a youtube video of this one dude who was just standing in the open with like 8 dudes shooting at him and he was not getting hit? wtf? Is this just just OBSCENELY lucky? or are the cover mechanics totally unintuitive and working for him here?
The "wtf" portion is at 0:40-0:50.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNICVUI6hlg
Seriously, I feel if I was playing on even the easiest mode, I'd be dead before entering the damn base....this dude looks like a straight up hacker from my experience, but I'm guessing I'm missing some mechanic or something?
--- End quote ---
Naw, your instincts are correct; I don't know who this guy is, but he's clearly not doing anything to seek cover at all. I'd say it's just lucky that all those former humans kept missing him. (To be honest, I felt like yelling at the screen several times during that video) :P
As for the newbie guide, do you mean this one? If so, it's not a problem with your browser; I'm getting a 404 error when I try to view the images, meaning they don't exist or have been moved or something. Someone should probably update that.
a 45 degree angle from the door does nothing to protect you; corner-shooting looks more like this... (excuse my ASCII art)
--- Code: ---.B........
######@...
######....
######....
--- End code ---
...where "@" is you and "B" is a Baron, for example. From this position, you can shoot at him without him seeing you. Trouble is you can't see him either from here, so sometimes, it's preferable to get into this position...
--- Code: ---.B........
######.@..
######....
######....
--- End code ---
...because now, you can see him (which makes your rapid weapons more accurate) and shoot him without him shooting you, but it's a little riskier because he'll start shooting you when he gets two or three squares away, whereas in the first image, he won't attack until he's at point-blank range. You kind of have to gauge your surroundings and figure out what works best in any given situation.
As for all the other stuff...
1) Yes, the master traits are based around a particular weapon type and yes, the RNG can really screw you over by giving you the wrong equipment for the character you are trying to build sometimes; sometimes you just have to adapt your strategy as you go and hope for the best. The play balance for the randomness has been adjusted many times with each version of the game over the years; I agree it can be frustrating when you get an unlucky game, but I guess you just kind of have to remind yourself about the PB+J and not let it bother you too much and hope you get a better one next time. (Incidentally, I recommend trying the optional levels; they can be pretty tough, but also very rewarding! They're a major source of mod packs if that's what you're looking for)
2) There's a reason that there's a medal for getting three uniques in one game; it doesn't happen very often. It makes it all the more valuable when you do get them. (I've had the occasional lucky game when I got 6 uniques! Just luck of the draw) Also, I'm pretty sure that if you get a weapon that perfectly suits your build, like say, a Grammaton Cleric Berreta on a Gun Kata build, you are legally required to emit an evil laugh. :P As for the other occasions, well... Someone made a comic on that subject. :)
3) That's a freakin' unlucky starting point... :| unless you're playing a melee build, in which case that's a freakin' lucky starting point! ;) (Seriously, I've had games when I wished for that kind of setup) There's your PB+J again. :)
4) The Spider Mastermind is a relatively new addition to the game and I know that her AI has been tweaked a few times; it could be that she needs some more tweaking.
5) I agree that would be nice. In the meantime, you can find info on the DoomRL wiki.
6) Absolutely! We have a whole sub forum dedicated to everything related to modding. I dabbled a bit with it myself, but never created anything as ambitious as a campaign. If you create anything like that, I'd be curious to see it.
7) I'm not sure, to be honest; someone else will have to post that. I honed my DoomRL skills by just playing lots. :)
Sylph:
1: You're probably doing corner shooting correctly. Enemies don't shoot back when you are corner shooting correctly.
Dodge mechanics are a seperate thing, and actually work quite intuitively - enemies can miss you anytime, but you only dodge when you are moving (and if you don't dodge in the right direction, you'll get hit anyway) - effectively, there are 3 things that can happen to a shot - it can hit the target, it can miss the target (pass right over her), or it can hit the square upon which she was standing last turn.
The third possibility is extremely common. In running mode, slow projectiles (like imp or baron bullets) only roll 'hit' something like 1/5 attacks.
Oh, and that video was very good luck. Something like 1/200 good luck!
(That said, it's not impossible for even experienced players to utilise the 'stand in the open and get lucky' strategy to avoid death - I got some flak for 1:45 - 2:26 in this video!:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEGKushTuBQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=105
Second1: Player customisation isn't as bad as it may seem! Lots of the best builds are actually *not* master builds (in fact master builds are ideal for maybe 1/3 games at a high level of play). Even without master builds, though, things tend to get pretty specialised, as you noticed. The trick is balancing skills that you need now, vs those which you will need in future. Example; pistols make for a very weak early game, but Son of a Gun level 5 is probably the most powerful skill in the game when you're above level 12! A lot of character build planning is about what you can get away with given the weapon drops, and primarily concerns how long you can sit on 'neutral' traits like hellrunner and finesse (and especially 'juggler') before you specialise. A similar dilemna surrounds many modpacks - Can you hold on to those bulk packs, in the hopes of finding a nano in the armoury, when you''d really like to be able to use them to build a gatling gun right now?
I'd like to mention it's *possible* to play end-game high-difficulty jack-of-all-trades characters (I have a great pistol/melee/shotgun build), but it's a tricky path to tread!
2: You get some great loot on normal floors! Special levels, though, as you noticed, are probably more instrumental in your fancy arsenal!
3: Even if you appear far from the cyberdemon, it's worth noting that getting behind cover doesn't mean much against him... His weapon has a large blast radius, don't think he doesn't know how to use it strategically!
4: The spider overmind can be a little easy for many characters, yes. She's mainly soft, brainy tissue though, she can't be that tough! ;)
5: Good point about mods - it's confusing to inexperienced players. Weapons and armour should probably have 'empty slots' to demonstrate how they can be modded.
6: The game is slightly moddabale
7: I wrote a guide a long time ago (years ago), which was well received, especially (wierdly) on forums outside chaosforge!
I've been hugely expanding it, meaning to comprehensively update it, and it's currently close to ready - only a few of the special levels (the ones after the wall), and the parts after 'assemblies' concerning traits, builds, and monsters) are still out of date.
I've hosted the 'half update' version here, as an exclusive special scoop just for you!
http://sylph.me.uk/2%20games/doomrl/DoomRLGuide.txt
(Hope you feel really special! x)
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