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Author Topic: Advice for pistol builds requested  (Read 5118 times)

Svankensen

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Advice for pistol builds requested
« on: June 20, 2014, 21:24 »

So, i won a burst scout today, reached Mt Erebus with a fireangel (lesson learned: explosions may not hurt you, but the lava they throw you in does) and... died repeatedly before even reaching the bruiser brothers with a pistol technician. I havent even been able to get the master trait yet, early survival is pretty hard. Im going Sog, Sog, Sog, EE, EE, EE, or at least thats the plan, i have survived to lvl 5 at most. So, advice? Im tempted to not use the pistol for a while, relying on the goodwill of the chaingun and the shotgun, but without any kind of support, those weapons dont cut it either. I mean, math tells me the pistol is straight out better thn the chaingun with SoG 3, and even with SoG 2 considering the accuracy, but it feels underpowered. So, general and particular advice welcome.

Stuff like "dont use the technician" would welcome some explanation, btw. And lowering the difficulty is out of the question, HMP feels right for me.
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LuckyDee

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Re: Advice for pistol builds requested
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2014, 23:36 »

Well, you really said it yourself: early survival is a bitch, even more so when you try to reach Sharpshooter than with Bullet Dance (which requires SOB) or Gun Kata (HR). The traits for MSs are less diverse, not giving you much benefit outside of the pistol family. You could try using EE to your advantage with rapidfire weapons, but without SOB the damage will probably be too low.
When I play a pistol game, I nearly always go for MSs still. Relying on shotguns early game works well enough, but by the time you reach SOG3 the pistol's already a valid choice for most situations. I agree with your progression btw, first SOG3, than EE3, than MSs.

Aside from gift-dropping and corner-shooting - have you had a look at these yet? - pistol builds really benefit from (run/)wait tactics. I'm assuming you have found the 'wait' command, which leaves you idle for 1.0s. If you use 'run'-'wait', you will idle until something steps into your FOV, giving you the first action against them in most situations. Only enemies with a move speed <1.0s might be able land a hit on you before you can respond. Either way, you can go for the attack if the enemy's weak enough, or you can use your headstart to tag your opponent (hit him once so he's going to go after you) and then lure him to a suitable location where you can cornershoot him.
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ZicherCZ

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Re: Advice for pistol builds requested
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2014, 00:22 »

Sharpshooter is an incredible trait once you get it- Even your basic pistol does 33 bullet damage per second (with the starting T-mod applied to it). So you need to survive that long.

First, trait order SoG3 -> EE3 -> MSs is fine in my experience. You may choose EE1 instead of SoG3 at level 3, but IMHO the firing speed is better. You should start with a T-mod - apply it to your starting pistol on turn 1.

The key to survive early is to play cowardly. Like, really cowardly. Find a sweet spot so that enemies may only come to you from where you can easily cornershoot them. With SoG3 you do enough damage that everything up to pinky demons have little chance getting in a shot at all. Don't explore the level - everything will sooner or later come to you. Setting the Run-Wait command to some very high turncount in the config file helps.
Also, check the number of enemies on the floor (via @ key) each time you enter a level and every now and then. It helps for keeping track.

If you are not playing AoMr, always carry a shotgun and a few spare shells for crowd control (especially for tough starting positions).

Instead of lowering your difficulty level, consider raising it to UV. You'll have even more deaths, more enemies, and hell knights in the fray at level 3, sure - but the increase in XP is enough to get you to XL7 before Phobos Anomaly, where Sharpshooter is tremendous.

This connects to my suggested special levels:
Skip Arena, unless you care for the badge. Once you have the badge, Arena seems pointless to me. Another option is to clear only the first two waves and then leave, to have normal Chained Court.
If you skipped the Arena, Chained Court with five Berserk packs should be a breeze - two zerk for one half, two zerk for left half, destroy the two boss monsters and that leaves you with one berserk to heal yourself before exiting. The two mods are usually well worth it.
If you get Military Base, you're lucky. This level is fairly easy for a pistol build, just stand at the start and cornershoot everything. Once they stop coming, clear the right half (careful about those three elites in the bottom right corner, though!) then the left half. On UV, this is approximately where MSs kicks in, although at least once I even reached level 8 there.
At Phobos Anomaly, use a phase device when theambush walls open. You'll almost always land in a better position. Alternatively, blast the right door open before triggering the ambush and rocketjump through - two rocketjumps should do the trick for little damage. You'll be in much better position to handle the initial wave.
Further on, it's only about how you feel. Even on HMP, MSs should kick in at the Armory/Deimos Lab, so your damage output should be high enough to offset shamblers' regeneration with little trouble.

Worthwhile assemblies are everything that boosts your speed even more. Tactical armor and boots are particularly helpful in the early game.
Energy pistol is great against revenants, ignoring their bullet resistance (the same goes for lost souls). In particular, it will allow you to do The Wall/Containment Area, especially if you already have MSs. Also, City of Skulls/Abyssal Plains are doable with an energy pistol (it's suicide with bullets only).
The first P mod you'll eventually find means that even a normal P-modded pistol with MSs does 13 damage, which means it does reliable knockback.
But what you really want is to find a combat pistol and some P-mods. This is an outright godsend - with three P mods, MSs and SoG5 you do incredible 230 damage per second, and with further two B mods you have enough ammo capacity to take down Cybie or Spidey before they can even fire a second shot.

There. Hope it helps a bit :).

EDIT: Oh. Ninja'd.
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LuckyDee

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Re: Advice for pistol builds requested
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2014, 00:35 »

EDIT: Oh. Ninja'd.

You're not the only one in this timezone who wakes up early on a Saturday :)
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Svankensen

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Re: Advice for pistol builds requested
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2014, 02:40 »

Thanks a lot for the tips fellas, will give them a try!

I certainly am familiar with corner shooting, but ive never used gift dropping properly (nor any alternate fire option other than rocketjumping), i supose it would cut the exposition rate in half.  Anyway, if you both agree on sharpshooter being particulrly hard i might give other builds a chance if i lose a few more games. Wich of the other two would you recommend? I do have an easier time with the scout generally, if only because the extra speed is amazing at the start.
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ZicherCZ

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Re: Advice for pistol builds requested
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2014, 03:07 »

Well, don't write Sharpshooter off yet - it is tough to get rolling, sure, but the rewards are oh so sweet. Everything that is not a nightmare/boss falls before even having a chance to act, and it works wonders in Ao100 as well.

As for the other builds, it is my impression the Scout and his Gun Kata gets a lot of more love then Marine and his Bullet Dance. Combine the instareload and after-dodge firing speed with scout's already high speed, and you get yourself a real speeder build. Bullet Dance, on the other hand, is terribly ineffective in terms of ammo consumption, and the +50% firing time is just a waste against tougher enemies. You can win with it, sure, but Gun Kata just IMHO feels much, much safer.
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LuckyDee

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Re: Advice for pistol builds requested
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2014, 03:43 »

MBD is easiest to play, provided you make sure to pack as much ammo as possible and then even more. Getting the backpack is nearly a must for MBD builds.
MGK is really fast, but the damage is lousy if you don't find/build a better pistol.
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Svankensen

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Re: Advice for pistol builds requested
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2014, 03:58 »

Will do, i just have to stop being so cheap. Dying with a lot of medkits in my backpack and whatnot. If this build is hard at the begining, well, more reason to spend resources earlier rather than later. playing other roguelikes has spoiled me into a hoarder. Btw, i've been building speedloader pistols, but the decrease in attackspeed when compared to a t-pistol seems not to be worth it. Since im playing techie, im aiming at stormbolters, hopefully a combat one, and having t-pistols instead of speedloaders saves a t-mod that could be used for a microlauncher, for example.

On regards of the arena, i dont have too much trouble doing it (when i survive), and the rewards are amazing. Sure, the chained court is a bit harder, but the rocket launcher always takes care of the Arena Master for me. And once i turn it into a micro launcher, i have a reliable way of dealing with toughies. BTW, ive never been to the vaults without the staff. Is it much harder? Or should i just drop that damned thing?
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LuckyDee

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Re: Advice for pistol builds requested
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2014, 04:11 »

BTW, ive never been to the vaults without the staff. Is it much harder? Or should i just drop that damned thing?

The staff is the only surefire way of getting into all of them. Without the staff, you're at the mercy of the RNG.
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Svankensen

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Re: Advice for pistol builds requested
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2014, 06:59 »

Can i add a firestorm mod to a stormbolt pistol if i have 2 levels in whizkid? that would be a dps dream come true, and i happen to have the mods (ill have to add a few levels of reloader if it happens tho). Otherwise ill just add the firestorm to the plasma rifle (not even sure why i would use the rifle, but its better than leaving the mod lying in deimos lab).

BTW, this means your advice worked ;)

Oh, and i assembled a plasmatic super shotgun, sounds like fun will be had!


EDIT: Nevermind, wiki helped. It seems you need 3 shots to be considered burst.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 09:37 by Svankensen »
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ZicherCZ

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Re: Advice for pistol builds requested
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2014, 09:37 »

Can i add a firestorm mod to a stormbolt pistol if i have 2 levels in whizkid?
You can, but only if you had WK2 before you created that stormbolter.
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Svankensen

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Re: Advice for pistol builds requested
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2014, 09:39 »

You can, but only if you had WK2 when you created that stormbolter.
Wiki says its not considered burst if it has less than 3 shots. I think ill stick to whizkid 1 for the momment being and just spend the firestorm on the plasma rifle.
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Svankensen

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Re: Advice for pistol builds requested
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2014, 12:33 »

Well, damn, the begining was a bumpy ride, but after getting the stormbolt it was all downhill from there. It was the best weapon i've ever wielded. Great accuracy (still, had EEx3), Knockback, fast and as strong as they come, with an oversized clip to boot. I think i only needed to reload midfight once. Soon afterwards i assembled the energy pistol, wich was almost as good, and better against certain enemies, except for the small ammo capacity (the stormbolt was made from a combat pistol i found in the same level i got the whizkid, lucky me, 22 ammo). I never had such a surplus of ammo before. I still didnt dare enter the mortuary, altrough in retrospect it seemed the plasmatic super shotgun gibbed corpses (didnt use it much, tho, i aint sure) if thats the case it might have been a decent idea to use it. So... now i only have to finish a shotgun build, but i consider myself satisfied with my results on this difficulty. A 6% winrate is nothing to sneeze at, so i might move to the daunting higher difficulties.
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