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[BDR]

And having at least 75% of kills. Tough enough ;p (Am I evil?)

Actually, you can't do this on N! unless you are REALLY lucky as far as enemy placement or avoiding damage is concerned (since the corpses are constantly raising, and while there are ways to prevent corpse raising they require that you kill baddies either on doors, on other corpses, or on one of the liquid floors [water, acid, and lava]).  Most likely before you reach the stairs at least a few enemies of those left will be raised by the game, and so it'd be nigh-impossible to really do this intentionally (unless of course you don't mind being really, really slow about it and abuse the AI at all times).  On the other hand, I'd say if kills are a factor in an ULTIMATE CHALLENGE </gameshow announcer voice> then why not 100% kills using only your fists on UV?  No corpse raising, so it would be at least possible to be sure everything was dead before descending the stairs.

[RepoRipper]

TFoN, wiki this: "High Explosive Incendiary/Armor Piercing Ammunition". technically it does not mention them as shotgun shells, but then again thats a HEAP round, which is armour piercing, and SG's in real life are notorious for being useless against armor. then again, they dont have to be, as the spread will rip limbs off, even heads. also HEAP is for rifles, and other point-tipped ammo types. but you can see it has been done. and if it doesnt exist why is it mentioned in almost everything?

punching the cyberdemon to death is pure suicide. even if u had all the bonuses, and lots of meds, and lots of armor... ull never get close enough. his rockets knock u back a space always, 2 usually, i think ive even seen 3 spaces of knockback at point-blank! the closer u get, the more likely he will hit, and the farther back you will get pushed! pure suicide. even if u used the chainsaw!

oh... i had a revelation on the whole special ammunition idea! if Doom 2 had the shotgun, and then the super shotgun, which are basically the same thing, except double the damage and reload time, then why not alternate ammo?

[BDR]

Your many alternate ammo types = complicated.

A double-barreled shotgun and a single-barreled shotgun = not complicated.

Make sense yet?

[RepoRipper]

ok im a little bit of an idiot, but... 2 or 3 ammo types for maybe 1 or 2 weapons? thats not complicated!
but... i concede. permanently. but NOT on the weapon mod part!

[TFoN]

TFoN, wiki this: "High Explosive Incendiary/Armor Piercing Ammunition". technically it does not mention them as shotgun shells, but then again thats a HEAP round, which is armour piercing, and SG's in real life are notorious for being useless against armor. then again, they dont have to be, as the spread will rip limbs off, even heads. also HEAP is for rifles, and other point-tipped ammo types. but you can see it has been done. and if it doesnt exist why is it mentioned in almost everything?

Ahhh, well, that makes all the difference - you're not talking about proper shotgun shells.
Anyway, these implemented (as they are) in shotguns would change the shotgun into a very different kind of weapon, as the spread would be taken away in favour of a solid body to contain the explosives on their way to the target.
In game terms, this kind of thing would be very much like a suggestion I once had for Assault Shotguns and Solid Slugs.
http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php?topic=601.0
Notice that this isn't a suggestion for a new kind of ammo, but for a weapon that uses normal shells in a different way, based on SG behaviour in the original Doom.

punching the cyberdemon to death is pure suicide. even if u had all the bonuses, and lots of meds, and lots of armor... ull never get close enough. his rockets knock u back a space always, 2 usually, i think ive even seen 3 spaces of knockback at point-blank! the closer u get, the more likely he will hit, and the farther back you will get pushed! pure suicide. even if u used the chainsaw!

Hellrunner(3)+coward causes all, or very nearly all, of Cybie's rockets to miss, Brute(3) has a damage bonus of 9/12 (depending on the source), compared with Cybie's 4 armor, and Berserker(3) causes an average of 1 in ~8 hits to turn you into a real killing machine, though if it's an AoB game, that's an almost assured state anyway. All this takes is clvl9, and this trait list is good for melee as it is, making it more than just a "if you somehow survive that far" situation.

oh... i had a revelation on the whole special ammunition idea! if Doom 2 had the shotgun, and then the super shotgun, which are basically the same thing, except double the damage and reload time, then why not alternate ammo?

Because the difference between a SG and a DblSG is the difference between 3 and 5, while alternate ammo is a cross between 3 and 5 and the list of ammo types, making for at least 4 different possibilities, which will also add at least one more key/key property to the game, and the number will certainly grow as more ammo types follow - which is way too many options for the simple, straight forward, find-a-bigger-gun kind of game that DoomRL is. But now I can also say: take this idea to AliensRL. That's also what I intend on doing with the slugs mentioned earlier. It's a much more tactical game (or at least will be), and multiple possibilities will probably be much better appreciated.

[RepoRipper]

good idea, for aliensRL.

the explosive shells fire just like a normal shotgun shell, they spread out. but each piece, when introduced to a breathable atmosphere, is catalyzed, which makes it impact-sensitive. the spread hits, BOOM, explosion.

okay, got it, punching the cyber isnt suicide.

[TFoN]

the explosive shells fire just like a normal shotgun shell, they spread out. but each piece, when introduced to a breathable atmosphere, is catalyzed, which makes it impact-sensitive. the spread hits, BOOM, explosion.

Are you telling me that the slightest crack in the insulation of a single pellet makes a bundle of ammo the equivalent of carrying nitroglycerin by the kilo?! I hardly find that worth the while...
If anything, I'd make the explosives sensitive to acceleration, but I'm really not "in the know" on these matters, and have no real idea if this is possible.

[RepoRipper]

ummm no if there was a crack it would go off in the factory! duhhhhh....
the peices are made up of a chemical that, when introduced to oxygen/ normal atmosphere, rapidly reacts to become highly shock sensitive. it cant go off on its own, the only way the cartridge can be broken is from the inside, via the firing charge, which has to be struck by the trigger. if the cartridge is misformed, then it will go off in a test chamber, in the factory. also the firing charge isnt thermal, so if one goes off, it wont matter. (other than sending the rest of the shells flying a few feet)

[TFoN]

I'm not talking about manufacture imperfections, I'm talking about damage caused by field activity (although it could certainly be a blend of the two, where an imperfect case is breached by relatively light field activity, preventing early detection of the flaw by a system ment to not detonate every single pellet just to make sure that "it would have made it later" or damage it to the point that "it could have, but can't now that we've checked").

also the firing charge isnt thermal, so if one goes off, it wont matter. (other than sending the rest of the shells flying a few feet)

If this is the same explosive which should be able to breach its own casing - then won't it cause just the kind of insulation damage I'm talking about? In that case, sending them flying a few feet's exactly the problem, as any such flight ends with concussion - and that's after the serious concussion which sent them flying in the first place, after breaching the casing and exposing it to the atmosphere. Moreover, any blast capable of sending a soldier's ammo flying's already a serious risk to the soldier, even if it doesn't cause the rest of his ammo to go off.

the only way the cartridge can be broken is from the inside, via the firing charge, which has to be struck by the trigger

First, it has to either be struck by the trigger *or by something of [mostly] equal force*, like the force created by that cracked single pellet.
Second, how do you intend to design the cartridge so that it can *only* be borken from the inside, and not by other exploding materials (as the potentially fired type) or by some sort of external hazard, like an aimed (or stray) bullet...?

[Psion]

I'd just stick with those armor piercing frangible rounds they invented recently (I forget what their actual name is).  The way the bullets are designed they get somehow pierce through armor like your typical AP bullets but burst inside the target doing more damage.

[RepoRipper]

i give up

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Please consider interface easiness when thinking about special ammo. This is the major reason that I gave up on that idea. But ph33r not, Weapon Mods in 0.9.8.7 will make up for that lack ;].

[TFoN]

ReppoRipper, I don't mean to be hardheaded and go against your idea just for the sake of disagreement. I hope you understand that.

Kornel - what about ammo types AliensRL? Simple UI's still a consideration, but as a more serious and "realistic" (as much as that description fits) tactical game, some complication isn't much of a tradeoff. I'd figure it's part of the deal. Many of the ideas here'll fit into there much better than they can into DoomRL.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Actually in AliensRL it might be more possible, because of the ammo handling. I'll think about it.