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[insightguy]

Just gonna leave this here

It seems awfully reminiscent of a smear campaign, to be totally honest.

The entire narrative against gamergate is basically one huge smear campaign, that's what I've noticed so far.

DISCLAIMER: I'm mostly neutral but leaning in with gamergate

[Trar]

Just gonna leave this here
The entire narrative against gamergate is basically one huge smear campaign, that's what I've noticed so far.

That blog is a hilariously, stupidly small fraction of the abuse that GG targets go through. Hell, a good portion of it's just reasonable people reacting to GG abusing its victims. If you consider disgust and disdain for what is basically a hate group a 'smear campaign', I don't know what to say to you.

Trar, instead of posting links to articles that link to evidence, can you just post links to the evidence directly?

A screen-cap of TB being a misogynist would work far better than a URL to an article that describes TB as a misogynist and contains links to forum threads that contain links to more articles etc etc...

Your mistake here isn't the side of the battle you're on, it's trying to sway people's opinions by linking them to people trying to sway their opinions, instead of posting the evidence directly.

It's reasonable enough you want clear evidence. But I thought the articles I've linked already contained some tweets, or links to tweets. It's not like his Twitter output is the only thing being brought up or the only thing that matters either; you can check this article out for other criticism of TB which pretty much sums up why I want him out of DoomRL. It's not like this stuff is hard to look up individually either.

I hope for your sake you're not simply demanding finer and finer proof to try and discredit or wear me out somehow.

do glorious generalizations (I mean god damn, all you need is to throw "nazis" in there and it'll be a complete Best of the Baddest collection) make for good facts?

You might have missed it, but I did link a detailed and admittedly stomach-churning article on page 1 about how 8chan, one of GG's 'home bases', also unrepentantly hosts child pornography on open discussion boards. I guess I can see why you might not have read it.

There's also some pretty conclusive proof that the /baphomet/ board (which is also on 8chan if you didn't know) is engaged in threatening and SWATting people- not to mention the admin fleeing to China after he was caught selling stolen Social Security numbers. You can start reading about it here and here.

By no means are these the only two articles about this. I'll also say that second link contains tweets. As in posts from Twitter. On a website dedicated to stringing together tweets to help form articles about those tweets.

Fortunately for you, I'm not outright dismissing you because you mentioned Nazism. I'm dismissing you because you're wrong.

Honestly, why is this even an issue in the first place?Is it because you're actually one of the poor sods that are the 'foot soldiers' of the other front?
Why must we remove the name of The Big Bad that doesn't like your views?

Being against abusive behavior and abusive people makes me a 'foot soldier'? You're assuming a hate group and its victims are somehow equivalent 'sides', which is obviously not true to anyone who isn't sympathetic to that hate group or below 6 years old. You might want to watch out if you don't want people thinking you're either of those.

Why must we care about your fight - and join it - when we are just some neutral corner of the internet?

Maybe you should start reading?

[Trar]

Honestly, I think I can sum it up like this:

https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy/status/554849320562749440

If you continue to be neutral of or in support of gamergate KNOW you're silently approving of attempted murder by cop

It's pretty obvious TotalBiscuit supports GamerGate. Do you see now?

[insightguy]

If I may ask specifically, gamergate is a hate group against WHAT exactly? because the only thing I see them hating on is dishonest people. and if you classify them as a hate group for than,  then by all means  its a fucking hate group to you.

It's pretty obvious TotalBiscuit supports GamerGate. Do you see now?

Well no shit, he was open about that and DISCLOSED that. 

The only reason Simon from yogscast wrote that article (the one you linked to) was because TB criticized him for non-disclosure of paid promotions and instead of acting like a grown up and taking the criticism, wined on about it.

Spoiler: His defence (click to show/hide)

And shit, you do know that the guy had CANCER (recovering at the moment thank God) when they started the smear campaign against him.

And goddammit, 8chan TRIES TO TAKES DOWN ANY ILLEGAL ACTIVITY THAT HAPPENS THERE, but if you think you can do a better job, by all means, admin there.

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To blame 8chan and ALL the people there for any illegal stuff is like saying that all Germans even until today are nazis

[Sylph]

It's reasonable enough you want clear evidence. But I thought the articles I've linked already contained some tweets, or links to tweets. It's not like his Twitter output is the only thing being brought up or the only thing that matters either; you can check this article out for other criticism of TB which pretty much sums up why I want him out of DoomRL. It's not like this stuff is hard to look up individually either.

It might well not be, but I'm having trouble, and when you are trying to convince someone, you don't do it by telling them to go and google the topic and please change their mind - if you want to change people's minds, the burden to provide the re-education, particularly displaying your evidence, is on you. You won't win any court cases by saying 'your honour, please google the subject, check his facebook, and look at his mobile phone. You'll probably change your mind. The prosecution rests'.

I hope for your sake you're not simply demanding finer and finer proof to try and discredit or wear me out somehow.

You might have missed it, but I did link a detailed and admittedly stomach-churning article on page 1

Actually, if you think I'm trying to discredit you by demanding finer proof, you couldn't be further from the truth. In fact you might be shocked to learn I'm actually a female gamer that intentionally tends to resist broadcasting the fact specifically because of harassment I've repeatedly suffered some from misogynistic swathes of the gaming community. I'm trying to get you to adjust your argumentative style specifically because you yourself are making the anti-GG argument look flaky and weak; I think you're misrepresenting it.

My point was that you're not linking evidence. You're linking articles. Your reply was to link another article, then add a clause mentioning that I might have missed you linking an article on page 1! I think you don't get it, I'm trying to encourage you to link evidence instead of empty articles. Replying by linking more articles isn't going to help.

It's not hard, you do it like this:
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sihieb
And voila, people can have a discussion about whether or not there's such a thing as privilege. (A conversation, I might add, that really tends to separate teenagers from adults in their understanding of their standing in the world, and as such a conversation I feel is a lot more about world experience than it is about reason and logic, hence why so many reasonably high-IQ kids struggle with it so much).

Trouble is, that URL I linked isn't really evidence of TB being a chauvinist/misogynist/racist/sexist, is it? It's all grey-area. It's circumstantial. It demonstrates that TB leans to the line of thinking that usually reveals sexist or at least sexually misguided views, without being overt proof that his opinions are such... That's my trouble, all these articles you keep posting are just opinion pieces, and when they do try to link to 'evidence', the evidence is incredibly flaky. Posting links to long opinion pieces to encourage your audience to dig through for dregs of flaky, insubstantial evidence makes the anti-GG argument look weaker, not stronger, and that's why I'm trying to help you sort out your discussion style.

Just gonna leave this here
The entire narrative against gamergate is basically one huge smear campaign, that's what I've noticed so far.

DISCLAIMER: I'm mostly neutral but leaning in with gamergate

I'd find another name for what you stand behind if I were you. Your intentions are probably pretty clean, but GG as a movement carries so much negative baggage, declaring something like this is jumping into a den with a lot of people you probably don't want to affiliate with.

[Tavana]

[Sereg]

I'm on the same page, Tavana. Holy fuck, this is still going on? The gamergate nonsense that lead to this is still going on? Wasn't that, like, a year ago? Shouldn't that be dead by now? It was never even remotely relevant to anything back when it was breaking news, much less now. Both sides are just talking to hear themselves talk - they have nothing of any import or worth to say to anyone but themselves.

Can't we all just play some DoomRL?

[thelaptop]

Can't we all just play some DoomRL?

Hmm... Lemme amplify that for you.

Can't we all just play some DoomRL?

[Trar]

If I may ask specifically, gamergate is a hate group against WHAT exactly?

Women? It's not hard to see that.

The only reason Simon from yogscast wrote that article (the one you linked to)

Simon from Yogscast? You sure that was who wrote it? I also like how the article talks about TB using his large audience to dismiss criticism, and then he does exactly that very early in the image you posted, followed up by more of the egoism the article also talks about.

And goddammit, 8chan TRIES TO TAKES DOWN ANY ILLEGAL ACTIVITY THAT HAPPENS THERE

I don't know where you got this either. Those raiding/doxing/liferuining threads seem pretty sketchy, to say the least. That 8chan child porn link was titled 'The Mods Are Always Asleep' for a reason. No, I will not directly link to 8chan discussion of sexualized young children.

EDIT:
To blame 8chan and ALL the people there for any illegal stuff is like saying that all Germans even until today are nazis

8channers continue to put up with it, and they weren't duped or scared into submission by a fascist regime to do it.


@Sylph: I respect that you're trying to talk to me in good faith here, so I'll try and return the favor.

I can also respect your desire to strengthen my argument. But here's the thing: I still consider wanting direct links to tweets and such to be shifting the goalposts, since I tried to link articles that provided context. I'd prefer not to spend hours trawling TB's twitter for problematic stuff, either, not when people have already done it for me.

You're talking about my arguments against GG being weak, when I consider evidence against them to be very strong and even somewhat self-evident - I don't think we should talk about it in a vacuum because this isn't a courtroom.

On that note, I remember you said that TB was a good voice from the 'pro GG side'. There isn't any sort of equity between 'pro' and 'anti' GG. There isn't any reason to be pro GG when they're explicitly out to get you in particular because they are literally just an extension of gamer misogyny. I hope they don't ever get you. So I don't think there's any question about them.

If TotalBiscuit supports GamerGate, that should be worth pause, right? And if he supports GG, it wouldn't be a stretch for him to be sexist without being very extreme, would it?

I didn't even intend to go on about this in the first place, and now I regret getting as sidetracked as much as I did by people who apparently didn't like that. Referencing TB is an issue, whether the devs realize it or not, and it's something they need to think about. I started this thread with the purpose of bringing it to their attention. I was unfortunately drawn into the discussion about the semantics of the validity of these things, which is the devs' decision to decide.

Both sides are just talking to hear themselves talk - they have nothing of any import or worth to say to anyone but themselves.

If nobody's going to listen to what I have to say, then I'll stop talking. I've made my point. I'll continue to enjoy DoomRL regardless of the outcome the devs decide on - it's too good not to - but it is still a concern that I really think they should consider. I hope you all have a good rest of the day.