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Author Topic: Balancing Assemblies  (Read 8513 times)

Thomas

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Re: Balancing Assemblies
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2016, 09:47 »

Well, there are multiple reasons that they chose to use high-variance damage (I would hope), I just felt like there was a connection there. Because damage doesn't add up in the long term (usually), at least some individual fights have to be dangerous on their own. And to make some fights dangerous without making them all dangerous, they made most attacks deal 2d20 on a 50% hit instead of 8d3 with perfect accuracy.

Don't get me wrong, I actually dislike the swinginess of Crawl's damage and I wish enemy damage was easier to anticipate, but it works just fine. I wouldn't *want* DoomRL to go this route without a good reason, I'm just trying to say it's definitely possible to have a system where you're not always able to avoid damage even with ideal positioning. Would said system be more fun and interesting IN DoomRL? I don't know! But whatever becomes of DoomRL and/or JH I'd be glad to test it out.

Ah, the reason I replied earlier is because I don't agree with this. I love DoomRL much more than any other roguelike and it's because it's basically unique among its classic roguelike peers in being about positional tactics.* Removing cornershooting from DoomRL without replacing it with something else, or not including positional tactics in JH wouldn't make things fun and interesting and I wouldn't be glad to test it out.

*also it's not four times too long
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Balancing Assemblies
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2016, 12:22 »

I fully agree about the positional tactics you mention and its value, but currently, cornershooting is just WAY too easy.
An example of nerf would be the "Hell froze over" levels.  I played a game a few days ago, where I sacrificed an assault shotty into plasmatic, hence ruining my covers (and finally dying to a lack of medkits / armors since every other shell removed my cover, giving barons, spiders and other friends dozens of opportunity to show their superiority).
I did it for the challenge, but hell... I wasn't disappointed !
The problem is that currently, the game is not ready for a removal of this mechanism.  Remembers me when I didn't know about cornershooting... every run we tried ended-up at the wall... (Dlvl 7 IIRC, as of 0.9.9.6).  And we were playing HNTR !

One thing I could imagine, if covers get removed, would be the idea of implementing lost-soul-like projectiles, which take time to reach the player, and can be dodged. (also, monster's attack should be preceded by an animation so that the player can stand-up in the open without too much risks of getting shred in 2 turns).
I really love the way lost sould work since 0.9.9.7, they force the player to choose between taking some damages or get forced to move, which is something you often would prefer to avoid.  I think the games needs more mechanins forcing the player to choose between plague and cholera, it's something always fun to deal with :)

Other cool constraints include time-limited levels (I *hate* nukes !!!), which both prevent you from perma-waiting, and also encourage you to go for non-100% (I don't see why I would play less than 100% when it has no cost, but gives more xp and stuff).
I Guess this means it should have drawbacks : your precious time, ammo...  also, not giving XP for monsters, and/or creating different kind of areas, not always worth visiting, would make the player more goal-oriented (currently, even a single imp is a goal in itself, since it gives XP.).


Oh, and btw, having to choose between moving and shooting doesn't help promoting "dodging" strategies.  The contradiction is quite obvious : as soon as you encounter an enemy, you can :
A) try to dodge, leaving the baddy unharmed, and still getting some little chance to get hit
B) attack, negating all of your dodge, and making your traits useless, but... at least, after some shots, you'll have shot the bad guy.
You can't rely on your dodge if you need to stop and stand still everytime there's an enemy.  I know I simplified the problem (dodging mancubi, or dodging between bareels can be more effective than what my A) pretends), but the issue remains : choosing A) will most of the time lead you nowhere, and you'll have to choose B) soon or later, making the dodging just an uneeded way of taking some extra damages.

Also, I think monster's chance to miss is currently too high without skills, and skills don't help the way they would need to.  You don't need HR to just start "running" and shotgun-to-death an enemy with your 100% accuracy while your "running" tactic makes him miss 2/3 of his attacks, despite the fact you're not actually moving.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 14:15 by Evilpotatoe »
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Thomas

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Re: Balancing Assemblies
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2016, 23:51 »

(A story about how important cornershooting is to victory)
The problem is that currently, the game is not ready for a removal of this mechanism.  Remembers me when I didn't know about cornershooting... every run we tried ended-up at the wall... (Dlvl 7 IIRC, as of 0.9.9.6).  And we were playing HNTR !

Yep. I think everyone knows that if cornershooting were removed it would need to be replaced by something else immediately. But it's (probably) not happening for DoomRL, and if it did happen for JH then I would want this 'something else' to also promote positional tactics.

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Oh, and btw, having to choose between moving and shooting doesn't help promoting "dodging" strategies.  The contradiction is quite obvious : as soon as you encounter an enemy, you can :
A) try to dodge, leaving the baddy unharmed, and still getting some little chance to get hit
B) attack, negating all of your dodge, and making your traits useless, but... at least, after some shots, you'll have shot the bad guy.
You can't rely on your dodge if you need to stop and stand still everytime there's an enemy.  I know I simplified the problem (dodging mancubi, or dodging between bareels can be more effective than what my A) pretends), but the issue remains : choosing A) will most of the time lead you nowhere, and you'll have to choose B) soon or later, making the dodging just an uneeded way of taking some extra damages.

This isn't entirely correct. Obviously dodging around doesn't kill enemies unless, like you said, it's causing friendly fire between them. What the dodging system promotes is repositioning. You find a good spot to shoot the enemies from, you figure out a path towards it made out of sidestep moves and then you dodge your way there. It's what lets you start shooting in the first place.

Dodging can also get you closer to killing an enemy in more direct ways if you're playing Shottyman, naturally. Reloading is just as important as shooting for dealing damage.
And Shottyhead makes fighting in the open actually quite powerful, although it's only sometimes because of dodging (other times it's because of repeated knockback at the edge of your vision circle - cornershooting without the corner)

I'm probably just saying things you already knew. But anyway, comparing "moving" to "shooting" is only part of the picture when you're thinking about how useful sidestep dodging is.

Quote
Also, I think monster's chance to miss is currently too high without skills, and skills don't help the way they would need to.  You don't need HR to just start "running" and shotgun-to-death an enemy with your 100% accuracy while your "running" tactic makes him miss 2/3 of his attacks, despite the fact you're not actually moving.

I never feel like I dodge more when I get hellrunner. I'd only be slightly surprised if someone went in to the code and found "oh, whoops! That part hasn't been working for years!" I still get it a lot for the movespeed, though.

But what you said is interesting. Running mode is very powerful and I'm not sure how it should be changed.

Quote
One thing I could imagine, if covers get removed, would be the idea of implementing lost-soul-like projectiles, which take time to reach the player, and can be dodged. (also, monster's attack should be preceded by an animation so that the player can stand-up in the open without too much risks of getting shred in 2 turns).
I really love the way lost sould work since 0.9.9.7, they force the player to choose between taking some damages or get forced to move, which is something you often would prefer to avoid.  I think the games needs more mechanins forcing the player to choose between plague and cholera, it's something always fun to deal with :)

Actually, since you mentioned this, I've been working on my own game and I'm trying to make it so you can avoid most of the damage with positioning, but without cornershooting (or any kind of cover). I only came up with three kinds of ranged attacks, and you just mentioned two of them: 'Lost soul'-style projectiles, attacks that happen after a warning, and attacks that can only be fired at certain angles.

I'm interested to see what kind of enemy attacks and/or cover systems show up in JH.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 00:02 by Thomas »
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Tormuse

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Re: Balancing Assemblies
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2016, 00:33 »

Hey Thomas, thanks for your input!  It's nice to hear from someone who has a contrasting playstyle.  :)

  • Reloads all 5 shells on shottyman movement

The Tac shotgun doesn't do that any more; it only loads one shell per movement in this version.  (It really has been a while since you played!)  ;)  Is that enough of a nerf for you?  I don't think a damage nerf would be a good idea; no one would ever use it again.  Personally, I think it's fine the way it is.

Nanofiber armor
I already have infinite armor. I'm leaving entire suits of armor on the ground because I can't fit any more in my inventory.
Infinite durability is actually a pretty small upside (on regular armor. on really good armor with movespeed bonuses, holy moly that's not true)
How to fix it: Remove all protection penalties. The only downside should be "you used two mods to make an armor with no +protection or +movespeed"

While it's true that there's plenty of armour around, sometimes, it's helpful to have an unbreakable armour to fall back on so you don't have to switch between damaged armours; having to switch armour during combat can be deadly.  (Potentially saves you an inventory slot too)  I don't always get it, but there are definitely situations where it's useful.  I wouldn't recommend removing the protection penalties, because then it becomes the same as an Onyx mod and then the Onyx mod isn't special any more.  Right now, it's sort of a "poor man's Onyx assembly," for games where you don't get an Onyx mod and I think it works well as it is.

Btw, feel free to record a gundancing demo if you enjoy it, I'll be your first viewer ^^

I had a really good recording going today, trying to do a Gunrunner build in Archangel of Red Alert, (figured I should try to get a badge while I was at it)  :)  but alas, I died just before getting Gunrunner due to a careless error where I shot a sergeant at point-blank range with my rocket launcher because I didn't realize I forgot to switch to my shotgun.  (Oops!)  :P  It really sucked because the game was going pretty well up to that point.  :(  (Halfway through Deimos!)  I don't know if you care to see that recording, but in any case, I'll have to try again another day; I have a busy weekend ahead of me and I'm not sure when I'll have free time to make another attempt.
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Thomas

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Re: Balancing Assemblies
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2016, 01:23 »

The Tac shotgun doesn't do that any more; it only loads one shell per movement in this version.  (It really has been a while since you played!)  ;)  Is that enough of a nerf for you?  I don't think a damage nerf would be a good idea; no one would ever use it again.  Personally, I think it's fine the way it is.

whoops
When I said "a while" I only meant half a year! I guess I just forgot about that bit.

I still think it's too good, though. It's my most-made assembly (barely beats tac boots, 5x more than tac armor and micro launcher) and every time I assemble it, it's my primary weapon for the entire game, outside of special levels in Hell.

EDIT: this used to say "I might use the tactical shotgun a lot because the other shotguns are bad" but I thought about it and that's not entirely it.
My companions to the tactical shotgun are generally the double shotgun and anything that makes big explosions. But the tactical shotgun is the most ammo-efficient of them all and works at any range, from point blank to edge of LOS.

It means that there's rarely thoughts of "My tactical shotgun won't work here, I need to swap", only things like "Here I am at The Wall/The City of Skulls, where I understand that I'll always be at the appropriate range for my Rocket Launcher/Double Shotgun." and "It's level 23 and I have finally ran out of shells, let's missile launcher our way through the rest of the game"

Quote
While it's true that there's plenty of armour around, sometimes, it's helpful to have an unbreakable armour to fall back on so you don't have to switch between damaged armours; having to switch armour during combat can be deadly.  (Potentially saves you an inventory slot too)  I don't always get it, but there are definitely situations where it's useful.  I wouldn't recommend removing the protection penalties, because then it becomes the same as an Onyx mod and then the Onyx mod isn't special any more. Right now, it's sort of a "poor man's Onyx assembly," for games where you don't get an Onyx mod and I think it works well as it is.

I did forget that Onyx even existed - so if BP and O just gave the same effect then that would be no good. I'm not sure how I would buff it now.

I don't really feel pressured by armor durability most of the time. Unmodded armor only becomes worse than nanofiber armor at 25% durability, and armor shards or new armor is plentiful enough that I rarely see my armor degrade to < 25%. (unless it's A-modded, then I'll gladly wear it all the way down to 0 unless I'm saving it to make tac armor)

And when my unmodded blue/red armor falls below 50% (or becomes nanofibered through some cruel twist of fate) I sometimes just take it off anyway! Do I want to trade 20% of my movespeed for 2 armor? Or 10% for 1? Well, yeah, usually but not always. But when I'm thinking of my armor as a slight upgrade to "literally being naked", there's probably something better just around the corner, like that 80% durability green that just dropped off my latest kill.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 01:57 by Thomas »
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Balancing Assemblies
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2016, 07:04 »

Dodging is not fully useless, of course, it lets you reposition or flee to the stairs, among other things. (I go for 100%, but not everyone does !  And think of AoPc, btw :)
But I don't think it works as intended initially.
Shottyman or gun-kata were probably designed to be used with a more "doomish" playstyle, running fast though monsters, shooting everything as you go (gunrunner-style), while dodging attacks.
With unpredictable attacks and the need to stop for shooting, it can't work :)
about the dodging mechanics :
Someone correct me if necessary, but the "dodging" HR improves is when you actually move, making monsters shoot at your previous position.  "dodge" from running is a malus to enemy's to-hit, which works whether you move or not.
in other words, HR works when you move (eh... normal, right ?), while running protects you even if you stand shooting.  Btw, another exploit is that running also decreases your to-hit... which doesn't affect your shotgun at all :D


Forgot about the 6d3 shotty xD.  Looks like a "funny" idea to me.  See my comment about nano-shrapnel for more details :p
My preferred shotty remains the standard (ideally T2P3).  You should try it, an elephant gun without the unusable reload time is sweet ! (btw, the lack of magazine is rarely an issue, since you always get enough knockback when cornershooting, and I usually have 2 or 3 unused shell boxes for the (really exceptionnal) situations where I would need fast reload.)

@armors : are you aware that nanofiber doesn't cripple movespeed anymore ? It still sucks imo, but I think infinite durabilité must have some cost.  I would only remove the resistance nerf, but would keep the "armor value" nerf.
The reason why you are not pressured about armor durability is always the same : it's because you don't get hit enough :)
I wouldn't buff onyx as it is. Its the game's 2nd useful rare mod :p  I'd rather nerf nano, and improve firestorm so that it gets some use other than Biggest fucking guns (which are sort of vapor-weapon-ware : fantastic, but will never happen :)

@Tormuse:
Ha, I'm not the only one failing at switching weapons xD.
Too bad :(  While the fact that you had nearly got your mastery is a demonstration in itself, dying just before makes the "gunrunner demo" quite... pointless, I'd say.  I share your pain, it's what one really calls YASD !
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Shoop da Whoop

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Re: Balancing Assemblies
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2016, 18:46 »

Okay, this one is not about any particular assemblies (top 10 and bottom 10 and all that), this is about assemblies in general. Or, to call it, "Inherent Problems With Assemblies".

Well, let's just do the math. For simplicity's sake, let it be just about weapons.
Let's assume we're combining just standart mods: PABT. Using a concept known as "combinations with repetitions", we get the following number of potential assembly recipes, without listing:
2 mods - 5!/(2!*3!) = 10;
3 mods - 6!/(3!*3!) = 20;
4 mods - 7!/(4!*3!) = 35.

And if we add back F, N and S mods, we get the following:
2 mods - 8!/(2!*6!) = 28;
3 mods - 9!/(3!*6!) = 84 (!);
4 mods - 10!/(4!*6!) = 210 (!!).

How many recipes do we actually have, again? I'm not even filtering them by type, let's compare. Basic: 19 of 28 possibilities (good); advanced: 14 of 84 possibilities (1/6th of them all); master: 7 for 210 possibilities (1/30th of them all).

That's pretty painful and risky for an average player: to sacrifice two levels for Whizkid 2 (and two more if he's not Technician), and then gamble if he's assumingly fair and doesn't know the schematics - which can, you see, possibly appear in Armory/Deimos Lab. Oh, they didn't appear? Tough luck, try again.

Incorrect solution: adding 150 more schematics. Been there, seen that (hello to Diablo 2 mods).

But wait, we haven't even started! How hard is to aquire a master assembly?
Let's, again, assume, that average player finds 4 to 6 mods during the game. Numbers are obviously arbitrary, that's not the point here. Also, let's revert to the "base" PABT four.
Let's assume that player wants to make a Tartar Tommygun, which requires each of PABT. Possibility of a mod spawning is 1/4, so for n mods we get 4n outcomes. Will the player find necessary mods? It depends. This is the place where you have to trust me without in-depth explanation, but it will be like this:
4 mods found - 4!/44 = 3/32 probability to create;
5 mods found - (4*5!/2!)/45 = 15/64 > 6/64 = 3/32;
6 mods found - (4*6!/3! + 6*6!/(2!*2!))/46 = 195/512 > 120/512 = 15/64, etc.

Let's assume now that player wants to make Hellish Heatray, which requires PPPP. In the same conditions, we get:
4 mods found - 1/44 = 1/256 probability to create;
5 mods found - (1 + 3*5!/4!)/45 = 15/256;
6 mods found - (1 + 3*6!/5! + 4*6!/(4!*2!) + 6*6!/4!)/46 = 259/4096 > 240/4096 = 15/256, etc (note: 259/4096 ≈ 6.3%).

Those were extreme cases (the most and the least available combos), and the former is 24 to about 6 times more easier to assemble than the latter, and such unequality persists even one collects a dozen or more mods. Seriously, on what occasion would one make a Hellish Heatray instead of, like, an elephant gun and some enhanced armor, for example?

Incorrect solution: make mods spawn more often. Then you get 5 bulk mods in a row and still no Hellish Heatray.


So, what to do? Even though I'm not a roguelike programmer, I can pretend that I am and thus set the following "goals" for assemblies-as-they-should-be:
  • no list bloating;
  • basic -> advanced -> master ladder should be shallower and more accessible (easier to discover);
  • slap everything on your gun!

There wouldn't be any sense going into such lengths without proposing some solution, so here it is: mod padding.
For example, biggest fucking gun which is BBFF becomes FF~~, where ~ is absolutely any mod. Nano-shrapnel becomes NP~. Of course, you lose their properties after the assembly - but isn't that's how it works for all mods in the end anyway? There, of course, may be situations where a set of mods suffices several schematics at once (like, WYXZ fits both WX~~ and YZ~~), but since we already have prompts, so theoretically they can appear one after another in some order.

In conclusion, with "mod padding":
  • there are just about 20 assemblies on each level (not like we have that much yet, but anyway);
  • easier to stumble upon and less dependant on random, while still requiring two essential mods;
  • way less "stray" mods in inventory / left on the floor.

Now about "what to do with nano-, onyx- and sniper- and firestorm packs". Well, for example, we can treat them as double ("two-slot") mods, so instead of NFPPT plasma you get "just" NFP. Then abovementioned examples become, respectively, "FF" and "NP", while staying on the same level; within 2-3-4 progression some "basic" things will have to move up though.

If going for "complete overhaul", one can give a normal player 2 slots on a weapon, 4 to a Whizkid 1 and 6 to a Whizkid 2 (2-3-4 for armors, or leaving onyx "1 slot" for that purpose? No clues here). ...6 is still twice as less as 12, isn't it?


This has been a long rant, so hopefully it will be of some use.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 19:30 by Shoop da Whoop »
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raekuul

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Re: Balancing Assemblies
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2016, 07:37 »

I respect your ideas and like some of them, but part of the problem is that the assemblies themsevles tend toward being "not worth using in place of the non-assembled mod combo."

Let's take the Biggest Fucking Gun as an example, starting from a basic BFG9000 (information taken from the chaosforge wiki, which may be out of date)

A BFG9000 holds 100 power cells, and uses 40 cells per shot. Bulk mods increase clip size by 30%.
(100 * 1.3) * 1.3 = 169 Cells - 4 shots without having to reload.

A BFG9000 has a blast radius of 8. Firestorm mods increase blast radius by 2. In addition, BFG9000 Blasts are chained blasts - entities other than the player caught in the blast create an explosion of their own (though I don't know if Firestorm applies to these chained blasts as well).

With 1 firestorm mod, that initial blast has a radius of 10.

We can't add the 2nd firestorm mod without being prompted for the Biggest Fucking Gun. According to the wiki, chamber size and damage are based on the original gun. Assuming that's off of the BBF BFG9000 and not the unmodded one, then BFG9000 -> Biggest Fucking Gun should hold 422 power cells, use 100 power cells per shot, have blast radius 16 and a damage roll of 20d12.

Unassembled: 4 shots between reloads, blast radius 12. Damage roll is 10d6
Theoretical Assembled: 4 shots between reloads, blast radius 16. Damage roll is 20d12

That theoretical assembly is drool-worthy, but there are a few issues with it.

1) Who the hell has 400 power cells at once?
2) On MAc games, Firestorm is more helpful on plasma rifles because of +2 shots from the mod plus +2 from the two required TH levels.

On non-MAc games, the Biggest Fucking Gun would probably be useful as a power cell storage unit, but I don't see burning 100 power cells at once to be useful at all.

And of course, if the actual doesn't hold 422 power cells, there's really no point in firing it because you're trading chamber size for damage. (Still useful as a power cell chest though)

E: And of course, certain builds can't make advanced/master assemblies - Gunrunner (Scout general) explicitly blocks it, and Army of the Dead (Marine shotgun) blocks the prerequisite. (Entrenchment blocks Finesse but Technicians get Whizkid regardless)
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 08:08 by raekuul »
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Balancing Assemblies
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2016, 14:43 »

While your first sentence kinda sums up what I think about assemblies, you could (very easily) have picked a better example :)

Don't understimate the Biggest fucking gun, it's awesome !  Impossible to craft, of course, but still Awesome.

The numbers are pretty good : 2*dices and 2*sides, which means approximately 4* damages, at the exceptionnal rate of only 2.5*cost (call now and save 37.5% !).  Also, it doesn't cripple the weapon's magazine.  It devours a ridiculous quantity of ammo, but a regular BFG still keeps his 2.5 shots ammo supply, which makes it usable (...once crafted).
A nuclear BFG, with an average dmg of 28 skyrockets to 104 once modded. 104 !
A regular BFG is probably even more fun, with 130 average AND 2.5 shots in its battery.

Note that since it also doubles the radius, you can clear a third of the level with one shot, and reasonably assume you'll have enough time for your nuclear (or N modded) gun to recharge before you see a baddy again.
If you choose a non-nuclear BFG and mod it with something else (Which I guess would be B, unless you *really* prefer to add yet another F), you'll need to find some ammo after a shot, that's true.... but on the other hand, it's not supposed to be your main weapon !  It has to be kept for exceptionnal / desesparate situations, in which it works like a charm.

Trust me, one-shoting shamblers can produce a hell of fun (and make fun of hell).  I agree that this thing is quite unnecessary in reaching the goal of completing the game, but honestly, while I always keep one when I can, I merely never use BFG, modded or not, since they already consume too much ammo (and destroy stuff (and covers (and bareels...))).

It works incredibly well as a side weapon to clear huge annoying groups and spiders quickly.
Give it a try ! See attached savefile for afree trial : Biggest funning gun(and register before 15th april to get a free pair of antigrav A-modded phasehift boots, and a stainless steel Butcher's cleaver !)
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 15:20 by Evilpotatoe »
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raekuul

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Re: Balancing Assemblies
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2016, 07:53 »

Admittedly this is true, and destroying everything is fun at times. I just don't like using 100 ammo in one shot where 80 across two would do adequately well.
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Sambojin

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Re: Balancing Assemblies
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2016, 23:47 »

Long time, no post.....

Hmmm. I can understand people's thoughts on the value of certain weapons, but much of it comes down to liked play-styles and builds. Most certainly character builds.

Almost every weapon is useful with the right build. Shottyman reloads rocket launchers. Running up to WK(2) still gives the massively powerful option of Juggler along the way. And then there's all the master traits skewing things further on "is this any good?"

There's some assemblies that are too good in comparison to anything else available on a regular basis. Tac Boots, Tactical Shotties, Speed Loaders for pistol runs.

But it's all so very contextual. How good is an O or N mod? Absolutely friggin fantastic on any armour or weapon. You've just saved yourself inventory slots and build space, all with one random, very lucky find.

So that's why I find N and O based assemblies "not that great". They were already awesome as 1-mod weapons or armour. The WK(2) requirements for bigger assemblies is a hassle, but it has it's advantages (Juggler). Even having the option to whip out a DB or shotty or RL at a moment's notice is fantastic, and the big assemblies pale in comparison. So they're not really worthwhile building towards, especially O and N based ones, because the build does a lot with only a smattering of mods applied to non-assembly weapons.

I'd personally deal with it by increasing the number of assemblies (basic and advanced, but not O or N based ones), and let the player work it out. It'll be impossible to balance all weapons and armours due to the variation in character builds and play-styles, so just slightly nerf the "really good ones", and add to an abundance of options.

Maybe make the wall not have a ML in it either. I know, it's heresy, but that's what makes other RLs seem weak (and there's not enough types to build). Give a chainsword, rather than a chainsaw, in the CC too.

Maybe even make a mod that's a "You can mod this weapon more now" mod, about as rare as O/N/F mods, so bigger assemblies aren't always about character build. And the character builds are more key to balance and usefulness than any particular weapon/mod/assembly. Because they can and will happen in every game, entirely controlled by the player. A few masters aren't great, but maybe that just means others are too good.

But a slight nerf to a couple of assemblies, a slight boost to some, and more of everything is how I'd do it. You can't balance everything, but you can give enough options to the player that it's up to them on what they want to overpower in any way they can.
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Balancing Assemblies
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2016, 03:58 »

The problem about playstyles is that not all currently work.
Same for masteries : I agree Ammochain is too powerful (so is BER, which isn't even a mastery), but some are completely useless (Bullet dance, Entrenchment, scavenger...), and ones like gun kata or shottyhead would have great potential IF only the playstyle they fit with worked as intended.

Agree that O and N are to good to be wasted on (bad) assemblies.  Well, N nearly always end-up on a nanomachic plasma for me (and antigrav boots for many other).  But wasting O for non-repairable armors (or N for cursed ones) is a funny idea :)

Increasing assemblies will be useless if they remain worse than regular weapons.  But giving WK the possibility to mod assemblies 2/3.. maybe 5 times would probably change this (we gotta keep in mind that a 5-modded assembly would cost 3+2 mods, so I'm not sure this would be too powerful).  The problem I see is that currently, WK already seems like a must to me :
1 single lvl of WK gives me 4 extra damages on my shotties, +A/P on armors & boots.  The second levels makes my boots awesome, allows me to make AOP armors, turns my beloved shotty to P3T2, which is really sweet, and gives some other cool buffs (Bs and Ps on BFG, and so...)
=> If I increased the number of mods dropped (and/or made assemblies more moddable), I'd probably also increase basic mod limit, at least on weapons, for everyone, and maybe nerf some mods, so that WK isn't mandatory (nor Overpowered)

About the ML from the wall... I'd agree to replace it (but probably keep it in C-Area).  I extremely rarely use ML (I prefer Tac RL, mainly for jumping), but it's a great weapon, and it kinda makes people forget about any other possible RL in the game.  In such case, don't forget to remove it from abyssal/skulls too (I never understood why there was one here) ^^
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Shadowfury333

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Re: Balancing Assemblies
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2016, 21:03 »

I don't know if this was ever the case before, but what if cornershooting was removed, and instead flinching was added? Basically, enemies would either have a chance to not act for a few 1/10ths of a second (weighted by damage dealt in a step) or have a delay weighted by damage taken that step. This would allow running and gunning, since enemies being hit would hit back less often, so the player isn't committing suicide on UV by going out in the open. It would also better fit the source material, since 90s FPS games pretty much all had a flinching mechanic.

This alone would help Shottyhead, and maybe also Gun Kata, though with Gun Kata I wonder if that wouldn't also need something like "Alt. Fire now allows choosing two targets, one for each pistol, to be shot at simultaneously". (NB I am strongly biased towards Gun Kata, so I'm probably asking for it to be overpowered without fully realizing it)

My first concern would be making the game too easy, but given that the current situation involves a strategy which takes no damage by basically shooting into the dark, I doubt it would make it that much easier.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 22:19 by Shadowfury333 »
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Sereg

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Re: Balancing Assemblies
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2016, 21:26 »

I like the idea of the flinching mechanic, though I have no concept of how it might affect game balance. Surely it makes more sense and fits the source material better then the current cornershooting mechanic, though.

It also adds an interesting twist to radar shooting - now that you know something's there, do you risk a step into the open, hoping you inflicted flinching with the minimal damage that remained from the shotgun dropoff?
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Balancing Assemblies
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2016, 04:55 »

Nice idea indeed.  But one other missing thing atm is the possibility to know when a monster will attack.
When you face a Cybie, you can dodge before he shoots, then shoot it until he reloads.

For all other monsters, you just can hope they won't attack. (exception for sergeants)
I think this mechanic would be very important in allowing strategies based on dodging.


You can make choices based on the informations you get.
If a lost soul is charging you, you'll dodge it... but not if there is a baron behind the corner.  Or maybe you'll dodge in some other direction, but not if you are in melee with a spider, which will then be able to shoot at you.


Currently, we just don't have informations about monsters actions, so... it's based on luck or statistics (and in UV, statistics are very bad for the doomGuy fighting in the open :)
No need to mention that, in N!, monsters attack all-the-time, with insane accuracy, making this strat clearly unplayable. (and imp/cacos/barons... don't have any reload time.  In comparison with the original doom, they used to attack like mad, indeed, but had an attack animation time.  Also, the doomguy inherently had GunRunner, which helps a lot, since shooting at monsters didn't turn him into a sitting duck :)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 18:48 by Evilpotatoe »
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