DoomRL > Discussion
Balancing Assemblies
Thomas:
Well, there are multiple reasons that they chose to use high-variance damage (I would hope), I just felt like there was a connection there. Because damage doesn't add up in the long term (usually), at least some individual fights have to be dangerous on their own. And to make some fights dangerous without making them all dangerous, they made most attacks deal 2d20 on a 50% hit instead of 8d3 with perfect accuracy.
--- Quote from: appuru on April 07, 2016, 08:30 ---Don't get me wrong, I actually dislike the swinginess of Crawl's damage and I wish enemy damage was easier to anticipate, but it works just fine. I wouldn't *want* DoomRL to go this route without a good reason, I'm just trying to say it's definitely possible to have a system where you're not always able to avoid damage even with ideal positioning. Would said system be more fun and interesting IN DoomRL? I don't know! But whatever becomes of DoomRL and/or JH I'd be glad to test it out.
--- End quote ---
Ah, the reason I replied earlier is because I don't agree with this. I love DoomRL much more than any other roguelike and it's because it's basically unique among its classic roguelike peers in being about positional tactics.* Removing cornershooting from DoomRL without replacing it with something else, or not including positional tactics in JH wouldn't make things fun and interesting and I wouldn't be glad to test it out.
*also it's not four times too long
Evilpotatoe:
I fully agree about the positional tactics you mention and its value, but currently, cornershooting is just WAY too easy.
An example of nerf would be the "Hell froze over" levels. I played a game a few days ago, where I sacrificed an assault shotty into plasmatic, hence ruining my covers (and finally dying to a lack of medkits / armors since every other shell removed my cover, giving barons, spiders and other friends dozens of opportunity to show their superiority).
I did it for the challenge, but hell... I wasn't disappointed !
The problem is that currently, the game is not ready for a removal of this mechanism. Remembers me when I didn't know about cornershooting... every run we tried ended-up at the wall... (Dlvl 7 IIRC, as of 0.9.9.6). And we were playing HNTR !
One thing I could imagine, if covers get removed, would be the idea of implementing lost-soul-like projectiles, which take time to reach the player, and can be dodged. (also, monster's attack should be preceded by an animation so that the player can stand-up in the open without too much risks of getting shred in 2 turns).
I really love the way lost sould work since 0.9.9.7, they force the player to choose between taking some damages or get forced to move, which is something you often would prefer to avoid. I think the games needs more mechanins forcing the player to choose between plague and cholera, it's something always fun to deal with :)
Other cool constraints include time-limited levels (I *hate* nukes !!!), which both prevent you from perma-waiting, and also encourage you to go for non-100% (I don't see why I would play less than 100% when it has no cost, but gives more xp and stuff).
I Guess this means it should have drawbacks : your precious time, ammo... also, not giving XP for monsters, and/or creating different kind of areas, not always worth visiting, would make the player more goal-oriented (currently, even a single imp is a goal in itself, since it gives XP.).
Oh, and btw, having to choose between moving and shooting doesn't help promoting "dodging" strategies. The contradiction is quite obvious : as soon as you encounter an enemy, you can :
A) try to dodge, leaving the baddy unharmed, and still getting some little chance to get hit
B) attack, negating all of your dodge, and making your traits useless, but... at least, after some shots, you'll have shot the bad guy.
You can't rely on your dodge if you need to stop and stand still everytime there's an enemy. I know I simplified the problem (dodging mancubi, or dodging between bareels can be more effective than what my A) pretends), but the issue remains : choosing A) will most of the time lead you nowhere, and you'll have to choose B) soon or later, making the dodging just an uneeded way of taking some extra damages.
Also, I think monster's chance to miss is currently too high without skills, and skills don't help the way they would need to. You don't need HR to just start "running" and shotgun-to-death an enemy with your 100% accuracy while your "running" tactic makes him miss 2/3 of his attacks, despite the fact you're not actually moving.
Thomas:
--- Quote from: Evilpotatoe on April 07, 2016, 12:22 ---(A story about how important cornershooting is to victory)
The problem is that currently, the game is not ready for a removal of this mechanism. Remembers me when I didn't know about cornershooting... every run we tried ended-up at the wall... (Dlvl 7 IIRC, as of 0.9.9.6). And we were playing HNTR !
--- End quote ---
Yep. I think everyone knows that if cornershooting were removed it would need to be replaced by something else immediately. But it's (probably) not happening for DoomRL, and if it did happen for JH then I would want this 'something else' to also promote positional tactics.
--- Quote ---Oh, and btw, having to choose between moving and shooting doesn't help promoting "dodging" strategies. The contradiction is quite obvious : as soon as you encounter an enemy, you can :
A) try to dodge, leaving the baddy unharmed, and still getting some little chance to get hit
B) attack, negating all of your dodge, and making your traits useless, but... at least, after some shots, you'll have shot the bad guy.
You can't rely on your dodge if you need to stop and stand still everytime there's an enemy. I know I simplified the problem (dodging mancubi, or dodging between bareels can be more effective than what my A) pretends), but the issue remains : choosing A) will most of the time lead you nowhere, and you'll have to choose B) soon or later, making the dodging just an uneeded way of taking some extra damages.
--- End quote ---
This isn't entirely correct. Obviously dodging around doesn't kill enemies unless, like you said, it's causing friendly fire between them. What the dodging system promotes is repositioning. You find a good spot to shoot the enemies from, you figure out a path towards it made out of sidestep moves and then you dodge your way there. It's what lets you start shooting in the first place.
Dodging can also get you closer to killing an enemy in more direct ways if you're playing Shottyman, naturally. Reloading is just as important as shooting for dealing damage.
And Shottyhead makes fighting in the open actually quite powerful, although it's only sometimes because of dodging (other times it's because of repeated knockback at the edge of your vision circle - cornershooting without the corner)
I'm probably just saying things you already knew. But anyway, comparing "moving" to "shooting" is only part of the picture when you're thinking about how useful sidestep dodging is.
--- Quote ---Also, I think monster's chance to miss is currently too high without skills, and skills don't help the way they would need to. You don't need HR to just start "running" and shotgun-to-death an enemy with your 100% accuracy while your "running" tactic makes him miss 2/3 of his attacks, despite the fact you're not actually moving.
--- End quote ---
I never feel like I dodge more when I get hellrunner. I'd only be slightly surprised if someone went in to the code and found "oh, whoops! That part hasn't been working for years!" I still get it a lot for the movespeed, though.
But what you said is interesting. Running mode is very powerful and I'm not sure how it should be changed.
--- Quote ---One thing I could imagine, if covers get removed, would be the idea of implementing lost-soul-like projectiles, which take time to reach the player, and can be dodged. (also, monster's attack should be preceded by an animation so that the player can stand-up in the open without too much risks of getting shred in 2 turns).
I really love the way lost sould work since 0.9.9.7, they force the player to choose between taking some damages or get forced to move, which is something you often would prefer to avoid. I think the games needs more mechanins forcing the player to choose between plague and cholera, it's something always fun to deal with :)
--- End quote ---
Actually, since you mentioned this, I've been working on my own game and I'm trying to make it so you can avoid most of the damage with positioning, but without cornershooting (or any kind of cover). I only came up with three kinds of ranged attacks, and you just mentioned two of them: 'Lost soul'-style projectiles, attacks that happen after a warning, and attacks that can only be fired at certain angles.
I'm interested to see what kind of enemy attacks and/or cover systems show up in JH.
Tormuse:
Hey Thomas, thanks for your input! It's nice to hear from someone who has a contrasting playstyle. :)
--- Quote from: Thomas on April 07, 2016, 07:16 ---
* Reloads all 5 shells on shottyman movement
--- End quote ---
The Tac shotgun doesn't do that any more; it only loads one shell per movement in this version. (It really has been a while since you played!) ;) Is that enough of a nerf for you? I don't think a damage nerf would be a good idea; no one would ever use it again. Personally, I think it's fine the way it is.
--- Quote from: Thomas on April 07, 2016, 07:16 ---Nanofiber armor
I already have infinite armor. I'm leaving entire suits of armor on the ground because I can't fit any more in my inventory.
Infinite durability is actually a pretty small upside (on regular armor. on really good armor with movespeed bonuses, holy moly that's not true)
How to fix it: Remove all protection penalties. The only downside should be "you used two mods to make an armor with no +protection or +movespeed"
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While it's true that there's plenty of armour around, sometimes, it's helpful to have an unbreakable armour to fall back on so you don't have to switch between damaged armours; having to switch armour during combat can be deadly. (Potentially saves you an inventory slot too) I don't always get it, but there are definitely situations where it's useful. I wouldn't recommend removing the protection penalties, because then it becomes the same as an Onyx mod and then the Onyx mod isn't special any more. Right now, it's sort of a "poor man's Onyx assembly," for games where you don't get an Onyx mod and I think it works well as it is.
--- Quote from: Evilpotatoe on April 05, 2016, 03:04 ---Btw, feel free to record a gundancing demo if you enjoy it, I'll be your first viewer ^^
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I had a really good recording going today, trying to do a Gunrunner build in Archangel of Red Alert, (figured I should try to get a badge while I was at it) :) but alas, I died just before getting Gunrunner due to a careless error where I shot a sergeant at point-blank range with my rocket launcher because I didn't realize I forgot to switch to my shotgun. (Oops!) :P It really sucked because the game was going pretty well up to that point. :( (Halfway through Deimos!) I don't know if you care to see that recording, but in any case, I'll have to try again another day; I have a busy weekend ahead of me and I'm not sure when I'll have free time to make another attempt.
Thomas:
--- Quote from: Tormuse on April 08, 2016, 00:33 ---The Tac shotgun doesn't do that any more; it only loads one shell per movement in this version. (It really has been a while since you played!) ;) Is that enough of a nerf for you? I don't think a damage nerf would be a good idea; no one would ever use it again. Personally, I think it's fine the way it is.
--- End quote ---
whoops
When I said "a while" I only meant half a year! I guess I just forgot about that bit.
I still think it's too good, though. It's my most-made assembly (barely beats tac boots, 5x more than tac armor and micro launcher) and every time I assemble it, it's my primary weapon for the entire game, outside of special levels in Hell.
EDIT: this used to say "I might use the tactical shotgun a lot because the other shotguns are bad" but I thought about it and that's not entirely it.
My companions to the tactical shotgun are generally the double shotgun and anything that makes big explosions. But the tactical shotgun is the most ammo-efficient of them all and works at any range, from point blank to edge of LOS.
It means that there's rarely thoughts of "My tactical shotgun won't work here, I need to swap", only things like "Here I am at The Wall/The City of Skulls, where I understand that I'll always be at the appropriate range for my Rocket Launcher/Double Shotgun." and "It's level 23 and I have finally ran out of shells, let's missile launcher our way through the rest of the game"
--- Quote ---While it's true that there's plenty of armour around, sometimes, it's helpful to have an unbreakable armour to fall back on so you don't have to switch between damaged armours; having to switch armour during combat can be deadly. (Potentially saves you an inventory slot too) I don't always get it, but there are definitely situations where it's useful. I wouldn't recommend removing the protection penalties, because then it becomes the same as an Onyx mod and then the Onyx mod isn't special any more. Right now, it's sort of a "poor man's Onyx assembly," for games where you don't get an Onyx mod and I think it works well as it is.
--- End quote ---
I did forget that Onyx even existed - so if BP and O just gave the same effect then that would be no good. I'm not sure how I would buff it now.
I don't really feel pressured by armor durability most of the time. Unmodded armor only becomes worse than nanofiber armor at 25% durability, and armor shards or new armor is plentiful enough that I rarely see my armor degrade to < 25%. (unless it's A-modded, then I'll gladly wear it all the way down to 0 unless I'm saving it to make tac armor)
And when my unmodded blue/red armor falls below 50% (or becomes nanofibered through some cruel twist of fate) I sometimes just take it off anyway! Do I want to trade 20% of my movespeed for 2 armor? Or 10% for 1? Well, yeah, usually but not always. But when I'm thinking of my armor as a slight upgrade to "literally being naked", there's probably something better just around the corner, like that 80% durability green that just dropped off my latest kill.
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