DoomRL > Discussion
Nightmare advice?
Sylph:
I'm with you in being an extremely high-turn-count player.
I also hit an absolute wall of difficult getting into nightmare, to a point where I could confidently tackle almost any UV challenges (only pistols, masterless etc), but just found nightmare impossible to progress on.
I then found that the corpse respawning of nightmare happens in 'pulses', and the chance of any individual corpse coming back to live each pulse is related to the time you've spent on the level!
Nightmare is a game mode that mostly lends itself to fast play. 100% runs are a LOT harder than just charging your way through with hellrunner and berserker. Melee builds are also somewhat favoured.
That said, I play almost exclusively on nightmare, and I do it methodically and extremely patiently. Learning enough about corpse disposal and enemy interactions will get you to a point where you can near 50% win rates, but you really have your work cut out for you tactically. You need every trick in the book.
For a starting point, I'd recommend a quick read of the 'corpse disposal' section in my guide here:
http://sylph.me.uk/2%20games/doomrl/DoomRLGuide.txt
I'd also recommend you become very familiar with cornershooting, giftdropping (you already know these), tagging, and standing on corpses. Once you can get away with general combat on a level, you can start devising tactics for special levels. The anomoly, for example, is one I've found easiest by rocket jumping to the *left* (towards the starting room) after the ambush is triggered, fighting until you've led most of the monsters towards you and can't survive in the starting room any longer, and THEN using a phase device. There's much, much less chance of appearing in the middle of a bunch of enemies.
horos:
Woah, this topic blew up quickly while I was busy!
First, i'd just like to post this here:
--------------------------------------------------------------
DoomRL (0.9.9.7) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------
horos, level 10 Hell Baron 2nd Lieutenant Scout,
defeated the Mastermind at the City of Dis.
He survived 377516 turns and scored 379849 points.
He played for 56 minutes and 1 second.
He opposed the Nightmare!
He killed 473 out of 968 hellspawn. (48%)
-- Special levels --------------------------------------------
Levels generated : 11
Levels visited : 4
Levels completed : 1
-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------
Cyberdemon's Head
UAC Star (bronze cluster)
UAC Platinum Badge
Longinus Platinum Badge
-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------
###########################################################
#########................................##################
########...............####...............#################
#######.......####.....####.....####.......################
######........####.....####.....####........###############
#####.........####.....####.....####.........##############
####..........####..............####..........#############
###............................................############
###....####............................####....############
###...&####............................####....############
###....####............................####....############
###....####...................%........####....############
###...........................X................############
####..........####..............####..........#############
#####.........####.....####.....####.........##############
######........####.....####.....####........###############
#######.......####.....####.....####.......################
########...............####...............#################
#########................................##################
###########################################################
-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------
Health 31/50 Experience 49250/10
ToHit Ranged +0 ToHit Melee +6 ToDmg Ranged +0 ToDmg Melee +9
-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------
Class : Scout
Hellrunner (Level 2)
Brute (Level 3)
Berserker (Level 1)
Dodgemaster (Level 1)
Intuition (Level 2)
Blademaster (Level 1)
Bru->Bru->Ber->HR->HR->Bru->MBm->Int->DM->Int->
-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------
[a] [ Armor ] red armor [4/4] (85%)
[b] [ Weapon ] Longinus Spear (8d8)
[c] [ Boots ] protective boots [2/2] (79%)
[d] [ Prepared ] shotgun (8d3) [1/1]
-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------
[a] rocket launcher (6d6) [1/1]
[b] ballistic vest [1/1] (84%)
[c] chainsaw (4d7) (P)
[d] shotgun shell (x28)
[e] shotgun shell (x50)
[f] shotgun shell (x50)
[g] shotgun shell (x50)
[h] shotgun shell (x50)
[i] shotgun shell (x50)
[j] small med-pack
[k] large med-pack
[l] large med-pack
[m] large med-pack
[n] large med-pack
[o] large med-pack
[p] agility mod pack
[q] steel boots [1/1] (100%)
[r] shell box (x100)
-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------
Bullet - internal 60% torso 60% feet 60%
Melee - internal 60% torso 60% feet 60%
Shrapnel - internal 60% torso 60% feet 60%
Acid - internal 85% torso 85% feet 95%
Fire - internal 85% torso 95% feet 85%
Plasma - internal 60% torso 60% feet 60%
-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------
80 former humans
60 former sergeants
29 former captains
121 imps
29 demons
53 lost souls
18 cacodemons
8 hell knights
12 barons of hell
3 arachnotrons
7 former commandos
1 pain elemental
17 mancubi
9 arch-viles
3 nightmare imps
3 nightmare cacodemons
15 nightmare demons
2 bruiser brothers
1 Angel of Death
1 Cyberdemon
1 Spider Mastermind
-- History ---------------------------------------------------
He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
On level 2 he entered Hell's Arena.
He cowardly fled the Arena.
On level 5 he stormed the Chained Court.
On level 8 he encountered the Phobos Anomaly.
Level 12 was a hard nut to crack!
On level 16 he found the Tower of Babel!
He left level 17 as soon as possible.
On level 17 he invaded the Unholy Cathedral!
On level 17 he found the Longinus Spear!
He then destroyed the Unholy Cathedral!
He left level 18 as soon as possible.
On level 19 he entered the Vaults.
He came, he saw, but he left.
On level 21 he stumbled into a nightmare demon cave!
Then at last he found Dis!
On level 24 he finally defeated the Mastermind.
-- Messages --------------------------------------------------
You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You need to
taste blood!
You need to taste blood!
You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You need to
taste blood!
You need to taste blood!
You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You need to
taste blood!
You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You're going
berserk! You need to taste blood!
You need to taste blood!
You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You need to
taste blood!
You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind dies. Congratulations!
You defeated the Spider Mastermind! Press <Enter>...
Next!
-- General ---------------------------------------------------
52 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
36 of those were killed.
1 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
And 4 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.
11 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
7 killed the bitch and survived.
4 showed that it can outsmart Hell itself.
--------------------------------------------------------------
--- End code ---
So, I managed to finally beat N! for the first time ever! Thanks for all your help, guys. It's not that much of an achievement, really, but it's a start.
I tried not to rely on RNG, and I tried to keep track of turn counts as well. (100 turns for a berserk pack..? Or something around there, and 20 turns off a proc.) I did get pretty lucky with medpack drops at the end, since I was hovering around 3 for most of the game, and once got down to none.
Even when I got to the UC - even though i was invincible through that fight so I didn't waste any HP - the game wasn't won at that point. There were still a lot of really bad spawns (No armour, I picked up that red one on the very last level) where i'd be surrounded by 3 packs of 2xV with loads of sergeants, commandos, and mancubi (I hate those things so much!). So it relied on me trying to be flung around the room while berserk and try to get to the stairs ASAP (and perhaps getting a few kills along the way, if a group of helpless mobs are there and I can proc a berserk off them) using the scout stair sense. I think it would be a lot more difficult as a technician or a marine - being a scout reduced the number of double actions a lot, too.
There was one level - perhaps a hellish city? I'm not quite sure of the level type name - where there were a bunch of rooms surrounded by lava, so I took my time cornershooting and making sure to finish corpses into the lava. This didn't work with Vs very often considering how fast they are (And their melee attack hurts!), but luckily there was only around 5-6 on that level. It was worth it, as I got a nice supercharge and berserk right next to the stairs as my reward.
The anamoly was the most stressful part, for sure. I lost my berserk right before going into it, so I smacked a barrel next to the stairs (and got a proc, thank you Thomas!) and went down. I had the fortune of a phase device - not a rocket launcher - and it took me next to the bruiser brothers. From there it was a simple matter of gibbing them and getting some berserk turns, then going back and killing all the nightmare enemies in the doorway as they came out. Given that I found and used a phase device, i'm not entirely satisfied with how this run went. It feels like a fluke and not a step forward towards consistency.
That said though, a win is a win, no matter how undeserving, and i'm very thankful for all your help!
--- Quote from: Sylph ---Nightmare is a game mode that mostly lends itself to fast play. 100% runs are a LOT harder than just charging your way through with hellrunner and berserker. Melee builds are also somewhat favoured.
That said, I play almost exclusively on nightmare, and I do it methodically and extremely patiently. Learning enough about corpse disposal and enemy interactions will get you to a point where you can near 50% win rates, but you really have your work cut out for you tactically. You need every trick in the book.
I'd also recommend you become very familiar with cornershooting, giftdropping (you already know these), tagging, and standing on corpses. Once you can get away with general combat on a level, you can start devising tactics for special levels. The anomoly, for example, is one I've found easiest by rocket jumping to the *left* (towards the starting room) after the ambush is triggered, fighting until you've led most of the monsters towards you and can't survive in the starting room any longer, and THEN using a phase device. There's much, much less chance of appearing in the middle of a bunch of enemies.
--- End quote ---
Thanks a ton for this! I'm glad that it's possible to play through N! methodically and patiently, and it's not required to rambo through every time (Er, sorry Sereg...). 50% win rate is consistant enough given that I reset the beginning level, so i'll aim for that - in the very, very long term.
I do have to dash for now, but i'll check out your guide. I gave the first bit a quick look over and it covers stuff in a well written and precise way - perfect for me to show some friends just starting out now. Once again, I appreciate it!
Minaro:
Just keep in mind that some stuff in her guide seems outdated, but anything related to tactics and mechanics in general is all good. Congratulations on your victory.
I thought I'd ask since I actually remembered, does anyone know what it means when the Mastermind flinches? I mean, mechanically in the game.
ZicherCZ:
--- Quote from: Minaro on January 23, 2017, 10:38 ---I thought I'd ask since I actually remembered, does anyone know what it means when the Mastermind flinches? I mean, mechanically in the game.
--- End quote ---
This means that Spidey took a hard enough damage from a single hit, and loses its next action. Note that since her speed is 150%, she can still act before you do, unless you are fast enough yourself.
--- Quote ---... in his guide ...
--- End quote ---
Make it "in her guide" ;) (you probably couldn't have known, of course).
Moonshine Fox:
--- Quote from: horos on January 23, 2017, 08:24 ---So, I managed to finally beat N! for the first time ever! Thanks for all your help, guys. It's not that much of an achievement, really, but it's a start.
--- End quote ---
Don't downplay your achievement. Winning on N! is very much an achievement, even if you with your skillevel think it's not.
Me I've personally only beaten it on HMP several times, but never on UV, so I'd say to me winning on N! seems impossible and very much worthy of achievement. ^^
Congratulations!
Also, Sylph, thanks a ton for the guide! I didn't know it existed, and even though some things in there are obviously out of date or downright missing, I did learn a lot from reading it. Especially things that I had a vague idea existed before, but never really understood till now.
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