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Nightmare advice?

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ZicherCZ:
IMHO, you might have done better if you switched tactics to running and ran back to the left entrance. Running lowers enemy accuracy and increases you speed, so even if you would probably take a few bites, you could make it there. And once there, you could at least face the demons one at a time, instead of being surrounded by six of them ...

Tormuse:
I have to go to work in a moment, but very briefly...


--- Quote from: horos on January 20, 2017, 02:57 ---Now, obviously we can't all be Neo, er, TwoDev, but I don't understand in what way he (and others! Credit where credit is due) performs some of the challenges he does - and in very little time, at that!

--- End quote ---

I think it's best not to try to make sense of 2Dev's games; they don't make sense to anyone else either.  :P


--- Quote from: horos on January 21, 2017, 07:01 ---I kinda just died in one turn. How do people complete this level on N!, let alone damageless? Phase device abuse? What happens if you don't encounter one?


--- End quote ---

I don't think it's possible to do it damageless without a lucky phase device or invulnerability.  You can reduce the damage a lot by rocket-jumping out of the ambush, but that strategy depends on you having completed Hell's Arena, so it wouldn't have helped you in this case.

Other than that, lots of corner-shooting, radar-shooting, and generally shooting enemies outside of their visual range so they don't get a chance to shoot you.  I recorded myself doing this not too long ago; you can see it at the beginning of this video.  (Ultra-Violence difficulty, but you get the idea)

More later; gotta go!

horos:
Thank you both so much for your responses! Everything helps me puzzle it out a little more. I appreciate it a lot!


--- Quote from: ZicherCZ on January 21, 2017, 08:57 ---IMHO, you might have done better if you switched tactics to running and ran back to the left entrance. Running lowers enemy accuracy and increases you speed, so even if you would probably take a few bites, you could make it there. And once there, you could at least face the demons one at a time, instead of being surrounded by six of them ...

--- End quote ---

I see! I was going to do just that - and use a large medikit - after I procced a berserk, but...well, you can see how that ended up. :p

I know when surrounded by enemies like that i've had YASDs result from the time it takes to change tactics, and I suppose what was going through my mind was "I don't want to risk it"? I'm not sure. But if I get that far again, i'll definitely give that strategy a try!



--- Quote from: Tormuse on January 21, 2017, 13:22 ---I think it's best not to try to make sense of 2Dev's games; they don't make sense to anyone else either.  :P
--- End quote ---

Haha, that's fair enough! I'm curious to know *how* he does it, but i'll take what I can get!


--- Quote ---I don't think it's possible to do it damageless without a lucky phase device or invulnerability.  You can reduce the damage a lot by rocket-jumping out of the ambush, but that strategy depends on you having completed Hell's Arena, so it wouldn't have helped you in this case.
--- End quote ---

Ahh, yes! The rocket jump! Why didn't I think of that...? (I suppose i've never had need to use it before, so...)

That's a brilliant idea that should help with a lot more consistency. Thanks!

I suppose you can get lucky finding a rocket launcher before the hellgate, too, but if you *need* a Phase device or a Rocket Launcher to clear it on N!...well. :p


--- Quote ---Other than that, lots of corner-shooting, radar-shooting, and generally shooting enemies outside of their visual range so they don't get a chance to shoot you.  I recorded myself doing this not too long ago; you can see it at the beginning of this video.  (Ultra-Violence difficulty, but you get the idea)
--- End quote ---

Wow, that was one lucky phase device, damn!

That's the kind of strategy that I tend to use on ultra violence - and it works great. (Mind you, i'm a tad more slow about it :p) It tends to not work on N!, for me, I find, since in the time that it's taken for me to scout/damage mobs at range (With the 2x armour applied, and damage falloff at range on shotguns) that ones i've killed recently in the area have respawned. I'm not sure if there's a formula to the respawning of if i've just been really unlucky with times; On that mortem I posted earlier I actually spent a few turns waiting outside the base entry to try and stack corpses in the door, and around 5-10 wait turns after I killed him last, one sergeant I missed that was chilling out above me would respawn.

It not working for me in N! - and perhaps i'm just doing it wrong, haha - is the premise behind the topic, after all!


--- Quote ---More later; gotta go!

--- End quote ---

Don't feel obligated to reply! I appreciate the advice of course, but work takes priority!

-----------

One thing i've gained from the replies so far is that N! Games seem to depend on RNG factors - or massive feats of skill (Getting the RL from N! HA to do the hellgate, for example) to be completed with any amount of consistency. Is that correct? (Obviously skill helps, but i'm talking about doing very ~diamond level stuff on a regular basis to...essentially consistantly complete a ~platinum level standard win.)

Thomas:
Here's some more information about Berserker:
The way Berserker works is pretty consistant - the effect lasts for 20 turns and if you melee attack four times in a row you will definitely go berserk. Sometimes it's less than four, which depends on how many enemies are in LOS, I think. This effect will help out if you climb down stairs and end up right next to a big enemy or a large group of them.

But the other way it can proc is by taking heavy damage in a single hit. If you take one third of your maximum HP in damage (lower bounded to 10, if your max HP is below 30) then you certainly go berserk and, not only that, but you retroactively get the 60% damage reduction from being berserk applied to the attack that did the heavy damage to you. This is supremely useful when fighting arch-viles and the cyberdemon, because their powerful attacks usually* trigger this.

No enemy in the inital dlvl 8 ambush on N! can do that much damage in one hit. You don't have enough time to attack four times, either. Also, that fight's dangerous as heck even if you are already berserk! You have to find a way to run through it - I try to keep the very long berserk effect from CC going all the way to dlvl 8 to help out with that.

Basically, Berserker's fantastic if you're facing down the right kind of enemy, but just because you have it doesn't mean you can wade in to melee and get your free win in a big brawl - I mean, you figured that out last game.

*Important cutoffs:
50 max HP - Cyberdemon and AoD melee (usually), Cyberdemon rockets (very usually), Arch-Vile explosion (always). Other late-game enemies might trigger it if you're lucky.
60 max HP - Cyberdemon rockets (half of the time), Arch-Vile explosion (always)
70 max HP - Cyberdemon rockets (possibly)

AoHu - Pretty much any non rapid-fire attack. Cacodemons and hell knights usually won't, making them pretty dangerous!

EDIT: Napalm barrels do more damage than the cyberdemon - they will always make you go berserk even with 60 HP. Acid barrels do equal damage to the cyberdemon, so they're great too. Stand next to them.

Minaro:
I haven't managed a lot of success on N! runs thus far, my best run was when I was away from home over the holidays, and I had to cut that run short somewhere near Hell because I had to go back home. I'll give you a few tips from what I've personally gathered though.

1) Fight most enemies in melee early on, if you can. Most enemies will deal less damage to you with their melee attacks compared to their ranged attacks (especially all kinds of Formers and Arachnotrons), and you don't need to deal with the splash damage. On other difficulty levels it isn't as true (except for Formers and spiders) due to the fact that below UV, they have less accuracy and are less likely to hit you at range.
On top of that there's the fact that N! gives them +50% attack chance, meaning they'll spend less time just moving and more time actually shooting at you. A drawback of moving into melee on lower difficulties is the fact that they'll be attacking you every action they take regardless of their attack chance, but on N! they usually do that anyway.
So if you're herding enemies into a doorway to prevent corpses from spawning then move up into melee range before attacking them.. unless you're confident you can kill them in one more shot. This obviously doesn't apply to Demons, and is situational for Imps since their melee damage output almost matches their ranged one. Also be careful if you're using a shotgun, since the knockback and your position could just knock them out of the doorway instead. This tip is a lot more prevelant on AoD runs though, since waiting for enemies to show up is safer normally. On AoD (unless you have Cateye) you can't really afford to stand around anywhere open while skipping turns, since the enemies will see you before you see them. (I'm mentioning this because I'm doing a N! AoD run myself atm)

2) Abuse Imps if you've managed to kill something important early on and can't find a readily available way of getting rid of the corpse. Imps tend to be plentiful on earlier levels and you generally don't want that Knight/Baron/Cacodemon respawning. Letting an Imp fire at you to get rid of the corpse can hurt a lot less than risking that thing respawning. If you killed it near a wall or something similar you might not even need to get hit - you might be able to dodge to have him splash the corpse anyway.


There are a lot of other general things I could mention, but from what you've told me it sounds like you've got a good grasp of most of it. I thought I'd move onto some points specifically for the Hellgate;

*Switching to the running tactic only takes 0.1 seconds of in-game time. Most of the time, your enemies won't be able to act during that time.
*Switching from running to tired manually is instant.
*Next time you play through the Hellgate, take note of the x-position you trigger the walls dropping - you can activate your running action on the step before that and already be running when the walls drop.
*No matter what build you're using, run towards the entrance. I doubt there's any builds (unless you've been abnormally lucky) that are equipped to handle those enemies in the open. You'll die before you have a chance to go Berserk for Berserk-builds. Malicious Blades builds would have a better chance but would still get hammered by the Cacos and Imps, but might be able to do it with enough Med Kits.
*If possible, have some knockback resistance handy - I'd prioritize getting a Technical mod onto your boots over Tactical Boots in this situation, since getting knocked back by the Cacos/Imps while running towards cover is devastating.
*Related to the previous point, any build that doesn't have a lot of Hellrunner will likely have little chance reaching the entrance before you die without knockback resistance, rocket jumping and/or luck.
*Remotely related to the previous point, the fastest and safest way of getting back to the entrance is probably rocket jumping, if available.

Probably forgot a few points, but that should cover most of what I know. Good luck getting past the Hellgate, in my opinion it's the biggest hurdle on N! - on the run I did get past it everything felt a lot easier afterwards. Stay away from the Mortuary/Limbo unless you're really confident though... Or found an Invulnerability+Nuke.

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