DoomRL > Discussion
Nightmare advice?
Tormuse:
--- Quote from: horos on January 28, 2017, 02:14 ---If you really wanted to record something, perhaps a guide to all of the special levels. I know the two that people I show/get to play the game and seem to have trouble with the most on lower difficulties are Hell's Arena and Phobos Lab, so if you wanted to record something in a general case perhaps those two on N! would be great.
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Well, I kind of already have a couple videos of me completing Hell's Arena at Nightmare! They come in two flavours: Pistols and shotguns. :D And if you click the "show more" button on the description, you'll see I included some handy-dandy buttons that navigate to the start of each of the special levels. I put those in all of my videos for the convenience of anyone who doesn't feel like watching the whole video. :) (It contains a link to the Chaosforge thread where I talk about the run too) The second video also includes Phobos Lab.
--- Quote from: horos on January 28, 2017, 02:14 --- Please don't feel obligated to do so, though - i'd rather an effort like a recording go towards helping out the community at large rather then just myself. I do appreciate the thought a lot though - you're very kind.
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Awww, well, you're part of the community too, aren't you? :) Anyway, I've been looking for ideas of what to record for a while. The forums have been so quiet lately that I can't tell if anyone has been watching my videos, so I figure if I'm going to go to the effort of making one, it should be something that someone wants to watch. :)
--- Quote from: horos on January 28, 2017, 02:14 ---I've see [Malicious Blades] recommended a lot, actually. Is losing Berserker really worth it? I've personally *never* taken a build with it. It has some great utility clearly, (does the 50% resistance give you less knockback vs sergeants?) especially versus arch-viles, but you lose the great perks that come with berserking. I'll keep an open mind, but could someone detail the benefits for me? Seems like in the cases where i'd appreciate the damage resistance i'd rather take a big hit and go berserk and then smack everything up.
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A lot of the benefit of Malicious Blades comes from the Hellrunner and Dodgemaster. For enemies that fire plasma and acid like Cacodemons, Hell Knights, and Barons, you can go zig-zagging up to them without getting hit and once you're in melee range, you can shred them while only taking one or two points of damage in return. Arachnotrons might still do a bit of damage, but you'll still be going fast enough to dodge most of it. (Side note: I recommend lots of zig-zagging anyway, since it increases chances of dodging; I do it so much in my games that it's long become second nature)
I haven't played any games with MB for a while, but... *digs through forum archives* ...I have a couple of notable games from previous versions here and here. (Sorry those were before I started making videos) :)
And let's not forget that MB lets you wield and hit with two Chainswords at once! :D I just love the epicness of that concept. :D
--- Quote from: horos on January 28, 2017, 02:14 ---I've used [Vampyre] a lot in lower difficulties for fun but because it blocks hellrunner (A trait that I find quite important on UV - and consequently N!) i've never considered taking it in a serious game on a higher difficulty. Is it worth taking? How do you adapt to the slower movespeed, especially on N! (Assuming it's worth taking, that is)
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You've just brought up my all time favourite trait in DRL! :D I've had tons of success with a variety of challenges with a Vampyre build. :) It's worth noting that being berserk increases your speed, so the speed penalty isn't as bad as you might think, and at all other times, tactical boots are helpful and so is running. It's also prudent to take cover and lure enemies over to you whenever possible; getting caught in the open without Hellrunner is not fun with any build. :| In short, Vampyre is most definitely worth taking in N! games. :) If you need further proof, I have a Vampyre build N! game where I kill everything with my fists here. :D (Including completely clearing Phobos Anomaly!) :)
--- Quote from: Thomas on January 28, 2017, 04:25 ---I'm not very familiar with everyone's Nightmare strategies, but I doubt that many of the special levels on N! are ever worth it even for master players - unless you're going for a badge that requires you to complete one of the harder ones...
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Pretty much... though it's often prudent to at least *try* the special levels so you can get a bit of extra experience. For the late game of N!, you need all the leveling up your character can get!
--- Quote from: AlterAsc on January 28, 2017, 04:32 ---Also MMB fire protection extends to feet too. Lava diving is still not recommended, but not longer deadly.
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I've always thought this is hilarious! :D I guess your character is so skilled at waving knives around that they can deflect the lava away from touching your feet? How does that work? :P
--- Quote from: Sylph on January 28, 2017, 06:50 ---I almost always play N! runs as conquerer...
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Wow... I still remember the days when I had no idea it was possible to get Conqueror in N! How times change, eh? :)
Thomas:
--- Quote from: Tormuse on January 28, 2017, 20:58 ---I've always thought this is hilarious! :D I guess your character is so skilled at waving knives around that they can deflect the lava away from touching your feet? How does that work? :P
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Knife stilts, my dude.
--- Quote from: Sylph on January 28, 2017, 06:50 ---I almost always play N! runs as conquerer. I think the special levels are a really interesting exercise in strategic thought. :(
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--- Quote ---Wow... I still remember the days when I had no idea it was possible to get Conqueror in N! How times change, eh? :)
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Indeed. Hearing that it's your preferred way of playing N! is quite surprising and might embolden me to take a crack at it some time. It's a shame that none of the badges/medals really encourage it - over things that are literally impossible, like damageless N!, no less.
Are there any special levels (beyond the ones where corpse management is trivial, like Skulls and Carnage) where you feel that you come out in better shape than you went in with, or is it entirely the desire for Conqueror that makes you do them?
Minaro:
--- Quote from: Thomas on January 28, 2017, 21:23 ---Are there any special levels (beyond the ones where corpse management is trivial, like Skulls and Carnage) where you feel that you come out in better shape than you went in with, or is it entirely the desire for Conqueror that makes you do them?
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Military Base. Just open one of the two middle doors in the starting area, kill the two guards outside, drop a medpack in the doorway and kill them all in melee range. Depending on how patient you are you might risk taking slightly more damage than necessary, but in general you shouldn't take much at all.
horos:
--- Quote from: Sylph on January 28, 2017, 04:13 ---You leech health from respawning enemies. :P
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I sort of thought the lack of HR getting through the early levels would make it difficult, but...
...Yeah, now that I think about it, it sounds downright dirty. Heh.
--- Quote from: Minaro ---The biggest problem with Berserk is the lack of flexibility, and how screwed you are if you end up in a bad spot. Berserk will never proc from the attacks of most enemies, and even some that may often have to roll in the higher ranges to cause you to go berserk.
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Ah, this is pretty good stuff. I'm totally not giving it a go on my next run.
However...Wouldn't it be ridiculous on AoB-
--- Quote from: AlterAsc on January 28, 2017, 04:32 ---tl;dr version:
Pros: big survivability boost all of the time, melee damage output is consistent so you don't play like you're on timer. 4 out of 6 trait requirements you want anyway.
Cons: less damage for pure melee builds, much harder to get MMB on AoB, no EE/Intuition.
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Ah. Yeah, thought so.
Although, that brings up an interesting point. See, I always associated Malicious Blades with "Melee Master Traits" - that is, "You're whacking stuff with the nearest available object! Guns are for wusses!". I never considered actually taking it as part of a utility build - and now i'm starting to understand what the technician class offers (over the brute strength of the Marine class and the ability of the Scout class to recover from bad positions). It seems to put you at a disadvantage early game though (Especially with the 10% speed penalty, but that's mitigated where you can take HR) but gives you a unique advantage mid/late game. Just because a trait is labelled as "xyz master trait" doesn't mean it strictly has to be so - and you don't strictly have to fight with one combat style if taking a master trait.
I also had a good chuckle about MMB giving you feet lava protection. That's practical (if nothing else) - I've lost count of the amount of times I end up cursing after having my only path blocked by a quick lava bath (That rockets won't fix).
--- Quote from: Sylph on January 28, 2017, 06:50 ---I almost always play N! runs as conquerer. I think the special levels are a really interesting exercise in strategic thought. :(
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Teach me your ways.
--- Quote from: Tormuse on January 28, 2017, 20:58 ---Well, I kind of already have a couple videos of me completing Hell's Arena at Nightmare! They come in two flavours: Pistols and shotguns. :D And if you click the "show more" button on the description, you'll see I included some handy-dandy buttons that navigate to the start of each of the special levels. I put those in all of my videos for the convenience of anyone who doesn't feel like watching the whole video. :) (It contains a link to the Chaosforge thread where I talk about the run too) The second video also includes Phobos Lab.
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Hey, thanks! I took a quick peek (As i'm busy prepping for the start of courses tomorrow...don't tell anyone!) and I never thought of doing CC+ the way you did so (And have always struggled with it). It's helpful not just for corpse management, but you take a lot less damage, too. Now to see if I can actually pull it off (or something similar at least) next run I do - although I might try on UV first. :p
Graphics have spoiled me, i'm surprised I still understood the ASCII!
--- Quote ---Awww, well, you're part of the community too, aren't you? :)
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Ah, I appreciate it! My time's come and gone, though.
--- Quote ---The forums have been so quiet lately that I can't tell if anyone has been watching my videos
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Probably because everyone's waiting on Jupiter Hell (And/or hoping quietly for another DoomRL release sometime!)
--- Quote --- Arachnotrons might still do a bit of damage, but you'll still be going fast enough to dodge most of it.
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I always do try and sidestep volley-fire enemies like commandos and chaingunners but most of their volleys hit me anyway (Unlike my plasma rifles, which always seem to miss :P). Is this something innate to volley fire and dodge chance?
--- Quote ---And let's not forget that MB lets you wield and hit with two Chainswords at once! :D
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So MMB is basically this?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I can get behind that.
--- Quote --- It's also prudent to take cover and lure enemies over to you whenever possible; getting caught in the open without Hellrunner is not fun with any build. :| In short, Vampyre is most definitely worth taking in N! games. :)
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So...A camping skill?
Sounds great. Count me in.
Tormuse:
--- Quote from: Thomas on January 28, 2017, 21:23 ---Knife stilts, my dude.
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Malicious Knife Stilts! :D :D :D
--- Quote from: Thomas on January 28, 2017, 21:23 ---Indeed. Hearing that it's your preferred way of playing N! is quite surprising and might embolden me to take a crack at it some time. It's a shame that none of the badges/medals really encourage it - over things that are literally impossible, like damageless N!, no less.
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I agree that playing damageless is a little ridiculous, but there's still Veteran Angelic and Elite Angelic; if you can 100% conquer a N! game, you can get those two.
--- Quote from: Thomas on January 28, 2017, 21:23 ---Are there any special levels (beyond the ones where corpse management is trivial, like Skulls and Carnage) where you feel that you come out in better shape than you went in with, or is it entirely the desire for Conqueror that makes you do them?
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If by "better shape" you mean more health, then that eliminates most levels, because they tend not to have a lot of healing sources and the ones that do tend to have some pretty tough opposition. (Like Mortuary/Limbo) Other than that, the special levels all provide a certain amount of challenge, so coming out in better shape depends a lot on your skill level; for example, the Wall/Containment Area has no healing and really tough enemies, but unique rewards that I personally find very helpful for my playstyle, (packrat that I am) :P so if I feel confident enough with my equipment at the time, I'll give it a try, even though I may lose significant amounts of resources going in.
But as for the "easy" special levels, the basic Chained Court is one. (And if you're tough enough to take on Hell's Arena, CC+ is comparatively easy) Possibly Unholy Cathedral if you have Berserker trait? Vaults can be tricky, but has plenty of cover, assuming you have the means of opening it up, and has huge rewards. Lava Pits and Mount Erebus could qualify, as long as you have the right equipment (envirosuits or Cerberus boots) and are careful to knock those pesky Revenants into the lava...
--- Quote from: Minaro on January 28, 2017, 22:52 ---Military Base. Just open one of the two middle doors in the starting area, kill the two guards outside, drop a medpack in the doorway and kill them all in melee range. Depending on how patient you are you might risk taking slightly more damage than necessary, but in general you shouldn't take much at all.
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Absolutely... And if you do take damage, there are plenty of healing sources in the crates in the room on the right. I breathe a sigh of relief every time I get Military Base instead of Phobos Lab. It is much, much easier.
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