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[Moonshine Fox]

Continuing my Pistols Only runs.

Alright, so Cybie is a complete pushover if you have Dodgemaster. He will literally never hit you (although he can sometimes blindfire into walls nearby you and still do damage, but most of the time you'll be fine).

The four power mods I have in my inventory was for when I got Whizkid (one more level -.-) so I could assemble two Energy Pistols in order to get a better weapon. My T-modded pistols have been with me since like level 3. There really is an extreme lack of viable weapons for pistol builds, I've noticed. Only when you get SoG3+ do you really start feeling like guns actually do something. Before that there's a lot of pea-shooting.

And on top of that Bruiser Brothers and Barons of Hell seem to be my complete bane. They don't fire often enough to make dodging a valuable tactic. They'll walk up to you to melee, and thus push you into a corner and either melee you or hit you with splash. It's really hard fighting these guys in the very narrow levels of hell.

Also, how you deal with Revenants and Mancubi? Both of them fire A LOT, do decent melee damage (the Revenant especially) and both have huge splash, leading to an impossible quest to dodge them. Just corner shoot? And if you don't have a corner, just slog it out and hope you win?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (0.9.9.7) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Charchian, level 9 Hell Baron 2nd Lieutenant Scout,
 was bruised by a baron of hell on level 2 of Hell.
 He survived 76099 turns and scored 56571 points.
 He played for 1 hour, 21 minutes and 31 seconds.
 He didn't like it too rough.

 He killed 449 out of 473 hellspawn. (94%)
 He held his right to remain violent.
 He was an Angel of Marksmanship!

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 11
  Levels visited   : 6
  Levels completed : 5

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  UAC Star (bronze cluster)
  Hell Armorer Badge
  Hell Champion Medal

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  ==============#.............#.^"#0..0.#......[#..}........#
  ==============#.............#...#.%..0#.#####.#.#########./
  ==============+........|....#...#.....#.#..|#.#.#.......#.#
  ############+#######+######/#...#..==.#.#...#.#.#.......#.#
  .............|..^.........../...#===.=/.#...#.#.#.OO....#.#
  ##+#########+############+#/#...#=====#.#...#.#.#.......#.#
  ....O.......................#...#===.=#.#...#.#%#..O....#.#
  #########+###################...#.===.#.#.."#%#.#.......#.#
  .......^..^..+.}............#.../.....#.#...#.|.#.......+.#
  ........##.........##.##....#.%.#.....#.#.%|/.#.#..[+...#.#
  ..##....##.........##.##....#...#.%}..#.#..}#.#.#.......#.#
  ..##........0...##..........#.X.#.....#.#...#.#.#.......#.#
  .....##.........##.....##...#...#.....#.#...#.#.#.......#.#
  ..|..##............##..##...#.B.#.0...#.#...#.#.#.......#.#
  ............##.....##.......#...#.....#.#...#.#.#|......#.#
  ............##..............#...#.....#.#.".#i#.#.......#.#
  ...0...............}........#...#.....#.#####.#.#########./
  ............................#...#.....#.......#...........#
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 0/50   Experience 36114/9
  ToHit Ranged +0  ToHit Melee +0  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +0

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Scout

    Finesse          (Level 2)
    Hellrunner       (Level 2)
    Son of a gun     (Level 2)
    Dualgunner       (Level 1)
    Dodgemaster      (Level 1)
    Gun Kata         (Level 1)

  SoG->SoG->DG->HR->HR->DM->MGK->Fin->Fin->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   fireproof red armor [1/4] (12%)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   pistol (2d4) [0/6] (T1)
    [c] [ Boots      ]   plasteel boots [4/4] (95%) (P)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   pistol (2d4) [0/6] (T1)

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] 10mm ammo (x23)
    [b] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [c] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [d] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [e] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [f] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [g] power cell (x50)
    [h] power cell (x50)
    [i] power cell (x50)
    [j] power cell (x50)
    [k] power cell (x50)
    [l] power cell (x50)
    [m] power cell (x50)
    [n] power cell (x50)
    [o] envirosuit pack
    [p] thermonuclear bomb
    [q] power mod pack
    [r] power mod pack
    [s] power mod pack
    [t] power mod pack
    [u] Arena Master's Staff

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    Melee      - internal 0%    torso 4294967266% feet 0%   
    Acid       - internal 0%    torso 0%    feet 50% 
    Fire       - internal 0%    torso 13%   feet 25% 

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    85 former humans
    41 former sergeants
    17 former captains
    92 imps
    52 demons
    91 lost souls
    30 cacodemons
    8 hell knights
    4 barons of hell
    13 arachnotrons
    4 former commandos
    4 pain elementals
    1 revenant
    2 mancubi
    2 bruiser brothers
    1 shambler
    1 Cyberdemon
    1 Arena Master

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 2 he entered Hell's Arena.
  He left the Arena as a champion!
  On level 5 he stormed the Chained Court.
  On level 5 he found the Arena Master's Staff!
  He defeated the Hell Arena Master!
  On level 7 he sneaked into the Phobos Lab.
  He broke through the lab.
  On level 8 he encountered the Phobos Anomaly.
  On level 9 he entered Hell's Armory.
  On level 9 he found the Charch's Null Pointer!
  He destroyed the evil within and reaped the rewards!
  On level 11 he arrived at the Containment Area.
  Not knowing what to do, he left.
  On level 13 he ran for his life from acid!
  On level 14 he ventured into the Spider's Lair.
  He cleared the Lair, kickin' serious spider ass!
  On level 15 he assembled a fireproof armor!
  On level 16 he found the Tower of Babel!
  Level 18 was a hard nut to crack!
  On level 18 he finally was bruised by a baron of hell.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 You see : a baron of hell (lightly wounded) | floor | [ m ]ore
 The missile hits the baron of hell. The missile hits the baron of hell.
 You dodge! Boom!
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : a baron of hell (wounded) | floor | [ m ]ore
 The missile hits the baron of hell.
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : a baron of hell (wounded) | floor | [ m ]ore
 The missile hits the baron of hell.
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : a baron of hell (wounded) | floor | [ m ]ore
 The missile hits the baron of hell. The missile hits the baron of hell.
 The baron of hell hits you. Your fireproof red armor is damaged!
 The baron of hell hits you.
 You dodge! Boom! Your fireproof red armor is damaged! You die!... Press
 <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 197 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 172 of those were killed.
 2 of those were killed by something unknown.
 3 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
 And 10 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 10 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 6 killed the bitch and survived.
 4 showed that it can outsmart Hell itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------


Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ZicherCZ]

I completely agree that pistol runs are somewhat luck-based as far as equipment goes. You can only get so far with two standard pistols, and I remember playing an Ao100 run during which I had to stay with a high power standard pistol well until the seventies, and never met any single exotic/unique pistol throughout the entire game.

Speaking of high-power pistols - IMHO, two high-power pistols would serve your build better on this run than two T-modded ones. You would get 4 extra damage per dualshot on average, and you would also gain a 1/12 chance per shot for knockback. You would need to reload more often, sure - but with these guns you would still have a good chance of killing a single opponent before you need to reload.

You are also right about SoG3 - the DPS increase between SoG2 and SoG3 is ~75%. IMHO, picking up SoG3 immediately after Gun Kata (and leaving Finesse and Whizkid for one level later) might serve you well. In fact, you may consider going for SoG3 even before or right after Dualgunner. Then again, on HNTR you might not gain enough experience to reach WK with such delaying.

Since you are a Scout, use your speed. Barons, for example, have 100% speed, and as such are actually slower than you are. With MGK, you can easily squeeze either a dualshot or a move between any of its actions without a chance to retaliate - so simply try to dodge until it moves or fires, then fire and dodge again until it moves or fires again. Aside from reloading and fighting in corridors, you should be quite safe.

Similar tactics would work against a mancubus, but this case you don't want it to fire at all. But - mancubi are really sluggish (80% speed). You can best deal with them at the edge of LOS - with MGK you can dualfire twice and then move out of its LOS. It should follow you immediately, so just dualfire twice again and move out. Rinse and repeat. If you need to reload, move out of its LOS first.

Revenants are _the_ bane of pistol runs. 50% bullet resistance with 2 armor on top make you really feel like pea-shooting. Those energy pistols you wanted to assemble would help immensely. Otherwise, with MGK you are still faster then revenants, so you cas use the same strategy as against mancubi - only with a single dualshot between moves, and never ever use the Wait command while standing against them.

Also, consider switching to running tactics when needed, especially before you acquire Dodgemaster. Your accuracy will take hit, but enemies' accuracy will take an even harder hit, and it allows for quicker repositioning, for examplne when you need to reload.

I hope we will see a YAVP post from you soon enough :).

[Sereg]

Cyberdemon a pushover with Dodgemaster? I'm not so sure I agree - I've gone silent on mortems lately because I've been stuck on Gatekeeper(still the easiest of my remaining Diamonds save the givens, Armorer and Technician), and the first time I got to him(with a damageless Anomaly of course), he walked up and melee'd me because I wasn't used to playing carefully against him - usually I just run up and chainsaw him =P The second time, today, I took two steps off the level entrance and walked right into a rocket, so there went that attempt. If I can avoid that, and play more carefully, it should be doable, but still... not exactly easy.

As far as pistols go, I also recommend an early SoG3, then Whizkid 1 ASAP for energy pistols, as they're much more effective against late game enemies. You're on the right track, but you do need a bit of luck for a pistol build to work out right.

Keep at it, and like Zicher said, hopefully we see YAVP from you soon ;)

[Tormuse]

Yeah, I don't know if "pushover" is the right word; few things are as tense as trying to do a damageless Cyberdemon using Dodgemaster, trying to carefully time and position every move so he never touches you.  (Especially right at the beginning of the level, when you haven't figured out where he is yet)  But yeah, Dodgemaster sure helps a lot, though.  :)

There really is an extreme lack of viable weapons for pistol builds, I've noticed...

Erm...  you mean speedloaders, high-power pistols, storm bolters, energy pistols, nanomachic pistols, and demolition pistols aren't enough for you?  Or for that matter, combat pistols, blasters, Triguns, Anti-Freak Jackals, and Grammaton Cleric Berrettas?  It seems to me that there are quite a lot of pistols available, no "extreme lack" by any stretch.  What more do you want?

Also, how you deal with Revenants and Mancubi? Both of them fire A LOT, do decent melee damage (the Revenant especially) and both have huge splash, leading to an impossible quest to dodge them. Just corner shoot? And if you don't have a corner, just slog it out and hope you win?

Yeah, don't even try to dodge them; corner-shoot if possible, or back away and try to deal with them one at a time, preferably from outside their visual range.  As ZicherCZ indicated, Revenants are a pain in the butt for AoMr.  One strategy I've used a few times when I was lucky enough to find armour that offers high melee protection, like ballistic armour/shield, or duelist armour, is to just close to point-blank range, (preferably by luring them around a blind corner) and let them pound on me with their now 1 damage melee attack while my pistol hits them harder.  (The ballistic armour assembly could be used for this purpose too)

[ZicherCZ]

Erm...  you mean speedloaders, high-power pistols, storm bolters, energy pistols, nanomachic pistols, and demolition pistols aren't enough for you?  Or for that matter, combat pistols, blasters, Triguns, Anti-Freak Jackals, and Grammaton Cleric Berrettas?  It seems to me that there are quite a lot of pistols available, no "extreme lack" by any stretch.  What more do you want?

Well, beside the first two options, which are readily available, but have their own drawbacks, the next four are limited by Whizkid requirement (and mods requirement for those master assemblies), and the rest of them are completely luck-based, with quite low generation weights on top. It's entirely possible to never find a single exotic/unique pistol throughout the whole game. Not an "extreme lack" of options, perhaps, but "lack" of options is a fair call.

Edit: Just by the way, Phobos Lab and Military Base both contain a guaranteed combat shotgun near the exit (and by the time you finish that, you usually have enough mods for a tactical shotgun). If, on AoMr, this combat shotgun would be replaced with a blaster (or perhaps even some chance of a combat pistol instead), that could be greatly helpful to the challenge.

[Moonshine Fox]

I already have a fair few wins under my belt, even on harder difficulties, but Pistols seem to be hitting me hard so far. Funnily enough I *think* my first win ever was a pistol build. But I don't remember. Anyways, I'll keep working and more importantly learning.

[Sereg]

A guaranteed pistol on some of the special levels would help, but I think another issue is that there's only one base pistol - everything else is exotic, unique, or an assembly. Shotguns have combat and double as non-exotic base items in addition to the regular shotgun, and even rapidfire has chain and plasma options, so yes, there is a bit of a disadvantage on the pistol side. It's also worth noting that there are somewhat significant drawbacks to the two basic assembly pistol options - it's rather telling that a pistol with a single T mod is more effective for Hell Arena(and much of the early game) then the Speedloader, for example.

I had a similar difficulty with pistol wins - I believe Marksman Platinum was my last(at least of the Platinums I've earned), and there was a reason it wasn't done sooner =P just keep at it, eventually you'll make it(at least, that's what I keep telling myself about this *damn* Gatekeeper Diamond challenge).

[Moonshine Fox]

I was surprised to find I had Gold Gatekeeper. I must've had an invul on me when I got down there, because I can't even imagine how to do the Lost Soul spam room without damage.

[Sereg]

I've been using a Fireangel build, but generally I only manage it when I get phase devices that land me in the portal room. It's a giant pain in the ass.

[ZicherCZ]

I was surprised to find I had Gold Gatekeeper. I must've had an invul on me when I got down there, because I can't even imagine how to do the Lost Soul spam room without damage.

Easily - there is no such room. Gatekeeper Gold requires you to kill Cybie damageless on HNTR+.Perhaps you have mistaken that for Gatekeeper Silver (damageless Anomaly on any difficulty, and there is no ambush on ITYTD)?

[Moonshine Fox]

Easily - there is no such room. Gatekeeper Gold requires you to kill Cybie damageless on HNTR+.Perhaps you have mistaken that for Gatekeeper Silver (damageless Anomaly on any difficulty, and there is no ambush on ITYTD)?

OOOOH. Yes, my mistake. Okay, damageless Cybie isn't undoable.

[Tormuse]

Well, beside the first two options, which are readily available, but have their own drawbacks...

It's also worth noting that there are somewhat significant drawbacks to the two basic assembly pistol options - it's rather telling that a pistol with a single T mod is more effective for Hell Arena(and much of the early game) then the Speedloader, for example.

What's all this talk about drawbacks to the speedloader pistol?  I love speedloader pistols!  When combined with SoG, you have fast firing and fast reloading, so not only can they dish out a lot of punishment very quickly, they can sustain that punishment over a long period of time.

Compare that to the high power pistol which dishes out harder punishment but only in short bursts with an uncomfortably long pause in between.  I'd take a speedloader over high power pistol any day.

Perhaps the drawback you mean is that it uses an agility mod?  Perhaps it's just a reflection of a difference in my playing style, but in my opinion, it's worth it.

[Moonshine Fox]

It's more a case of the fact that a T-modded pistol fires much faster than the Speedloader pistol, increasing your DPS and "free shots" before enemies get to act much more. With proper planning, reloading is usually not an issue, whereas firing time is.

[ZicherCZ]

What's all this talk about drawbacks to the speedloader pistol?  I love speedloader pistols!  When combined with SoG, you have fast firing and fast reloading, so not only can they dish out a lot of punishment very quickly, they can sustain that punishment over a long period of time.

Compare that to the high power pistol which dishes out harder punishment but only in short bursts with an uncomfortably long pause in between.  I'd take a speedloader over high power pistol any day.

Perhaps the drawback you mean is that it uses an agility mod?  Perhaps it's just a reflection of a difference in my playing style, but in my opinion, it's worth it.

All you say is true, no doubt about that. In and of itself, a speedloader is a straight upgrade.

IMHO though, the higher damage of a high power pistol outweighs the larger clip and faster reloading of a speedloader once you reach SoG3, since you kill weaker enemies faster, and against tougher (armored) enemies the damage per clip seems about the same.

There is, however, an even more significant advantage to the high power pistol - knockback chance. At SoG3, the chance is ~27% per shot, and even a single hit, which applies knockback and forces an enemy to do an extra move, more than erases the difference in reload times. Just for reference, a speedloader has no knockback chance at SoG3.

All of this is IMHO, and my point of view is skewed towards Sharpshooters. I just feel that I have been doing quite a bit better with high-powers than with speedloaders.

Edit: There is one more point to mention - since I rarely ever use Dualgunner, I'm used to carry another pistol in my prepared slot and instead of reloading, I switch to that. Reloading a high-power pistol takes 1.2s, reloading a speedloader takes 0.6s, and switching to prepared slot takes 0.8s, so such a switch works like a poor man's speedloader itself.

But woe betide me if I run out of ammo in both guns, or I forget to reload both of them between fights :).

[Sereg]

Perhaps the drawback you mean is that it uses an agility mod?  Perhaps it's just a reflection of a difference in my playing style, but in my opinion, it's worth it.

The drawback I meant is that adding the A mod negates the effects of the T mod, and just leaves you with a faster reload instead of faster firing time. Perhaps it works out to be better later in the game once you have more levels of SoG, because of diminishing returns on firing time, but I could never do Arena Gold in countless attempts making Speedloaders. Once I switched to T Mod only, I managed it numerous times while attempting Marksman Platinum - I grant there are other factors, like better skill builds and more familiarity with the tactics, but the mod choice definitely had an impact.

I also don't know all that much about high power pistols, but in general I've had less then impressive results from HP weapons other then with MAc builds which mitigate the big drawbacks(magazine capacity and reload time).