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[Baphomet]

Hi all,

yesterday and today I've spent some time to write a health trainer for DoomRL - my first try ever.

[Malek Deneith]

Bad Baphomet, bad Baphmet... Trainers are not nice... no cookies...

[DaEezT]

Bad Baphomet, bad Baphmet... Trainers are not nice... no cookies...

Wow, That was pretty ... civilized.
No cleansing fire or purifying flame? ;D

[RickVoid]

<Summon>RickVoid summons Ifrit</Summon>

<Ifrit>Ifrit simultaneously cooks, burn, frys, fricasee's, nukes, and burninates Baphomet.</Ifrit>

That enough holy flame for you, DaEezt?

[Malek Deneith]

Wow, That was pretty ... civilized.
No cleansing fire or purifying flame? ;D

I'm leaving that for Kornel - let the man have some fun on his own from time to time ;)

[Anticheese]

My conspiracy theory is that this Baphomet is actually Kornel trying to catch out those who would cheat, thus explaining the lack of action taken on this thread.

Of course..It's only a guess.

[Baphomet]

My conspiracy theory is that this Baphomet is actually Kornel [...]

Haha, I can promise you, I'm not Kornel - at least Kornel should know it.

In my opinion its a user decision to cheat or use such tools (and should not be blocked by the game author).

[Schluberlubs]

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/52034056/

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Ok, my few cents. It doesn't hurt anyone, AS LONG as cheaters don't mingle with serious players. And this WILL be a problem once a web scoreboard is present. What then, I ask you?

If I would have nothing against cheaters I'd leave IDDQD and IDKFA in the game :/.

[ssfsx17]

If you want a web scoreboard, you'll also want tools to examine the replays. All replays would also have to be run through your own copy of DoomRL or through someone else you trust. It basically boils down to whether you want to run a whole Compet-N for the DoomRL or not.

[Zeb]

If you want a web scoreboard, you'll also want tools to examine the replays. All replays would also have to be run through your own copy of DoomRL or through someone else you trust. It basically boils down to whether you want to run a whole Compet-N for the DoomRL or not.

Even then you'd have to create a seperate game mode in which you can't save or else people could savescum. :-/

[BDR]

Even then you'd have to create a seperate game mode in which you can't save or else people could savescum. :-/

Perhaps the web scoreboard would only apply to N!?  Accomplishments there would certainly be deserving of such a scoreboard, and there wouldn't need to be a seperate game mode.

[Anticheese]

Not really..Nightmare mode is intended to be incredibly hard and does not give everyone else (I'm an Ultra Violence man myself) the chance to have bragging rights..Besides, using a trainer would ruin it.

The nightmare scoreboard that is.

[BDR]

>_> I wasn't speaking about the trainer... figured that was an obvious no-no.  I was merely addressing the singular point Zeb made about needing a way to prevent saving; make it N! only at first and bam, you have a solution.

Of course, you're right that it doesn't allow for UV players or otherwise to get any glory.  But for that, you *would* need a seperate no-save mode.

[Firstblood]

Couldn't we have a "Hardcore" mode for any difficulty thats not Nightmare, that doesn't allow you to save, or a "Limited" mode that allows only one or two saves in total? maybe as command parameter if not as an option.

Could maybe throw in 10% extra ammo and xp as an incentive to get more people used to not save-scumming if they have time for a full game session as well. I never save-scum which is where the 2nd idea has come from.. also means that I die many times on AoB[UV] trying to kill as much as possible without dying, instead of evade until I get to the Chainsaw, but I actually find that fun because its (C)hallenging.

I can't wait until I've unlocked N!

[Zeb]

Games usually take about 3 hours anyway, so implementing a "tournament mode" that doesn't allow saving wouldn't be that big of a deal for players who wanted to compete. However, it is one more thing that Kornel would have to implement if he wanted a web scoreboard that wasn't easily cheatable.

Even with replays, people to watch replays, a serperate mode, and whatever else have you there would still be more ways to cheat the system if people really wanted to (And I'm sure someone would just to feel special). The only way to have a truly corruption-free high score list would be to host an entire DoomRL online server, and I doubt Kornel wishes to spend the time or resources for that, as cool as it would be.

[BDR]

Most people here (that post mortems and speak of playing) do not save-scum.  I have died many, many times for this reason, but because the time investment is so small compared to most 'normal' games that keep persistent saves I don't mind at all.  I don't really think people would need an incentive to play tournament mode... having your high score up for all the world fans of DoomRL to see on the semi-main website would probably be enough for those who'd play it.  I agree that no matter how hard anyone tries there's no real way to prevent cheating; the important part is being able to identify cheaters and to make it difficult enough that the majority of players won't bother trying to cheat.

[DaEezT]

I just wanted to say that, since DoomRL is a single player game, I do not care if other people cheat.

[Baphomet]

I'm trying to reach Kornel to discuss this issue...

[Zeb]

This topic is the fifth result on Google for "DoomRL". :-(

[Baphomet]

Talked with Kornel, hopefully it's clarified, and there is some progress going on...

[Gamera]

IDDQD should enable "God mode" meaning you have to be a god to survive it. IDKFA should make you drop all your ammo on the ground.

[Baphomet]

A version for 0.9.8.7 is available, but only after requesting it via personal message (or wait some days and visit the Dirty Little Helper)

[Potman]

IDDQD should enable "God mode" meaning you have to be a god to survive it. IDKFA should make you drop all your ammo on the ground.

Nah. I've got better ones:

IDKFA will give you all the weapons in the game, but at the same time all your ammo will be destroyed, there'll be no ammo generated during the entire game ever again, and all weapons and ammo found from enemies will turn to dust when you try to pick them up.
IDDQD will give you 200% life, but the enemy will also do fifty times more damage from now on.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Actually there was IDDQD and IDKFA in the game ;]

IDDQD gave you god mode ... for some time. When it weared off suddenly Hell Knights kept appearing out of nowhere :P.

IDKFA produced the following messages:
Suddenly you have the pistol!
Suddenly you have the shotgun!
Suddenly you have the double shotgun!
Suddenly you have the chaingun!
Suddenly you have the plasma rifle!
Suddenly you have the BFG!
Suddenly a TON of ammo falls on you!
You die...!

[Baphomet]

I've just updated the health freezer to work with 0.9.8.9.
Download

[jake250]

Thanks a lot. Lack of cheats sincerely hurt this game. I will never understand not having the option to cheat in a game. So many games are so badly hurt because of this, its incredible how much things I'd do with cheats. Best games are those I can play around and do whatever I want the most.

Same thing than "you can't save in nightmare mode". Pointless, lack of options that hurt more than it helps. My opinions of course, but since both world can exist as much as anything else I don't get the problem.

[Rabiat]

Same thing than "you can't save in nightmare mode". Pointless, lack of options that hurt more than it helps. My opinions of course, but since both world can exist as much as anything else I don't get the problem.

There's no problem in you cheating, there's a problem in you calling a fair challenge pointless.

If you get a kick out of burning ants with a magnifying glass, go right ahead. My respect goes to the ant that rips off your arm for trying to burn it. ;)

[Conker]

Thanks a lot. Lack of cheats sincerely hurt this game. I will never understand not having the option to cheat in a game. So many games are so badly hurt because of this, its incredible how much things I'd do with cheats. Best games are those I can play around and do whatever I want the most.

Same thing than "you can't save in nightmare mode". Pointless, lack of options that hurt more than it helps. My opinions of course, but since both world can exist as much as anything else I don't get the problem.

I was so sure you were being sarcastic till I read that second paragraph.

I can't believe people really feel that way, to be honest. Like... Anyone here ever played Resident Evil 4? You know there's a 'one hit kill machine gun', the Chicago Typewriter, that you can unlock? I unlocked that, and my first thought after trying it out was 'What the hell was the point of that? Now I can run through the game and there'll be no challenge whatsoever, and every enemy will die from a spray of bullets in their general direction. Oh yay for me'.

Same applies to this. If you remove all the challenge from a game, what's the point of playing it? Admittedly, exceptions exist - who doesn't love turning on 'All Weapons' in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas every once in a while and seeing how many cops we can kill before we die, how big an explosion we can make, etc. But... DoomRL isn't one of those exceptions.

[Baphomet]

Thanks a lot. Lack of cheats sincerely hurt this game. I will never understand not having the option to cheat in a game. So many games are so badly hurt because of this, its incredible how much things I'd do with cheats. Best games are those I can play around and do whatever I want the most.

I play nearly every games with enabled cheats (at least god mode on), or in other words: I don't like playing without them.

[jake250]

And what is wrong about removing Challenges? Sometimes, I want it. Sometimes, I don't.

First, I'm a skilled gamer. Not a pro, but skilled, naturally, without needing to train all day. But I have flaw, I fail to beat people that trains enough and I have specific kinds of game where I have more success than others (as is the case with most people I assume).

DoomRL is one of those I don't. Honestly I like the challenge here and there sometimes. Other time however, this is not what I want. I am also the kind of person to be rapidly frustrated with gaming. I know this and I stop playing when it gets on my nerve, which generally happens when I really "can't" do something. In a FPS, I would try again and would succeed at some point. But no matter how hard I tried here, I never succeeded.

Which brings me to the reason I cheat. If I just don't want to bother with the challenge, if I just want to have fun and be 100% sure the game will not frustrate me, I cheat. I have fun, yes sometimes less than actually completing a tough challenge, but I still have fun. And thats all I care about.

All games should have cheat, even for multiplayer LAN games (but of course not for multiplayer/recorded match, scoring, online leaderboards, anything like that). And thats why I think this game should have them as well. There is no reason to not give out more options like this or if there is, let me know.

[Papachabre]

This conversation was so titillating that I felt the need to create a user name here to add to it.  I think that cheaters should be allowed to play games.  I realize that the only way that some people get enjoyment out of video games is if they feel like they are all-powerful within the game.  Ultimately, though, it is up to the maker of the game to decide whether or not to allow legitimate cheats in the game (like a working IDDQD or IDKFA).  In DoomRL I would say allow these cheats and, to make spading more difficult, make it so that the moment these cheats are entered all unique items vanish from the game.  Allowing these cheats may also deter cheaters who make ridiculous scores on the proposed internet scoreboard because you could simply not include cheaters in the top scores...or you could give them their own scoreboard =D.  Then if they can simply type IDDQD to become invulnerable they may not go through all the trouble of making their own trainers.

Those are my two cents.

-PC

[jake250]

Uh, please, if there is any disadvantage to using cheat (removing unique items, for example), thats pointless, I'll just go and get a trainer then. That ruins the point.

Of course I wouldn't want my score to be registered then. But no disadvantage of that kind, thats ruining the point...

[tisiphone]

My two cent:

The way I see it, jake250’s argument (1) could be made for infinite reloading of save files too. After all it is an option and it would be up to the player do decide to use it or not. But being a weak willed person that I am I know for a fact that I will just never ever again be able to play the game in its full glory :(. I think the same applies to cheats mode that is easily activated.

Bottom-line, for me, is I’m glad DooMRL is cheat-free :)

(1) Cheating is an option: if you don’t want it, don’t use it (as I understand).

[Papachabre]

Uh, please, if there is any disadvantage to using cheat (removing unique items, for example), thats pointless, I'll just go and get a trainer then. That ruins the point.

Of course I wouldn't want my score to be registered then. But no disadvantage of that kind, thats ruining the point...

So...the point is to effortlessly discover every hidden detail of the game?  I mean, if you're invulnerable why does it matter if you use a unique weapon?  And if that's all you're interested in, why don't you just dig up some sort of spoiler or a list of weapons?  You could satisfy yourself by reading walkthroughs rather than playing games.  Perhaps reading a book would better suit you...or would an antagonist/protagonist conflict be too much for you?

Ooh, I have a great idea.  How about cheaters get a special weapon that kills all monsters in a level with one push of a button.  That'd remove all the hassle of actually playing the game.

[jake250]

Bother reading my post before. You don't get it, I won't write another resume just for you. As tisiphone said, cheating should be an option, and I honestly do not care if you can't understand the reasons I want cheats, but I already wrote all that in my previous post. While it would be a good thing for me and those who like to cheat, I don't see any bad side effect for those who don't want to cheat.

[Baphomet]

Some words about my trainer: it is not a generic one, it has to be adapted for every new released DoomRL version.
If Kornel starts a ladder system, league or whatever, the trainer will go private.

[Papachabre]

jake - I'm glad you don't care whether or not I understand your need to cheat; you shouldn't care about what some jerk on the internet thinks of you.  I was just trying to prove a point.  You said that you want to cheat because you want to play the game but not have a challenge, and I am saying that you can still do that with no unique items, so what does it matter to you whether or not you get them?  I think that removing them from games in which the player is cheating would give said player an incentive to play the game the way Kornel meant for it to be played.  He probably feels the same way about cheating in his game as Da Vinci would have felt if someone had gazed upon his Mona Lisa wearing 3-D glasses.

I do have to say though that I feel your pain.  I'm horrible at DoomRL and I can't beat the game for the life of me.  But I guess where we differ is that I don't need to complete the game to enjoy my time playing it...which is why I will now digress.  You're right; I don't understand why anyone would want to cheat at the game but I do still think that cheating should incur certain consequences.