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Author Topic: Wiki / game info?  (Read 7510 times)

Thelo

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Wiki / game info?
« on: September 08, 2019, 19:33 »

Hello, is there a wiki for Jupiter Hell, or a place where I can look up detailed info about the game?

I just played my first run and was specifically curious about what the various branches are. Callisto, Valhalla Terminal, Valhalla Command, Europa, Conamara Chaos Biolabs... I had various choices about where to go and was not sure how to choose.

(Unrelated, but hot damn, isn't a quintuple captcha on posting way overkill?)
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thelaptop

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Re: Wiki / game info?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2019, 03:46 »

(Unrelated, but hot damn, isn't a quintuple captcha on posting way overkill?)

Unfortunately, given the tools we have, that's the best we have to keep most of the spammers off the forum.  We used to be hit with at least one per 10 minutes.  This has dropped the numbers to nearly zero.

Rest assured, once you've posted enough, there's no need for all the crazy captcha-like things.
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khiijol

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Re: Wiki / game info?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2019, 05:40 »

from what i've seen, the special branches/levels so far are:

callisto:
mines -> anomaly (archreavers - substantially easier now that they don't spawn directly next to you)
valhalla terminal -> valhalla command (bots, now two military bots so greater chance they'll drop a useful mod)
no special branch -> military base (formers)

europa:
biolabs -> containment area (similar to anomaly)
dig zone -> tyre outpost (formers)
no special branch -> ?

io:
black site -> vaults (turrents + demons)
cri labs -> cri armory (a shitload of cri bots, would not recommend going here unless you have really powerful pierce weapons)
no special branch -> ?

beyond:
arena (small to heavy demons - no drops?)
limbo (vars demons)
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Dervis

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Re: Wiki / game info?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2019, 15:12 »

from what i've seen, the special branches/levels so far are:

callisto:
mines -> anomaly (archreavers - substantially easier now that they don't spawn directly next to you)
valhalla terminal -> valhalla command (bots, now two military bots so greater chance they'll drop a useful mod)
no special branch -> military base (formers)

europa:
biolabs -> containment area (similar to anomaly)
dig zone -> tyre outpost (formers)
no special branch -> ?

io:
black site -> vaults (turrents + demons)
cri labs -> cri armory (a shitload of cri bots, would not recommend going here unless you have really powerful pierce weapons)
no special branch -> ?

beyond:
arena (small to heavy demons - no drops?)
limbo (vars demons)
Military base has hellish soldiers not formers, you'll end up with some extra holes if you underestimate them. Nonetheless it has fixed spawns so you memorize where each one is and it makes it easy. Good place to pick up a Chaingun or 7.62 rifle if you haven't already.

Main europa special level is Refueling base. It has chaingun ravagers and archreavers and a guaranteed tech station besides 4 or 5 boxes.

Cri armory is rough with the CRI bots ambushes, if you can manage it though you'll have your pick of a bunch of exotic weapons and the CRI armor.

Main Io branch special level is the Io Warehouse. Reavers, Archreavers, and 10 boxes, 2 of each kind I think.

Arena has 3 waves of enemies. x fire fiends, x-1 archreavers and x-2 siege ravagers. It spawns a portal to the last level in the middle at the end.
Limbo just has a bunch of archreavers and 4 or 5 boxes.
The entire Beyond area is a work in progress so it might change significantly in the future.

Callisto transition level is Valhalla Space Station. Known for sometimes having security bots everywhere and the occasional former heavy, so beware those rockets. 1 guaranteed med box + common box.
Europa transition level is Europa Central Dig. Mostly fixed layout with fixed enemies (fire fiends, archreavers, armored ravagers) although they wander around, no loot whatsoever.
Io transition level is Io Gateway, fixed layout with lots of unavoidable fights featuring CRI bots, archreavers and armored ravagers. 2 med boxes and 2 ammo boxes.
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Wiki / game info?
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2019, 05:31 »

So, no wiki atm ?
All I found was the "Fandom" one https://jupiterhell.fandom.com/wiki  (quite ugly and messy to me, I'm really not fan of those).

Would hosting one (more) wiki here on Chaosforge require much efforts or costs ?
I'd really love an equivalent of what we have for DoomRL.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Wiki / game info?
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2019, 08:54 »

There's already a wiki set up, but we didn't even have time to skin it from the default MediaWiki skin. We're spread thin here, but I'll try to find time for that :/
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Sereg

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Re: Wiki / game info?
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2019, 01:56 »

I'm not especially familiar with the Fandom wiki system, although I am aware of it... would this be a project that could benefit from volunteer effort, like the original wiki?

Edit: I mean as far as skinning it and other such behind-the-scenes customizations - obviously as a wiki, the fanbase is already empowered to update it in the more obvious fashion.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2019, 01:57 by Sereg »
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Wiki / game info?
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2019, 08:03 »

Quote
There's already a wiki set up, but we didn't even have time to skin it from the default MediaWiki skin. We're spread thin here, but I'll try to find time for that :/
Ouch :p
Maybe it could be opened as-is, then ?  Well, I guess you prefer "releasing" a polished wiki rather than an "early-access" one ?

Meh, I'm looking forward to it... but also (very) patient, so go at your pace.

--
Thinking about it, why it matters so much to me is essentially because "try&die" quickly becomes frustrating.
I love having to make decisions/sacrifices and fully assume my choices, but one can't take wise decisions without knowledge (reminds me of my first runs in UC x_+. If only some message did warn me...)
Having to gratuitously suffer for every piece of knowledge is tiresome, but as long as the games gives the player enough infos (i.e. transparency about damages/speed systems, items effects... and challenges to expect), dying quickly improves from painful to plain fun.

So, while a wiki is a good place to learn things and avoid having too much bad surprises, imo, facing the bad surprises is even sweeter... providing it gives more fun than frustrations.
Dying is fun when it's you fault (or just a rare bad RNG), but not when it's just because you have to grind & restart until you know every pitfall.

For this reason, after some runs reaching IO, and an absurd death vs a group of exalted velociraptors (had found no phase, btw), I quickly started to save scum a bit... and didn't stop until I reached & killed the summoner.
And because thats not the way I like to play, I'll risk giving you the truit to slap me, and will suggest to add some nerfed "scummable" save system to JH. (alias, saves not cleared when used).
Of course, this doesn't look much compatible with permadeath at first glance, but I think it actually is, if done properly.

The purpose is NOT to let one get any "achievement", but to explore and understand the game.

Some examples of cool systems enabling such exploration:

-Angband's "Allow player to avoid death" option lets you play in real conditions, just without having to redo everything if your Lvl45 char dies to some unknown threat
-Tourist difficulty, in "Serious Sam", gives you hp (& maybe ammo) regen.  A funny way to explore the game for one not wanting challenge.
(This reminds me DoomRL GOT his Tourist module !  Which was a great way to learn the backside of the game & levels, and gave me the idea to rocket-call the AM in CC)
-N64 Goldeneye / Perfect dark featured "cheat options", unlockable by beating some challenges (in their case, completing some level under some time)
-Also, Soldier of fortune's save system was interesting, compared to Doom or Quake: in easy, you had several saves per mission (level), and in hard, maybe one.  In what I'd call UV, you had none.

I know all this might look in opposition with our vision of permadeath, but I think permadath's goal is to have people assume their choices & mistakes (or life's bad luck).
I don't see any point in killing characters in a "try & die" way just because they were not aware of some trap, like in the current military base (where using a smoke before walking the ambush-step makes all the difference... providing you know what happens when you walk tile X)

In JH, loading without destroying the save could really be an option.
If it was me, I think I'd allow this at game start (call it military simulator :p), just disabling any achievement/victory onbtained for such a run (and probably advertising "What you could have got", instead).

In fact, this approach seems way better to me than having to check the wiki/forums, mainly because it needs the player to find his own way with his own perceptions, rather than copying the way other people play.
For me, wiki/debug modules are mainly useful once you know most of the game aspects, so that you can discover things you didn't notice yet. (I didn't open any binding of Isaac wiki before I beat the game a *lot* of times)

« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 11:17 by Evilpotatoe »
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Sereg

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Re: Wiki / game info?
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2019, 18:33 »

As another example of non-permadeath mechanics in a roguelike game, consider TomeNET. It divides players into two groups(there are further distinctions, but two major classifications): Everlasting and Unworldly. Everlasting players are allowed to instantly respawn following a death, but still face penalties in experience loss and potential item loss, whereas Unworldly players die permanently and completely. However, Everlasting players are completely separate from the game's high scores, and even have a separate system of titles for winning the game - that is, all meaningful achievements as far as the game is concerned are restricted to Unworldly characters.

As an MMO, items can be traded between different characters, but they are firmly divided along these lines - that is, Unworldly players cannot use items found, purchased, or otherwise generated by Everlasting characters, and vice versa. This means that players can't use an Everlasting character to jumpstart an Unworldly character, for example, which preserves the integrity of the Unworldly achievements.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 18:40 by Sereg »
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Wiki / game info?
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2019, 09:58 »

Due to the fact that JH has limited enemies and no way to "grind" any penalty after death except death means that the game becomes harder. The other issue here is that while JH's objective is to be the most approachable roguelike, it's second objective is to be roguelike to the bone. We want to teach people the roguelike way, but we want them also to accept the genre's ideology. I want to balance Easy and provide enough info to the player, not make a "tourist mode". Not to mention that many people that try such a mode come to the false assumption that the game is boring, just because it was designed with permadeath in mind.

As for the Wiki issue - we'll talk with the team about it tomorrow, and try to get something running before Christmas. One thing to note is that I'd like to make it so that all the info you need to beat the game on Easy should be accessible from the game - hence we wont have Assemblies for example. If any more info like that is needed to be wikified it's worth wondering whether it should be in the game itself in the first place.
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