Jupiter Hell > General Discussion

Wiki / game info?

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Kornel Kisielewicz:
There's already a wiki set up, but we didn't even have time to skin it from the default MediaWiki skin. We're spread thin here, but I'll try to find time for that :/

Sereg:
I'm not especially familiar with the Fandom wiki system, although I am aware of it... would this be a project that could benefit from volunteer effort, like the original wiki?

Edit: I mean as far as skinning it and other such behind-the-scenes customizations - obviously as a wiki, the fanbase is already empowered to update it in the more obvious fashion.

Evilpotatoe:

--- Quote ---There's already a wiki set up, but we didn't even have time to skin it from the default MediaWiki skin. We're spread thin here, but I'll try to find time for that :/
--- End quote ---
Ouch :p
Maybe it could be opened as-is, then ?  Well, I guess you prefer "releasing" a polished wiki rather than an "early-access" one ?

Meh, I'm looking forward to it... but also (very) patient, so go at your pace.

--
Thinking about it, why it matters so much to me is essentially because "try&die" quickly becomes frustrating.
I love having to make decisions/sacrifices and fully assume my choices, but one can't take wise decisions without knowledge (reminds me of my first runs in UC x_+. If only some message did warn me...)
Having to gratuitously suffer for every piece of knowledge is tiresome, but as long as the games gives the player enough infos (i.e. transparency about damages/speed systems, items effects... and challenges to expect), dying quickly improves from painful to plain fun.

So, while a wiki is a good place to learn things and avoid having too much bad surprises, imo, facing the bad surprises is even sweeter... providing it gives more fun than frustrations.
Dying is fun when it's you fault (or just a rare bad RNG), but not when it's just because you have to grind & restart until you know every pitfall.

For this reason, after some runs reaching IO, and an absurd death vs a group of exalted velociraptors (had found no phase, btw), I quickly started to save scum a bit... and didn't stop until I reached & killed the summoner.
And because thats not the way I like to play, I'll risk giving you the truit to slap me, and will suggest to add some nerfed "scummable" save system to JH. (alias, saves not cleared when used).
Of course, this doesn't look much compatible with permadeath at first glance, but I think it actually is, if done properly.

The purpose is NOT to let one get any "achievement", but to explore and understand the game.

Some examples of cool systems enabling such exploration:

-Angband's "Allow player to avoid death" option lets you play in real conditions, just without having to redo everything if your Lvl45 char dies to some unknown threat
-Tourist difficulty, in "Serious Sam", gives you hp (& maybe ammo) regen.  A funny way to explore the game for one not wanting challenge.
(This reminds me DoomRL GOT his Tourist module !  Which was a great way to learn the backside of the game & levels, and gave me the idea to rocket-call the AM in CC)
-N64 Goldeneye / Perfect dark featured "cheat options", unlockable by beating some challenges (in their case, completing some level under some time)
-Also, Soldier of fortune's save system was interesting, compared to Doom or Quake: in easy, you had several saves per mission (level), and in hard, maybe one.  In what I'd call UV, you had none.

I know all this might look in opposition with our vision of permadeath, but I think permadath's goal is to have people assume their choices & mistakes (or life's bad luck).
I don't see any point in killing characters in a "try & die" way just because they were not aware of some trap, like in the current military base (where using a smoke before walking the ambush-step makes all the difference... providing you know what happens when you walk tile X)

In JH, loading without destroying the save could really be an option.
If it was me, I think I'd allow this at game start (call it military simulator :p), just disabling any achievement/victory onbtained for such a run (and probably advertising "What you could have got", instead).

In fact, this approach seems way better to me than having to check the wiki/forums, mainly because it needs the player to find his own way with his own perceptions, rather than copying the way other people play.
For me, wiki/debug modules are mainly useful once you know most of the game aspects, so that you can discover things you didn't notice yet. (I didn't open any binding of Isaac wiki before I beat the game a *lot* of times)

Sereg:
As another example of non-permadeath mechanics in a roguelike game, consider TomeNET. It divides players into two groups(there are further distinctions, but two major classifications): Everlasting and Unworldly. Everlasting players are allowed to instantly respawn following a death, but still face penalties in experience loss and potential item loss, whereas Unworldly players die permanently and completely. However, Everlasting players are completely separate from the game's high scores, and even have a separate system of titles for winning the game - that is, all meaningful achievements as far as the game is concerned are restricted to Unworldly characters.

As an MMO, items can be traded between different characters, but they are firmly divided along these lines - that is, Unworldly players cannot use items found, purchased, or otherwise generated by Everlasting characters, and vice versa. This means that players can't use an Everlasting character to jumpstart an Unworldly character, for example, which preserves the integrity of the Unworldly achievements.

Kornel Kisielewicz:
Due to the fact that JH has limited enemies and no way to "grind" any penalty after death except death means that the game becomes harder. The other issue here is that while JH's objective is to be the most approachable roguelike, it's second objective is to be roguelike to the bone. We want to teach people the roguelike way, but we want them also to accept the genre's ideology. I want to balance Easy and provide enough info to the player, not make a "tourist mode". Not to mention that many people that try such a mode come to the false assumption that the game is boring, just because it was designed with permadeath in mind.

As for the Wiki issue - we'll talk with the team about it tomorrow, and try to get something running before Christmas. One thing to note is that I'd like to make it so that all the info you need to beat the game on Easy should be accessible from the game - hence we wont have Assemblies for example. If any more info like that is needed to be wikified it's worth wondering whether it should be in the game itself in the first place.

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