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Author Topic: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum  (Read 4949 times)

iainuki

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[U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
« on: April 06, 2020, 17:41 »

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (0.9.9.7) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Iainuki, level 24 Demon 2nd Lieutenant Scout,
 completed 100 levels of torture on level 100 of Hell.
 He survived 493203 turns and scored 2389449 points.
 He played for 4 days, 9 hours, 11 minutes and 8 seconds.
 He was a man of Ultra-Violence!

 He killed 4021 out of 4054 hellspawn. (99%)
 He was a real killing machine...
 He was an Angel of 100!

 He saved himself 9 times.

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 0
  Levels visited   : 0
  Levels completed : 0

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  UAC Star (silver cluster)
  Experience Medal
  Centurial Bronze Badge
  Centurial Silver Badge
  Centurial Gold Badge
  Centurial Platinum Badge

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  #===^==================================================}|==
  #===##====================================================|
  #===##===================================================}=
  #====================#=========#================}|======}|=
  #===##=##============##====================================
  #=0=##=##===##X===================}=#/#=####===#########/##
  #=========|=============================|==========/=======
  #======================================}===========#===}|==
  #========================#}========#0=========}====#=======
  ####+#+########}=========[}=}=================|====#=======
  #=======0=======}=========|========/===============#=======
  #====0=======##|===============/========################/=#
  #;=======##==##==========/================}================
  #========##======================================##===}==\=
  #=##=##=====#==================|========##==##===##=##=##==
  #=##=##=====#========================}#=##==##======##=##==
  #========================/=========/===============|=======
  #================================================^=}=======
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 70/70   Experience 844214/24
  ToHit Ranged +4  ToHit Melee +4  ToDmg Ranged +5  ToDmg Melee +5

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Scout

    Ironman          (Level 2)
    Finesse          (Level 3)
    Hellrunner       (Level 3)
    Son of a bitch   (Level 5)
    Eagle Eye        (Level 2)
    Juggler          (Level 1)
    Dodgemaster      (Level 1)
    Intuition        (Level 2)
    Whizkid          (Level 2)
    Triggerhappy     (Level 2)
    Cateye           (Level 1)

  Int->Int->SoB->Fin->Iro->Fin->WK->WK->SoB->TH->MCe->Jug->SoB->SoB->SoB->HR->HR->DM->Fin->EE->HR->TH->EE->Iro->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   cerberus onyx armor [2] (P)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   minigun (1d7)x8 [200/200] (P1T2)
    [c] [ Boots      ]   cerberus acid-proof boots [0/0] (100%) (A)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   hyperblaster (2d4)x5 [40/40] (F1)

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] plasmatic combat shotgun (8d3) [5/5] (P1)
    [b] tactical rocket launcher (6d6) [5/5] (T1)
    [c] assault plasma rifle (2d6)x3 [40/40]
    [d] plasma rifle (1d7)x6 [73/88] (B3)
    [e] burst plasma rifle (1d10)x8 [80/80] (P1)
    [f] assault shotgun (9d3) [6/6] (P2T3)
    [g] super shotgun (10d4)x2 [2/2] (P2)
    [h] VBFG9000 (10d8) [95/195] (B1)
    [i] Jackhammer (8d3)x3 [9/9]
    [j] fireproof red armor [6/6] (100%) (P)
    [k] fire shield [4/4] (200%)
    [l] phaseshift armor [4/4] (100%) (AP)
    [m] Malek's Armor [3/3] (100%)
    [n] shotgun shell (x50)
    [o] shotgun shell (x32)
    [p] large med-pack
    [q] large med-pack
    [r] large med-pack
    [s] homing phase device
    [t] phaseshift boots [4/4] (100%) (A)
    [u] shell box (x100)
    [v] power battery (x120)

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    Acid       - internal 0%    torso 70%   feet 100%
    Fire       - internal 0%    torso 70%   feet 100%
    Plasma     - internal 0%    torso 50%   feet 0%   

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    246 former humans
    398 former sergeants
    548 former captains
    171 imps
    69 demons
    247 lost souls
    73 cacodemons
    142 hell knights
    528 barons of hell
    172 arachnotrons
    10 former commandos
    27 pain elementals
    234 revenants
    360 mancubi
    376 arch-viles
    64 nightmare imps
    74 nightmare cacodemons
    136 nightmare demons
    49 nightmare arachnotrons
    9 nightmare arch-viles
    4 elite former humans
    7 elite former sergeants
    4 elite former captains
    5 elite former commandos
    43 bruiser brothers
    11 shamblers
    2 lava elemental
    7 agony elementals
    5 Cyberdemons

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  On level 12 he assembled a tactical shotgun!
  On level 12 he assembled a gatling gun!
  On level 12 he assembled a fireproof armor!
  On level 12 he assembled a plasmatic shrapnel!
  On level 21 he assembled a tactical boots!
  On level 21 he assembled a tactical rocket launcher!
  On level 21 he assembled a focused double shotgun!
  On level 25 he found the Jackhammer!
  On level 26, hell froze over!
  On level 28 he stumbled into a nightmare demon cave!
  On level 29 he assembled a hyperblaster!
  On level 34 he found the Malek's Armor!
  On level 35 he assembled a burst cannon!
  On level 36 he ran for his life from lava!
  On level 38 he assembled a cerberus boots!
  Level 42 was a hard nut to crack!
  Level 45 blasted him with an unholy atmosphere!
  On level 47 he stumbled into a nightmare arachnotron cave!
  On level 50 he found the Anti-Freak Jackal!
  On level 55 he ran for his life from acid!
  On level 58 he assembled a cerberus armor!
  Level 60 was a hard nut to crack!
  Level 64 was a hard nut to crack!
  On level 65 he stumbled into a nightmare demon cave!
  On level 66 he ran for his life from acid!
  On level 73 he stumbled into a nightmare demon cave!
  On level 77 he found the Frag Shotgun!
  On level 78 he was walking in fire!
  On level 78 he found the Revenant's Launcher!
  On level 83 he assembled a VBFG9000!
  On level 89 he ran for his life from lava!
  On level 90, hell froze over!
  On level 95 he assembled a fire shield!
  Level 96 was a hard nut to crack!
  On level 98 he assembled a assault rifle!
  On level 100 he finally completed 100 levels of torture.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 Run - direction...
 Run - direction...
 Run - direction...
 Run - direction...
 There is a chaingun (1d6)x4 [40/40] lying here.
 It doesn't seem to move there.
 Run - direction...
 It doesn't seem to move there.
 There is a pistol (2d4) [0/6] lying here.
 There is shotgun shell (x13) lying here.
 There is shotgun shell (x13) lying here.
 There are stairs leading downward here.
 You did it! You completed 100 levels of DoomRL! You're the champion! Press
 <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 1040 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 962 of those were killed.
 1 of those was killed by something unknown.
 9 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
 And 56 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 12 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 10 killed the bitch and survived.
 2 showed that it can outsmart Hell itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------

LuckyDee on the quick questions thread suggested that Centurial Platinum ought to be a relatively reliable badge if I could confidently play Ultra Violent, and at this point I can, so I did.  I played my standard hybrid shotgun/rapid-fire build aiming for Cat-Eye.  As usual, I detoured to Intuition 2 (why wouldn't you since Cat-Eye takes Intuition 1) and Whizkid 2 (This is Ao100).  The early first level of Ironman was a misclick that delayed key things.  After that, I went for Juggler, which if you have Finesse and are running are a generalist build I've found to be very helpful (and it's Tormuse approved!).  Then, I maxed out SoB because it helped ammo efficiency (a big concern) and damage on both my rapid-fire weapons and my shotguns.  After that, I finally went for defense, first Hell Runner and Dodgemaster, then more offense with Finesse, Eagle Eye (I was using a hyperblaster and shotguns for offense for most of this, and even at max Cat-Eye range a hyperblaster hits at like 62%), and eventually Hell Runner, Trigger Happy, and Ironman.

Level 12 gave me four modpacks, enough to finish four key items, a tactical shotgun, fireproof red armor, gatling gun, and plasmatic shrapnel combat shotgun.  Even on Ultra Violent, corpse disposal is invaluable just to nerf arch-viles.  Because I wasn't going to have Reloader, the ability to reload quickly for disposal was important, so a combat shotgun it was.  I P-modded it and ended up using it a fair amount for combat anyways because plasma works better against enemies with armor or to destroy monsters' cover without destroying items.  I P-modded the fireproof red armor when I could.  It would serve me until I managed to P-mod the cerberus onyx armor: without the extra 2 protection, I needed the 6 protection on the fireproof red armor against sergeants and captains.  I P-modded all my primary weapons, like all my tactical shotgun, to save ammo.  I T-modded the gatling gun, which I had abundant ammo for, to save on P mods.

I tried to avoid carrying 10 mm down stairs, only keeping the gatling gun and, eventually, replacing it with the minigun in the mortem.  I used the 10 mm bullets to save on shells and cells.  On at least one occasion in the 20s, I actually ran out of everything but 10 mm ammo and was relying on the gatling gun.

I found a super shotgun on the same level as I finished the focused double shotgun, so I left the focused double shotgun behind.  The wiki's advice on the super shotgun vs. the focused double shotgun is slightly out of date (in 0.9.9.7 the focused double shotgun is not statistically superior to the super shotgun), the super shotgun's advantage is moddability and other assemblies.  I never found a nanopack to make a nanoshrapnel supershotgun, and I could have done other things with one, so in retrospect, I should have kept the focused double shotgun because I could use Juggler with it, as it's a situational weapon.

The Jackhammer on the other hand was a good find.  The wiki talks it down, but for a character with SoB and Trigger Happy, it solves a very important problem: coming down the stairs next to a pack of dangerous demons.  If there isn't a wall behind the enemies, the Jackhammer's extraordinary knockback will kick them so far back they won't see me any more.  If there is a wall, well, there isn't another weapon that can do this:

Code: [Select]
------------------------------ Past messages viewer -------------------- 100% --
   ^                                                                        ^   
 You enter Hell, level 83.                                                     
 You see a combat knife (2d5) [2n].                                             
 You open the door.                                                             
 Fire -- Choose target...                                                       
 You see : an arch-vile (unhurt) | floor | [m]ore                               
 Targeting canceled.                                                           
 Fire -- Choose target...                                                       
 You see : an arch-vile (unhurt) | floor | [m]ore                               
 The arch-vile dies.                                                           
 Fire -- Choose target...                                                       
 You see : pool of blood                                                       
 Targeting canceled.                                                           
 Fire -- Choose target...                                                       
 You see : pool of blood                                                       
 The arch-vile dies. The baron of hell dies. The baron of hell dies. The baron 
 of hell dies.                                                                 
 You reload the Jackhammer.                                                     

On an early cave, I saw the Trigun on another side of a lava river but I was sufficiently short of health that I didn't want to risk crossing to try to get it.  There were also some demons over there, which killed my 100% chances.  Of course, a couple of levels later, I ended up surrounded on three sides by arch-viles with barons of hell destroying my cover, so I had to homing phase device out.  The last level I had to leave for fear I'd die was the nightmare arachnotron cave on 47.  I started with an invulnerability globe and an energy shield, but I ended up on the downstairs with three nightmare arachnotrons next to me, with their melee attacks shredding the energy shield and no way to get to the cells the arachnotrons I'd killed had dropped.

I made a cerberus armor out of onyx armor because that's what I found first, though I later saw a gothic armor.  I don't know how much better the indestructibility is than the 50% resistance to melee/bullets/shrapnel, as that was a significant liability.  I found a phase shift armor fairly early, but I preferred to keep its movement bonus.  Later I found the boots to accompany it.  I also used Malek's a fair bit early but not at all later.  The firestorm modpack on the hyperblaster came reasonably early, before floor 40, and I thought making an extremely powerful weapon was the best use rather than an assembly.

Most of the junk you see in my inventory in the mortem was me cleaning up assemblies I hadn't made yet, finding ways to store more cells, or both.  If the onyx pack hadn't showed up on floor 90 or so, I would have put it on the phase shift armor but instead I just made the useless fire shield assembly to make sure it doesn't show up as schematics.

This was pleasantly more strategic than a normal game, but also really long.  The Cat-Eye build I ran with was quite strong but also required paying attention, if I ever do this again I'm going to have to figure out if I can make a character where I don't actually have to pay attention while I'm playing.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 13:50 by iainuki »
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Sereg

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Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2020, 18:46 »

Here's one of my old ones where I was able to roll through pretty easily.

I've always been a fan of Ammochain builds - ammo management becomes a lot easier when you're only expending one round per burst, and that solves one of the biggest challenges of Ao100.

Another thing I've been a long time fan of is Ao100, so congratulations on the Platinum(and all lower) Badges. UV can be rough getting started, especially without good luck on assemblies/artifacts.

And you're right about the Jackhammer - it's great for both area knockback, and shredding groups of high level enemies, as you've demonstrated. Easily one of my favorite artifacts, especially with a build that synergizes well with it.

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ih8regin

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Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2020, 22:40 »

Note for the future - nightmare arachnotrons can shoot in melee range, so they were likely perforating you instead of hitting with melee. This makes them the worst opponents in AoB or melee runs.
Also I'm not sure why maxing SoB - you'll get increasing knockback chances with rapid fire, mostly moving your target off the line of fire. This helps shotguns, sure, but works worse for whatever shoots more than once and does not cover an area. I'd rather amp EE instead of SoB at level 13, since more frequent hits at full distance really mean saving ammo.
One trick with Juggler: you can use an exotic weapon of any kind as a prepared weapon in order to switch to it instantly, so you for example could store there a super shotgun or a Jackhammer, swapping for a hyperblaster with a 8 key, since an assembly still counts as a base gun type when selecting by keys.
And finally, how come your Ao100 lasted 4 DAYS?! This timer only counts in-game elapsed time, so you really had to spend over a hundred hours on that game. And it says you saved several times. Saving more than once is normal, but 4 days with saving? REALLY? For records, my only UV Ao100 run took 9 hours of elapsed time and a single save.
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0.9.9.7: badges [21|17|17|10|1|wow,1], quest: UV each challenge (9/16)

Sereg

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Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2020, 23:43 »

Some players do idle with the game running - it's not strictly necessary below N!, but that doesn't mean there aren't valid reasons for it to occur, especially if you're multitasking, running DoomRL between other tasks when the focus required isn't quite enough to justify completely logging out.

But your comment on time got me curious, and I went browsing the Century Lounge archives... my own Medium ArchAo666 YAAM took nine hours, and ZicherCZ managed it on Ultraviolence in three and a half days.

And now I'm tempted to try for a 100% Centurial Angelic run, just for "fun", but unfortunately my profile is on a computer that isn't easily accessible to me in the near future... nor have I ever really even come close to a N! 666 run. My Dervis' Medallion was a melee stairdive(Edit: and I apparently did it in under an hour, with a Minor Icarus Cross to boot) - to replicate even those first 100 levels going for 100% would be much more difficult, to say nothing of extremely tedious =P

Who knows, maybe Tormuse will eventually post such a mortem, though. He has a habit of doing insane things like that...
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 23:52 by Sereg »
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Cyberdemon Chaos Colonel

Medals - DRL 27/43 | XA 16/31

iainuki

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Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2020, 13:42 »

Note for the future - nightmare arachnotrons can shoot in melee range, so they were likely perforating you instead of hitting with melee. This makes them the worst opponents in AoB or melee runs.

That does explain it, thanks.  That's a good thing to know for future runs.

Also I'm not sure why maxing SoB - you'll get increasing knockback chances with rapid fire, mostly moving your target off the line of fire. This helps shotguns, sure, but works worse for whatever shoots more than once and does not cover an area. I'd rather amp EE instead of SoB at level 13, since more frequent hits at full distance really mean saving ammo.

If I had it to do over again, I'd probably advance EE sooner.  (Also, not accidentally getting Ironman so early would have helped.)  I was checking the combat logs, though, and missing was not that big a problem with the hyperblaster.  I missed a fair amount with the gatling gun, but I didn't care because I had more than enough ammo for it.  I didn't notice many enemies getting knocked out of my line of fire?

And finally, how come your Ao100 lasted 4 DAYS?! This timer only counts in-game elapsed time, so you really had to spend over a hundred hours on that game. And it says you saved several times. Saving more than once is normal, but 4 days with saving? REALLY? For records, my only UV Ao100 run took 9 hours of elapsed time and a single save.

Forgetfulness :).  I left the game running overnight at least twice because I forgot to save before bed, then didn't come back to it until the next evening.  I also left it running while doing things like cooking and eating dinner because I was having trouble deciding what to keep and what to drop in my inventory, and I couldn't save before making that decision.  You do these things a few times and it starts to add up.  The game took more than a week to play.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 13:04 by iainuki »
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iainuki

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Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2020, 14:47 »

But your comment on time got me curious, and I went browsing the Century Lounge archives... my own Medium ArchAo666 YAAM took nine hours, and ZicherCZ managed it on Ultraviolence in three and a half days.

Personally I wouldn't have been able to finish this run in one session, even if I hadn't left the game running over night by accident.  I don't have that kind of stamina.  A Nightmare run in one session would be right out.

And now I'm tempted to try for a 100% Centurial Angelic run, just for "fun", but unfortunately my profile is on a computer that isn't easily accessible to me in the near future... nor have I ever really even come close to a N! 666 run. My Dervis' Medallion was a melee stairdive(Edit: and I apparently did it in under an hour, with a Minor Icarus Cross to boot) - to replicate even those first 100 levels going for 100% would be much more difficult, to say nothing of extremely tedious =P

Who knows, maybe Tormuse will eventually post such a mortem, though. He has a habit of doing insane things like that...

This might be more doable than you think.  The brutal part would be the beginning, it would be just as hard to get it started as any other early Nightmare challenge.  Assuming you survived that, the one thing that you have in Ao100 in abundance is rockets, so disposing of lots of corpses is doable.  Eventually you'd hope to find a sniper modpack or at least a firestorm modpack (for demolition ammo), or one of the exotics/uniques that blows up corpses, but until then, I suspect rockets would suffice.  Once you have reliable corpse destruction N! is not much worse than UV.
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Sereg

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Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2020, 16:25 »

Nightmare! has a lot of ways to generate really nasty situations way earlier than you are prepared to handle them. Yeah, the beginning would definitely be rough, but even getting through that, you could easily spawn into a floor that might barely offer the opportunity for survival, much less safe clearing - and some don't even offer that. The Inquisitor set would almost be a must have, since I don't know another way to handle Cyberdemon caves, and Nightmare Arachnotron caves or shambler caves could still ruin the run.

Keep in mind most N! Centurial runs, whether 666 or merely the base 100, rely on finding an exit ASAP and getting the hell on to the next floor... *not* setting up for a clear.

On top of that, it's 666 floors of no saving. Imagine making it down to floor 500, calling it a night, and forgetting your computer had an automatic restart planned =P

Centurial Angelic is doable, if only with great luck, skill, and persistence. The requirements for Centurial Angelic with Prejudice are far steeper - but possibly still achievable, if only by an extremely skilled player with absurdly good luck - which is why I put forth the name I did, since he seems to fulfil those conditions.
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Cyberdemon Chaos Colonel

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ZicherCZ

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Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2020, 10:57 »

Just for the record - that ArchAo666 UV YAAM run of mine was also full of D***RL running idle, "real" playtime would amount to some 50 hours, give or take some. The run from start to end took me slightly over a month, usually playing no more than 20-ish levels per session. Sometimes only two or three.

<SharpshooterCommercial>
But in the end it paid. Sharpshooters rock even in marathon runs! :)
</SharpshooterCommercial>
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 11:05 by ZicherCZ »
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iainuki

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Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2020, 13:29 »

Nightmare! has a lot of ways to generate really nasty situations way earlier than you are prepared to handle them. Yeah, the beginning would definitely be rough, but even getting through that, you could easily spawn into a floor that might barely offer the opportunity for survival, much less safe clearing - and some don't even offer that. The Inquisitor set would almost be a must have, since I don't know another way to handle Cyberdemon caves, and Nightmare Arachnotron caves or shambler caves could still ruin the run.

Keep in mind most N! Centurial runs, whether 666 or merely the base 100, rely on finding an exit ASAP and getting the hell on to the next floor... *not* setting up for a clear.

I encountered the nightmare arachnotron cave on 47, which is close to as early as it's possible to get one.  (43, if I'm reading the wiki correctly and its information is up to date, I haven't looked at the code for this section myself.)  I killed about one half arc of arachnotrons before I had to flee, and I assumed that part of this was because of my newness and relative incompetence.  (I ran out of plasma cells because of bad ammo management, my weapons and traits weren't particularly optimized, I didn't have back up armor for when the energy shield fell apart, and so on.)  The rest of it was that I wasn't actually committed to fighting it out: rather than standing and fighting where I'd landed, I wasted some actions moving to the up stairs, which were in an open area in the center of the cavern.  If I'd wanted to maximize my odds of clearing it, I would have tried to find reduce the damage I was taking at the cost of maybe not making it out.  Because of this, I'd assumed that nightmare arachnotron caves would be more tractable for a stronger character played by someone with more experience expecting to fight it out.

Even if I hadn't made these choices and mistakes, for a much stronger character, nightmare arachnotron caves are still likely death?

On top of that, it's 666 floors of no saving. Imagine making it down to floor 500, calling it a night, and forgetting your computer had an automatic restart planned =P

I play on Linux so I don't have that problem ;).
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Sereg

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Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2020, 15:15 »

I encountered the nightmare arachnotron cave on 47, which is close to as early as it's possible to get one.  (43, if I'm reading the wiki correctly and its information is up to date, I haven't looked at the code for this section myself.)  I killed about one half arc of arachnotrons before I had to flee, and I assumed that part of this was because of my newness and relative incompetence.  (I ran out of plasma cells because of bad ammo management, my weapons and traits weren't particularly optimized, I didn't have back up armor for when the energy shield fell apart, and so on.)  The rest of it was that I wasn't actually committed to fighting it out: rather than standing and fighting where I'd landed, I wasted some actions moving to the up stairs, which were in an open area in the center of the cavern.  If I'd wanted to maximize my odds of clearing it, I would have tried to find reduce the damage I was taking at the cost of maybe not making it out.  Because of this, I'd assumed that nightmare arachnotron caves would be more tractable for a stronger character played by someone with more experience expecting to fight it out.

Even if I hadn't made these choices and mistakes, for a much stronger character, nightmare arachnotron caves are still likely death?

Not necessarily - but on N!, they spawn earlier and with larger numbers of enemies than on U. And as I mentioned, there are worse types of caves that can also spawn - I mentioned Shamblers and Cyberdemons, which are both worse than even Nightmare Arachnotrons. Lava and Agony Elemental Caves are also possible, and without fire immunity, Cyberdemons and Lava Elementals are all but certain death. Agony Elementals aren't quite so deadly, but clearing them with ammo is almost impossible, and clearing them with melee can be extremely painful - I don't think I'd want to try it without Vampire, which imposes some rather problematic restrictions on your build path. There are also Nightmare Demon caves, which are an absolute atrocity to survive, much less clear. Also bear in mind that such levels can spawn back to back, or at least near enough together to preclude fully recovering supplies expended on a previous level.

Ultimately, the point I was making is that there are a hell of a lot of ways to end an AAo666 run, especially on Nightmare!, and a lot of those ways are out of your control as a player - if you get a bad level/spawn, you need to flee or die, and a prospective YAAM run prevents fleeing, leaving only death as an option.

While I certainly still believe it's within the realm of possibility, I think it's easily more challenging than almost any Angelic badge in existence - certainly it's a big step farther than the associated Angelic badge, Centurial Angelic. If it were an actual challenge, I'd call it Archangelic Centurial - but of course, we don't need such a category when only a handful of players can even touch the ordinary Angelics =P
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iainuki

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Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2020, 18:52 »

Not necessarily - but on N!, they spawn earlier and with larger numbers of enemies than on U.

Actually, my mistake, I was using the N! number there, the earliest a nightmare arachnotron cave should appear (assuming I have the difficulty numbers right) is 46 on UV.  On N! they can start at 43.  Assuming the wiki is accurate, this difference isn't that big.  The real problem is that you have to be able to murder your way through a pile of nightmare arachnotrons by dungeon level 43 or so, and it's not immediately clear to me what the best way to do that is.

And as I mentioned, there are worse types of caves that can also spawn - I mentioned Shamblers and Cyberdemons, which are both worse than even Nightmare Arachnotrons.   Lava and Agony Elemental Caves are also possible, and without fire immunity, Cyberdemons and Lava Elementals are all but certain death.

Is there no way to avoid or limit the damage from them?  Shamblers and cyberdemons are huge HP sponges, but their burst damage potential is weaker than many normal enemies.  Is it the accumulation of damage or the burst that's the problem?  Why is fire immunity mandatory, as opposed to very high fire resistance being sufficient?

Agony Elementals aren't quite so deadly, but clearing them with ammo is almost impossible, and clearing them with melee can be extremely painful - I don't think I'd want to try it without Vampire, which imposes some rather problematic restrictions on your build path.

A nanoshrapnel shotgun would be the best non-melee option, but any nanomanufacture high damage weapon would probably be sufficient with an appropriate build.  I don't think melee is required.

There are also Nightmare Demon caves, which are an absolute atrocity to survive, much less clear.

FWIW I encountered two late-game Nightmare Demon caves this game and cleared both of them without any significant trouble.  Having the Jackhammer helped, but I suspect any build with sufficient shotgun firepower could manage.

Ultimately, the point I was making is that there are a hell of a lot of ways to end an AAo666 run, especially on Nightmare!, and a lot of those ways are out of your control as a player - if you get a bad level/spawn, you need to flee or die, and a prospective YAAM run prevents fleeing, leaving only death as an option.

Gambler's ruin is definitely the problem I would absolutely be worried about, though I think horrible normal levels should also be on the list.  (Elite formers feature prominently in my nightmares.)

While I certainly still believe it's within the realm of possibility, I think it's easily more challenging than almost any Angelic badge in existence - certainly it's a big step farther than the associated Angelic badge, Centurial Angelic. If it were an actual challenge, I'd call it Archangelic Centurial - but of course, we don't need such a category when only a handful of players can even touch the ordinary Angelics =P

I wouldn't go quite that far, I think the Speedrun Angelic is outright impossible ;).  This one is merely almost impossible.
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Sereg

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Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2020, 19:58 »

Actually, my mistake, I was using the N! number there, the earliest a nightmare arachnotron cave should appear (assuming I have the difficulty numbers right) is 46 on UV.  On N! they can start at 43.  Assuming the wiki is accurate, this difference isn't that big.  The real problem is that you have to be able to murder your way through a pile of nightmare arachnotrons by dungeon level 43 or so, and it's not immediately clear to me what the best way to do that is.
Ah, thanks for the clarification. Yeah, without a lucky invulnerability globe on the previous floor, these would be incredibly dangerous, and I'm also not sure how I'd approach one.

Is there no way to avoid or limit the damage from them?  Shamblers and cyberdemons are huge HP sponges, but their burst damage potential is weaker than many normal enemies.  Is it the accumulation of damage or the burst that's the problem?  Why is fire immunity mandatory, as opposed to very high fire resistance being sufficient?
It's been a long time since I've played much, so maybe my memory is not quite perfectly accurate, but I recall shamblers as being very accurate and doing very high damage. Cyberdemons come in Complexes, not Caves, and they'll soon start to annihilate all the walls near you, exposing you to fire from more and more of them simultaneously and severely limiting your positioning options. It's not so much accumulation or burst as it is aggregation - once you have 5 or 6 of them firing at you every action, it's pretty easy to get one-shot, even if you could otherwise mitigate damage from a smaller number. And 5 or 6 is a low estimate of what you might be facing even on spawn, much less later on as they start to collapse on you. Fire Immunity is necessary for Cyberdemons because as I mentioned, they tear up the walls and you're soon under attack from absolutely stupid numbers of them every turn, while lava elementals, if memory serves, have a napalm effect, which will eventually leave you with nowhere on the level to stand that isn't fire.

A nanoshrapnel shotgun would be the best non-melee option, but any nanomanufacture high damage weapon would probably be sufficient with an appropriate build.  I don't think melee is required.

You are correct, nanoshrapnel is excellent for agony/pain elementals and lost souls, while other nanomachic weapons would certainly help. Of course, this does mean that, in addition to everywhere else on the run where luck is going to be key, you'll need to find a nano pack before your first agony cave. Not impossible, certainly, but by no means a given.

FWIW I encountered two late-game Nightmare Demon caves this game and cleared both of them without any significant trouble.  Having the Jackhammer helped, but I suspect any build with sufficient shotgun firepower could manage.
Jackhammer was actually probably a lot more clutch there than you think - most other shotguns don't have the same potential for AoE knockback even in a single firing, and nothing else offers multiple bursts prior to a reload. A nanoshrapnel shotgun would be helpful here, but offers far less damage per shot(meaning both less killing potential and less knockback), putting you in severe danger of being surrounded and overwhelmed. However, you make a valid point - with proper positioning and a reasonably powerful shotgun build, they might not be run-ending.

Gambler's ruin is definitely the problem I would absolutely be worried about, though I think horrible normal levels should also be on the list.  (Elite formers feature prominently in my nightmares.)
Yeah, I have a feeling this would be the true death of any attempt at such a mortem. Even with excellent luck for hundreds of levels, most attempts will eventually encounter a situation that can't be survived while maintaining the 100% killcount. I can't imagine many people would have the persistence to keep at this one long enough to complete it, especially considering the very high difficulty of even getting such a run started, and the overwhelming tedium and time investment required by the full N! clears.

I wouldn't go quite that far, I think the Speedrun Angelic is outright impossible ;).  This one is merely almost impossible.

Actually, I suspect Speedrun is quite doable. I've never been much of a speedrunner at any game, and I managed an 8:07 N! win on graphical mode after a relatively small number of attempts. Granted, that's still less than half the speed demanded by the badge, but I think that if someone were to dedicate enough time and practice to speedruns, they'd eventually get a set of floors that was winnable in that time. A big part of that is building up the instinct needed to react almost instantly to various situations, and then have that instinct be correct during the winnable run. In any case, while the number of attempts to achieve this would certainly be higher than for Centurial Archangelic, the time cost per failed attempt is, by definition, almost insignificant.

Now, if we want to create a Speedrun Challenge worthy of an Archangelic Badge, might I suggest Compet-n Silver Cross on N! Ao100? ;)

Of course, if we insist on Archangelic Badges requiring Archangel challenge games, then Compet-n Silver is probably out of the running - maybe N! AAo666 in under three hours?

Either one is about 3-4 floors a minute(18 seconds per floor for Ao100, or 16 seconds per floor for AAo666), which is slightly more lenient than the current Speedrunner Angelic - the extra challenge comes from the lack of exploitable special floors, and the marathon grind(note that the slowest actual award, Compet-n Silver, would require a pace of 22.2 floors per minute, or about 2.7 seconds per floor[!], which I suspect is well and truly outside of the realm of possibility - probably even for an optimal AI, at least in a number of attempts that could be made in anything approaching a human lifespan).
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 20:16 by Sereg »
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iainuki

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Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2020, 13:15 »

Cyberdemons come in Complexes, not Caves, and they'll soon start to annihilate all the walls near you, exposing you to fire from more and more of them simultaneously and severely limiting your positioning options. It's not so much accumulation or burst as it is aggregation - once you have 5 or 6 of them firing at you every action, it's pretty easy to get one-shot, even if you could otherwise mitigate damage from a smaller number. And 5 or 6 is a low estimate of what you might be facing even on spawn, much less later on as they start to collapse on you.  Fire Immunity is necessary for Cyberdemons because as I mentioned, they tear up the walls and you're soon under attack from absolutely stupid numbers of them every turn, while lava elementals, if memory serves, have a napalm effect, which will eventually leave you with nowhere on the level to stand that isn't fire.

This is a very similar problem to mancubi, who do somewhat less damage per rocket but fire more rockets.  Having been in some of these situations, I'm not convinced that fire immunity per se is necessary, high resistance and some protection has been sufficient for me to take on mancubi even with a lot of cover destruction and being knocked around by multiple rockets every turn.  If I understand the mechanics right, nightmare arachnotrons are so dangerous because they fire 6 shots, each of which can only independently be reduced to 1 damage by plasma resistance, so no matter what you're taking 6 damage/enemy action (if they hit) without Survivalist?  A Cyberdemon only has 1 rocket so can do 1 damage/action assuming enough resistance and protection, while mancubi do 3 damage/action.  The damage from Cyberdemons and mancubi can also be limited more easily with Dodgemaster, which doesn't do much against nightmare arachnotrons.

Lava elementals do napalm the floor but you're going to need some means of walking on lava, the Inquisitor Set, the phaseshift set, or cerberus boots.

I think clearing nightmare arachnotron caves is going to be the riskiest task for Centurial Nightmare Ao100/Ao666.

You are correct, nanoshrapnel is excellent for agony/pain elementals and lost souls, while other nanomachic weapons would certainly help. Of course, this does mean that, in addition to everywhere else on the run where luck is going to be key, you'll need to find a nano pack before your first agony cave. Not impossible, certainly, but by no means a given.

Or include melee in the build.  I don't know what the right combination of traits for attempting this is, though I suspect that master traits may not be the direction you want to go.


Yeah, I have a feeling this would be the true death of any attempt at such a mortem. Even with excellent luck for hundreds of levels, most attempts will eventually encounter a situation that can't be survived while maintaining the 100% killcount. I can't imagine many people would have the persistence to keep at this one long enough to complete it, especially considering the very high difficulty of even getting such a run started, and the overwhelming tedium and time investment required by the full N! clears.

You're not going to try it ;)?

Actually, I suspect Speedrun is quite doable. I've never been much of a speedrunner at any game, and I managed an 8:07 N! win on graphical mode after a relatively small number of attempts. Granted, that's still less than half the speed demanded by the badge, but I think that if someone were to dedicate enough time and practice to speedruns, they'd eventually get a set of floors that was winnable in that time. A big part of that is building up the instinct needed to react almost instantly to various situations, and then have that instinct be correct during the winnable run. In any case, while the number of attempts to achieve this would certainly be higher than for Centurial Archangelic, the time cost per failed attempt is, by definition, almost insignificant.

Okay, I grant that it's a possibility.  I hadn't seen that run before you pointed me to it.  For some reason searching didn't find it.

Now, if we want to create a Speedrun Challenge worthy of an Archangelic Badge, might I suggest Compet-n Silver Cross on N! Ao100? ;)

Of course, if we insist on Archangelic Badges requiring Archangel challenge games, then Compet-n Silver is probably out of the running - maybe N! AAo666 in under three hours?

Either one is about 3-4 floors a minute(18 seconds per floor for Ao100, or 16 seconds per floor for AAo666), which is slightly more lenient than the current Speedrunner Angelic - the extra challenge comes from the lack of exploitable special floors, and the marathon grind(note that the slowest actual award, Compet-n Silver, would require a pace of 22.2 floors per minute, or about 2.7 seconds per floor[!], which I suspect is well and truly outside of the realm of possibility - probably even for an optimal AI, at least in a number of attempts that could be made in anything approaching a human lifespan).

Either of those would be impressively difficult, I agree.  That Ao100/Ao666 late-game floors are harder than any floors in the normal speedruns would also make the challenges significantly harder, IMO.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 13:51 by iainuki »
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ih8regin

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Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2020, 22:00 »

Cyberdemon vs mancubi - there are more differences than just HP pool. First, cybies target, mancubi wander, thus you will always get all the cyberdemons up your face in a small amount of time after entering a level with them, while you can evade most of the mancubi should you hide in a corner and knockback all of visible ones out of range. Second, cybies have more range than the player, meaning you will get rockets fired at you from off screen, and should you play say MAc, this would mean they always will have an edge over you without fire protection, mancubi have equal sight radius. Third, cyberdemons are immune to (their own only, or all cybies'? Unclear) splash, from at least their own attacks, so MAYBE two cybies can eventually kill each other should you say reload a plasma shrapnel being invulnerable, but mancubi DEFINITeLY aren't immune so if caught in crossfire, you have a decent chance to both dodge all mancubi rockets, provided you are at range, and kill some of them while not firing a single shot, but you cannot do the same vs cyberdemons.
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Sereg

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Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2020, 22:48 »

All valid points.

I remember at one point someone had posted a screenshot of a cyberdemon complex they encountered during an Ao100 run... it was nuts. There were 10 or more all on the screen at once in a circle around the player, with more on the way - like ih8regin said, they track down the player and they're literally everywhere on the level. I went looking for the screenshot, but wasn't able to find the mortem I saw it in, unfortunately.
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