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[Tormuse]

So I've been trying out the new Apocalypse difficulty, cycling through different challenge modes and different builds, trying to figure out what works best, and finally had some luck with Angel of Light Travel and a Survivor build.  :)

The early game was pretty harrowing, but started to come together when I got Angry MoFo 3.  AoLT doesn't let you carry around much in the way of healing opportunities, but the combination of Survivor and AMF helped mitigate that, and I think the AoLT speed boost was a big help in just getting around the levels quickly, before too many enemies revived.

Mid to late game was carried by a strategy suggested to my by Sylph of using a sniper rifle, along with an auto-repairing helmet with aim assist, and cover master 2, which allowed me to get +100% crit chance on every shot against any enemy where I waited at least once beforehand.  That, combined with AMF3 allowed me to do devastating damage to everything, with just a few bullets, including archmedusae and archwarlocks.  (Sadly, I lost the helmet when I got surrounded in a hunt level on the second last level;  I had to use a handful of grenades to get out of that situation)

The sniper rifle was important for ammo conservation, since AoLT obviously doesn't let you carry much, (I had another A! game come to an unfortunate end due to running out of ammo, so I wanted to be better prepared this time) and for a good chunk of the early game, I had a JAC .44 as a backup in case dangerous things got too close, (which I later replaced with the Firestorm;  another good weapon for ammo conservation) :)  and a melee weapon, first a combat knife, later a machete, then a katana, then Soulstealer.

The necrotic armour from Infernal Lock was a fortunate find, since up 'til that point, every suit of armour I wore got battered and destroyed, since I took full advantage of the build's benefits of low hp, so it was nice to finally have something that was self-repairing.  :)  (I worried a bit about the necrotic armour draining my hp at a bad time, taking me below the Survivor health gate and getting me killed, but fortunately, it didn't seem to drain my hp fast enough for that to be an issue)

That "Blind Luck Medal" came from the one instance in the whole game that I really used the Survivor's health gate feature.  I got zapped by an archmedusa, because I mistakenly thought it hadn't charged up a shot, and I fired a Firestorm shot at it in a situation where I had no cover, and it would have been wiser to run away.  (Oops!)  :o

I also made a recording of myself playing the last level.  I would have preferred recording the whole thing, and normally I wouldn't bother posting a single level, but Sylph made a comment about how she'd like to see more videos from me, and I thought, "aw, what the heck?"  :P  Anyway, here it is!  :)

Tormuse, level 18 Marine,
defeated the Harbinger against all odds.

He survived for 13257 turns.
The run time was 8h 18m 55s.
World seed was 3775.
He scored 11912 points.
He witnessed the APOCALYPSE!
He was an Angel of Light Travel!

CALLISTO L2 - Volatile Storage
CALLISTO L5 - Secure Vault
CALLISTO L5 -> Callisto Docking Bay
Europa Concourse - Lockdown
EUROPA L5 -> Refueling Base
Refueling Base - found Firestorm
IO L2 - Volatile Storage
IO L5 -> Infernal Lock
Infernal Lock - Cleared!
The Shattered Abyss - found Soulstealer
The Shattered Abyss - Cleared!
Dante Inferno - found BFT 10K
Dante Station L3 - The Hunt

Awards
  Explorer Ribbon (+100)
   * Visited all encountered special levels
  Blind Luck Star (+50)
   * Won despite getting down to 1hp at some point

He killed 1015 out of 1256 enemies.

 46 former grunts           12 security sentries
 1  former CRI grunt        8  military sentries
 12 former grenadiers       26 CalSec bots
 5  corrupted grenadiers    13 security bots
 4  former CRI  grenadiers  4  guardian bots
 13 former soldiers         55 reavers
 27 corrupted soldiers      46 cryoreavers
 9  former CRI soldiers     30 toxic reavers
 2  CRI soldiers            59 archreavers
 6  former sergeants        10 kerberi
 5  corrupted sergeants     7  cyberi
 3  former CRI sergeants    12 cryoberi
 20 former guards           3  toxiberi
 2  corrupted guards        7  medusae
 6  former commandoes       20 archmedusae
 12 corrupted commandoes    27 ravagers
 2  former CRI commandoes   19 armored ravagers
 2  CRI commandoes          6  siege ravagers
 2  former heavies          20 plasma ravagers
 2  corrupted heavies       31 CRI marines
 8  security drones         5  CRI bots
 46 fiends                  14 guardians
 8  fire fiends             3  sentinels
 19 ice fiends              8  warlocks
 31 CalSec sentries         3  archwarlocks

Traits
  Furious L2
  Hellrunner L3
  Tough as Nails L3
  Rip and tear L1
  Cover Master L2
  Angry Motherfucker L3
  SURVIVOR L3

Trait order
  Hr->AMf->AMf->AMf->TaN->MSV->Cov->Cov->
  RaT->Hr->MSV->TaN->MSV->Hr->TaN->Fur->
  Fur

Equipment
  Slot #1 : AV1 7.62 sniper rifle +BC
   * Freezing 2
   * Auto-calibrated
   * Speed-loader
   * Hunter 6
   * Scope

  Slot #2 : Firestorm
  Slot #3 : Soulstealer
  Body : necrotic armor
   * Necrotic

  Head :  - NONE -
  Utility : AV3 auto AMP
   * Automatic reloader
   * Auto crit system

  Relic :  - NONE -

Permanents
  Medusa's Curse
  CRI backpack

Inventory
  7.62 ammo (x100)
  7.62 ammo (x100)
  7.62 ammo (x16)
  military stimpack


[thelaptop]

The hell... and here I am, getting headaches dealing with "mere" Medusas on Hard.

You sir, are a mad man, but in a good way!

[Tormuse]

Thanks!  :D  And it's totally understandable to struggle with medusae.  They're a menace.  They basically exist to counter any possible strategy you want to approach them with.  :P

[Sylph]

Amazing job!

Regarding the 'near miss' from the archmedusa - I'm not sure whether it's a bug or intended, but even after their 'charging' mode runs out, they stay charged until they fire! I'm not sure why they don't pre-charge before they see you. (Don't get any ideas Kornel!)

It can still be really valuable to let their charging mode run out, because we can often shoot them to death before they fire their shot.

I know Tormuse already knows this, but for anyone else reading - if we *must* take a medusa beam, I did some testing on it, and cover, hunker, and dodge are the best defenses against it. Importantly, it's usually better to 'hunker' until their beam fires, and *then* retaliate, than it is to attack while they are charging.

Awesome run! I'm going to have a go at some A! challenges soon, but I'll not be able to hold a candle to you! Well done, kudos!

[Cotonou]

Ah, excellent.  How does the lack of badges feel?  Like a hole in the heart, right?

The Necroarmor seems extremely good in all cases.  I used to be afraid of the lifedrain, but its so little there's no point even thinking about it.

Medusae are just such dickish enemies.  They slither so its very hard to alpha them.  They do consistent AoE so there's little dodging them.  They drain your HP if you close to melee.  I... don't think I like them.  They're too good.  Sure, you can deal with them, but aside from Wizard Toxicologist its always through some form of attrition.  And then you get Archmedusae where they go nigh-invulnerable while they charge up, and then HOLD that invulnerability until they punch you.  Dicks.  I think I'd like it if they were a bit more rare, as each sighting is a Major Big Deal.  Also I think there's design space for some sort of Minidusa that has the slither, but not the AoE or the Bite.  Hitting the player with all those mechanics at once is kind of a lot.

I'm honestly shocked you pushed off Hellrunner 2 for so long, nevermind Hellrunner 3.  I suppose Light Travel helps, but still.  Movement speed is something you can never have enough of.  Have you ever spec'd into Running?  I consider it an extremely strong path.

I also am a huge fan of aim assist.  It is a very high priority on most of my runs now -- I refer to it as the Magic Helmet.  It used to be the crux of my Apocalypse gibbing builds, but now its just a Very Nice To Have. 

I see you didn't puss out like I did and actually got Soulstealer.  Getting that sword on A! is a first, as far as I know.  Also from the body count it seems you didn't puss out again and at least put in an effort in Dante.  I just stair-dive in terror.  The last level of Dante is WAY harder than the endboss.

Lately I've been trying (and trying and trying and trying) to win a normal Apocalypse Technician game.  I've all but given up.  Technicnans are just so bad at higher difficulties.  The fact they start with multitools is like a cruel joke, since there's just nothing to use them on.  Everything is slow, everything is bad.  I've gotten midway through Io exactly once, and even there I was shocked at how quickly things could turn against you.  I think the core of it is that speed boosters are even more critical than normal in Jupiter Hell because movement is only 4-directional, but shooting is line-of-sight. 

[Sylph]

Re: The lack of Apocalype badges... I'm quite happy with it. I understand that in future A! is intended to be balanced without regeneration. I really like the idea of that (well, I'd be ok with a reduced form of respawning, just not to the extent of N!), and knowing that makes me comfortable with the fact that A! badges don't exist - they're not supposed to! Current A! is a placeholder for something better in future!

Re: hellrunner - Tormuse is currently trying a scout build without hellrunner at all on A!
I'm currently playing loosely with A! technician runs (because I love the tech), but it's an ordeal!
I don't know how Tormuse does it! The guy is a machine! Always has been on chaosforge games! It took all the effort in the world for me to get a N! win without hellrunner (technician without just cheesing toxicologist/wizard!)... Getting that kind of result in A! Is just one step beyond!!

Re: Soulstealer / shattered abyss - I've done soulstealer on A!!!! In fact, I got absolutely, truly ridiculous with it!!!
Check out this screenshot: https://i.imgur.com/Y6irzlz.png
(Specifically, the damage!)
In fact, I'd say that, provided proper care is taken, good marine masters (ok, survivor and vampyre) have an easier run when they do shattered abyss. Soulstealer can be a really powerful way to cap off the end of the game on '!' difficulty. :)
"I see you didn't puss out like I did and actually got Soulstealer. Getting that sword on A! is a first, as far as I know. " - Just to be clear, I'm certain that my soulstealer run was at least a few days after this run! I suspect Tormuse was still first, he was just reasonable about it, unlike me!!! :P


I'm very much in the same boat as you, though, Cotonou... N! and A! feel like the realm of the hellrunner. In fact I can categorically state that I found A! using hellrunner (or wizard) easier than N! without. I really *love* the mechanics of the game, especially the way hunker and aim play off the 'general' dodge and cover mechanics. For this reason I've always felt a little disappointed that N! (and apocalypse) favour Hellrunner so strongly due to the respawning 'time limit', and for that reason I'm hugely looking forward to what the 'new' apocalypse offers when the focus on respawning enemies is dialed back somewhat.

(ps. Massive congratulations to you, too, Cotonou! I've always seen Tormuse as someone to measure up against, but your recent return and amazing runs on JH have clearly demonstrated that you're another 'one to beat', as it were. Kudos and respect!!! I wonder how many other A! winners there are floating around the internet, besides the 3 of us in this topic?)

[Tormuse]

How does the lack of badges feel?  Like a hole in the heart, right?

Eh, I'm not too troubled by it.  It would be nice to have a badge associated with it, but I figure any victory at A! is achievement enough in itself.  :)  Anyway, as Sylph indicated, I expect they'll be coming in a later version, so it's fine.

The Necroarmor seems extremely good in all cases.  I used to be afraid of the lifedrain, but its so little there's no point even thinking about it.

Yeah, same.  Back in my DoomRL days, the Necroarmor was my favourite armour.  (until they redesigned resistances, and Malek's armour edged it out)  The way I see it, compared to other armours of similar strength, it's just a matter of whether you take the damage from the initial enemy's shot, or from repairing the armour afterward;  it comes out the same, damage-wise, only this way, you get free armour repair.  :)

Medusae are just such dickish enemies.  They slither so its very hard to alpha them.  They do consistent AoE so there's little dodging them.  They drain your HP if you close to melee.  I... don't think I like them.  They're too good.  Sure, you can deal with them, but aside from Wizard Toxicologist its always through some form of attrition.  And then you get Archmedusae where they go nigh-invulnerable while they charge up, and then HOLD that invulnerability until they punch you.  Dicks.  I think I'd like it if they were a bit more rare, as each sighting is a Major Big Deal.  Also I think there's design space for some sort of Minidusa that has the slither, but not the AoE or the Bite.  Hitting the player with all those mechanics at once is kind of a lot.

Yup, that pretty much sums up my thoughts about medusae.

I'm honestly shocked you pushed off Hellrunner 2 for so long, nevermind Hellrunner 3.  I suppose Light Travel helps, but still.  Movement speed is something you can never have enough of.  Have you ever spec'd into Running?  I consider it an extremely strong path.

I haven't actually played around with running so far.  I've mostly been trying to get wins with scout or technician lately, since a clear majority of my wins so far have been with the marine.

I see you didn't puss out like I did and actually got Soulstealer.  Getting that sword on A! is a first, as far as I know.  Also from the body count it seems you didn't puss out again and at least put in an effort in Dante.  I just stair-dive in terror.  The last level of Dante is WAY harder than the endboss.

Shattered Abyss was fairly easy with this build.  Reavers were pushovers and I dealt with the archreavers by luring them out one at a time.  As for the Swordmaster, it was a matter of putting lots of trust in the Survivor hp gate, and running around to heal.  :P  Once I'd dispatched him, I hung around the level for a while to beef up the Soulstealer and also boost my max hp.  I'd gotten up to 158 max hp when I was forced to flee the level by an exalted reaver with fire and deadly.

Re: hellrunner - Tormuse is currently trying a scout build without hellrunner at all on A!

If you're referring to that game I posted on Discord, I should probably point out that it was an AoC challenge game, which is a very different kind of game, where speed doesn't necessarily provide the same benefit it might in a standard game.  (Also, I got dash, so I wasn't totally without speed boosts)  :)

I don't know how Tormuse does it! The guy is a machine! Always has been on chaosforge games!

Oh, you flatter me.  :P  (Thanks!)  :D

[Sylph]

I've mostly been trying to get wins with scout or technician lately, since a clear majority of my wins so far have been with the marine.

I'm so glad you're giving them a go!
My current feeling is that the marine is *way* more powerful than the other classes in the more taxing challenges. Partly from the fact that hellrunner is so strong, less so but relevant is the fact that cover master is the poorer equivalent of hellrunner for a 'basic' defense skill; partly from all the marine's healing; but partly just because the utility of marine traits is so damn strong. I mean, incredible power of survivor and vampyre aside, have you tried bloodhound? They even get the closest equivalent to DRL intuition for my money!!!

I don't mind that, btw: Just in case it sounded like some kind of a complaint! Part of me kinda likes the fact that the marine is the occupation most suited to fighting jovian demonic incursions! It's like throwing a weapon to a surveyor, an engineer, and a soldier, then pitting them against a force of sci-fi demons and seeing which gets furthest!!!

I think the only thing that really niggles at me is that any scout/tech/marine wins (since I feel different classes present a hugely different challenge) are tracked as 'the same' for almost all badges. I recently suggested a possible addition to the game that would track the player class used to finish any challenge; I think it would give the game a *huge* amount of extra longevity for those of us that see game modes as a 'puzzle' to be solved.

Oh, you flatter me.  :P  (Thanks!)

Nothing undeserved!!! ;)