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[Potman]

In the version before last, I usually went Cateye x2, Eagle Eye x2, and maxed Hellrunner and TaN in my leisure after that. I dropped Cateye in the last version, because Inituition x3 was so much more useful. So it went Eagle Eye x2, Inituition x3, and Hellrunner/TaN.

Nowadays I've dropped Inituition as well, because I can't hit enemies anymore unless I can see them. I will still always, with a few exceptions, pic Eagle Eye as my starting trait. This is because without it either I can't hit a shit, or I have to go aggressive and the enemies will hit me. Only exceptions to the rule are AoB (Brute) and if I plan to play with Shotgun (Reloader). I pick Eagle Eye before Son of a Gun even on AoM.
Since both Cateye and Inituition are nerfed now, I won't bother putting another point for EE, instead going for TaN and Stonewall/Badass - whatever it's called nowadays - or Finesse and Whizkid - even if I still have no idea whatsoever about those modslots.
On AoB I'd first go Brute x2, and then max Berserker and Hellrunner in some randon way. On AoM I'd continue - after that one EE - With SoaG x2, Dualgunner, SoaG, Finesse x2. And if I'm playing with shotgun, it'll be Reloader x2, Shottyman, Hellrunner x3.

Edit: Oh, and on Angel of Purity I will never go TaN, because Badass is worthless since there's no way for me to get my life past 100% in the first place.

[Rook]

Well, in the old version, I usually went max TaN, then Ironman. In this version, I like to have fun with chainguns with two levels in SoaB, then max Triggerhappy, max SoaB, then max Finesse (If I can live that long).

I usually put 2 levels in SoaG on my AoM runs, if only for Dualgunner. However, I've been noticing lately that my shots seem to be weaker once I get the second level in it. With 1 in SoaG, I can kill imps with 3 bullets at most. Yet, with 2 levels in SoaG, while on Aggressive, I suddenly need 4-5 to kill every single one, and I've emptied entire clips into demons and still had them charging at me.

Long story short, I may take your idea and put some ranks into Eagle Eye first.

[TFoN]

I've been playing around with Finesse, EE and Juggler, and am thinking of trying out Cateye. Intuition is still very useful (the 50% miss rate's almost trivial when you know where your enemies are exactly, and that only costs 1 rank - the other 2 have their own advantages which haven't been reduced at all), but I've picked up the habit of avoiding it while learning to survive without it on 985. Wizzkid's great, especially with such useful requirements, which also open another great advanced trait, namely Juggler.

I don't like Triggerhappy for reasons I had described elsewhere.

EDIT:

If that's what Triggerhappy does, I'm not sure it fits my purposes. Or maybe it does, but I'll have to carry around a secondary weapon when conserving ammo is crucial. I mean, 7 (TH(1), CG) to 12 (TH(2), PR!) shots on a former foo...? Sounds almost worse than being hit while firing twice. And consider that Finesse(2) will not only allow for more controlled bursts of only slightly fewer shots/tick, it also opens 2 advanced traits to pick from, both of which are very much worth having. My basic calculation (I'm not aware enough of game mechanics to assure its accuracy) tells me that while TH(1) gives a CG a 20% increase in shots/tick, Finesse gives a 10% increase while keeping it better controlled at 5 shots per turn.

[Potman]

Intuition is still very useful (the 50% miss rate's almost trivial when you know where your enemies are exactly, and that only costs 1 rank - the other 2 have their own advantages which haven't been reduced at all),

Sure, but for me, the main reason to pick Inituition is to snipe all those enemies from afar before they can even see me. Since that's taken away, I won't bother with all those other advantages, instead picking up something else altogether.

Wizzkid's great, especially with such useful requirements,

Unfortunately for me, I never manage to find advanced weapons at all. Or if I do, they're something like Advanced shotgun when I'ven't picked Shottyman. It's never Advanced chaingun or plasma rifle, which'd be the most useful ones. Sucks.

In another matter, if I play AoM and manage to find another Advanced pistol, how can I choose which pistol I put my mods on?

which also open another great advanced trait, namely Juggler.

I'm not a big fan of this one, since I usually keep plasma rifle on my hands all the time: If they're some really nasty guys, fine. I'll just blast them to pieces. If they're something less dangerous, I'll easily shrug off their pathetic attacks while switching to chaingun.

[TFoN]

In another matter, if I play AoM and manage to find another Advanced pistol, how can I choose which pistol I put my mods on?

That's a damn good question :P  Luckily (or unluckily, as it means I haven't found any second advanced pistols :P ), I haven't ecountered this problem just yet...

which also open another great advanced trait, namely Juggler.

I'm not a big fan of this one, since I usually keep plasma rifle on my hands all the time: If they're some really nasty guys, fine. I'll just blast them to pieces. If they're something less dangerous, I'll easily shrug off their pathetic attacks while switching to chaingun.

Well, I'm more of a pull-out-that-RL-and-kill-everything-which-is-far-from-me kinda' guy ^^
I like knowing that when my CG can't deal with everything at once, I can rest assured that my RL'll push most targets away, allowing me to better deal with them as they re-enter my LOS. By not wasting any turns I gain a LOT. Also, Juggler in its current incarnation can effectively work like my suggested Massacre Man trait, allowing any ranged weapon to be dual-wielded with a CS, as you can switch to strike at any given time as long as one of your held weapons is a chainsaw. What's more is that it can do the same with the LS, which can then work as extended tactics as you switch to it, at no cost in time, whenever you don't intend on firing a weapon - gaining 6 AC points.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Note that the Intuition nerf is a very discreet one:
-- the 50% misschance isn't big
-- the true nerf comes from the fact that damaged out-of-LOS enemies come directly at you now (instead of aimless wandering)

[Potman]

50% isn't big? Because it sounds pretty big to me, and I indeed can't hit anything in the dark anymore.

And however it is, Inituition is now, for me, pretty useless.

[Firstblood]

Standard build:
Hellrunner, Intuition, Ironman, Juggler
... I always try to take some Hellrunner, and Ironman.
... The Intuition path is still too useful to ignore, although CatEye is a good alternative now.
... Juggler, for same reasons as TFoN.
 (RL and instant swap to CG/PR, or instant swap back to RL)
 (or instant swap to DSG/CS for close encounters, and swap back)
 (or instant swap to from one emptied PR to another in really dangerous close encounters)

AoB:
Berserker, Hellrunner, Ironman, Tough as Nails
... this is pretty much standard for any melee character

AoMr:
Hellrunner, Intuition, Son of a Gun, Whizkid
... sniping with pistols

AoLt:
Berserker, Hellrunner, Intuition, Ironman
... weaker melee fighter with foresight n CG/RL to balance weakness


My opinions on my least used traits:

TaN: I can't say much against this, as I've never used it apart from in N! run, where it was essential, but as its use is probably very dependent on how much damage you take, I prefer Ironman. I can see situations where TaN is better though.

Rel: Very useful in 0.985. Still useful in 0.987, but if you have an advanced weapon, you can do better with WK.

Cat: Int[3] was more useful in 0.985, at least on UV where you had lots of traits. Have to play more 0.987 games before I can judge this one.

Shottyman: Shotguns are a bit more useful in 0.987 with the new AI, but still the weakest type of weapons IMO. Shottyman trait as a function rocks though.

Badass: 2-3 levels of this trait seems too much to me. 1 level might make it too good. This trait would be more useful with just one level, and a very slow or non-existant health degen, or very slow health degen down to 150% and then stop at 150%. Although I've never taken it, I'm basing this purely on the fact that you need 3 levels of Badass to get the health degen to stop, so maybe its just for me that its not a good trait, as I spend a lot of turns exploring levels after I clear them. Might be more useful to other players. IMO probably the weakest trait in the game (esp. as TaN is now the requirement instead of Ironman, so less boosted health), next to SoaB, which is weak solely because it doesn't seem to work, or work as expected.

Triggerhappy: I'm not fussed about the potential ammo wastage, as I can always carry a backup shotty for the formers. This is an awesome powered trait! (the fact that is has more than one level makes it powerful as each level is a big boost on firepower) but I don't know if I will ever take it, because SoaB seems broken or almost worthless.

[TFoN]

-- the true nerf comes from the fact that damaged out-of-LOS enemies come directly at you now (instead of aimless wandering)

Which should work like a charm to lure single enemies away from the LOS of an AV, where they'll stay dead once you kill them :)
It should also work to better herd enemies into liquids, which is crucial in N!. I think that where this trait is most necessary, this is less of a nerf and more of a change.

The 50% miss rate only means twice the number of bullets. That basically means 1/2 damage, though rockets are more likely to destroy scenery and barrels are more likely to be hit if behind an off-LOS target. It still enables for some pretty sure killing with the mostly advantageously multi-shooting CG and PR (as more shots means everything's less luck-based), and SGs are unaffected. I've already taken out quite a few targets by shooting a pistol/CG up a hallway, and since it seems monster AI hasn't been changed so that they stop heading towards the center horizontal line, I've also killed by shooting, in any room, up the horizontal line closest to the center. So, IMO, this is still an excellent trait.


I love TaN, and find it to be much better than IM. I've written about that once... I'll find it in a moment.

My current problem with Badass is the Stonewall merger. As I've said in the past, anything that pushes me so far back, I'd rather be far from anyway. Other than that, it really is too expensive. Having it reduced to 2 ranks while increasing the value of the first'll probably be best. Then, again detach Stonewall and make it a one-rank 3-tile knockback reduction of strategic value.

Triggerhappy: I'm not fussed about the potential ammo wastage, as I can always carry a backup shotty for the formers. This is an awesome powered trait! (the fact that is has more than one level makes it powerful as each level is a big boost on firepower) but I don't know if I will ever take it, because SoaB seems broken or almost worthless.

I thought you said it was SoaG that's buggy. Either way (and certainly if it's both), this seems pretty extreme to have been missed all this time. Not to say that it couldn't happen. On the contrary, as EE and Brute say they give a bonus of 4 in the trait descriptions and 3 in the mortem (v0985, at least), which for me is enough to speculate. This would, however, be a very embarrassing bug to discover, as I'd commented on the usefulness of SoaB on several occasions :) On the other hand, that means I had won games with up to 3 traits wasted :P

[TFoN]

The "8 shots" must be refering to a former commando/Arach attack, but I couldn't find any mention of that earlier in the conversation. Maybe I thought there was such a comment when I orignally posted :)

1 armor for 8 shots means 16% max HPs saved, assuming you're still at 50 max HPs. That's a huge difference, aspecially if you're shot at more than once. Anyway, consider that IM is a 20% increase from 50 HPs, so the match is at least close even at just one attack, but since use of those additional 10 HPs requires healing (often a full heal, otherwise you may stay beneath the 50 HP line), TaN is more likely to come in handy. On the other hand, if you're down to 2 HPs, are still in danger, have no access to healing and happen to level-up, IM can be a life-saver :)

[...]

To truly value the weight of TaN, try playing an entire game with no armor.
3 armor means 6% maxHPs saved, which is, among others, a good chunk off Caco hits. Also, since we can probably agree that 1 point of armor isn't much to rely on, consider that 3 armor is almost 4, meaning that with TaN(3) you have indestructable, weightless, stackable near-red armor on at all times. Together with red armor, that's 7 points, you reduce damage from all monster attacks by 14% maxHPs. AA puts you at 18%. What does our AV have to say about that?

Here's the original thread.
[M|96%|Win] YAFVP - shottyman path by Zarin.
Nothing there of much relevance here, but anyway.

My idea and reasoning is that there's a very good chance for TaN(1) saving 10 HPs between full health and death, with each additional rank of TaN likewise matching each additional rank of IM.

[Firstblood]

On the contrary, as EE and Brute say they give a bonus of 4 in the trait descriptions and 3 in the mortem (v0985, at least), which for me is enough to speculate.

I think thats a good guess at the reason actually. Its hard to tell if SoaB is broken as its only +1 bonus and generally used with CG and PR which are high damage weapons, I'm not certain if SoaB is broken at all, but it doesn't seem to make much practical difference and I would have thought it should, however I'm only recording minimum and maximum shots to kill and not an exact average. I did a game trying pistols and SoaB 3 and didn't notice a difference though.

However, SoaG the +2 damage bonus is easier to see its broken, as the base damage on pistols is so low. I think someone even reported on here that SoaG lvl 2 is less damage, but I think that was just bad luck, I think its about the same damage. I started taking notes after I suspected there was no damage bonus, and they if anything confirmed my suspicions. It might be a +1 bonus, theres a big difference between +1 and +2. I think if it was actually +2, it could be very unbalanced, pistols would become uber (they already are really good with pistol based traits, it just takes a lot of traits to get them there).

Anyway from what you just said. I think that Brute was +3 /level, EE was +3 /level, SoaB was +0 /level and SoaG was +1 (or +0)/level (although Im not sure why, I remember in mortems, that the value bonus give was +1 per level of SoaB).


Its not really embarassing, its what we're here for :)
On the assumption SoaB works, then all the strategies and tactics given for SoaB are perfectly viable. I think a functionable SoaB is a very good ammo-saving plus health-saving trait, the only reason I don't take it, is it doesn't seem to any practical difference in combat.

[TFoN]

Its not really embarassing, its what we're here for :)

Ah, but I have used it so very much and have commented so happily on the difference it made on those games where I took it, that discovering that it doesn't work will simply mean that it's all placebo, and I'm the test subject 8)
Other than that, I agree :P

Bottom line is, Kornel, any chance you could go over your algorithms? There's only so much we can do with statistics :)

[TFoN]

Ah! I know how we can test damage accurately!

First of all, to start with, we have this, courtesy of BDR:

almost unhurt = 49-46 HP (98%-92%)
scratched = 45-41 HP (90%-82%)
lightly wounded = 40-36 HP (80%-72%)
wounded = 35-26 HP (70%-52%)
heavily wounded = 25-16 HP (50%-36%)
severely wounded = 17-11 HP (34%-22%)
mortally wounded = 10-6 HP (20%-12%)
almost dead = 5-1 HP (10%-2%)

He found it by standing on acid and watching his health drop ^^
We can use this chart (assuming it's true also for monsters) to better test damage per shot.

Second, I was just about to post a very peculiar bug report, which can serve our purpose perfectly. I'll elaborate right after I do.

[TFoN]

Nevermind, the rather necessary screenshots are on my other computer, so the bug post'll have to wait. The main idea is that on one of those special, rare arena levels, I could attack myself by shooting at the center of the map. Come to think of it, that might not be a bug - just a way to deter us from shooting up the center horizontal line, where monsters congregate. Anyway, using this (if it wasn't some 1-time freak case) we can almost accurately calculate damage and the such.

[Malek Deneith]

Edit: Oh, and on Angel of Purity I will never go TaN, because Badass is worthless since there's no way for me to get my life past 100% in the first place.

TFoN pretty much summed it up but I'll say it again - TaN is very, very good feat

Shottyman: Shotguns are a bit more useful in 0.987 with the new AI, but still the weakest type of weapons IMO. Shottyman trait as a function rocks though.

Weakest... yessss... repeat that after taking a point-blank shot of double shotty...