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[Potman]

Their hit accuracy is monstrous even when I'm on Coward, even when I've spent points on Hellrunner. I consider this a bug for two good reasons:

1) Cacodemons are far more inaccurate everywhere else in the game.

2) No one in their right mind would ever be retarded enough to give any monster two-three points in Eagle Eye.

Seriously, when I entered Hell's Arena, I had a rocket launcer (with just one rocket, though), a chaingun, a blue armor, and I had just taken a Supercharge. I lost neverethless, thanks to above. I'd really prefer this to be fixed ASAP.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Ummm... This is not a bug.

Hell's Arena has OOD monsters and IS supposed to be tough.

[Potman]

I'm sure it is, but it's also supposed to be winnable. With this kind of a difficulty level there should be at least a plasma rifle in the end, but there isn't.

Edit: And what's OOD? Out Of Depth?

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Ask Blade and Firstblood if it's winnable. If they answer yes then it's winnable :).

Yes, Out Of Depth

[Potman]

Well I've also won it, but only once. 'Tis still too damn hard. Just normal Cacodemons would've done fine.

[Malek Deneith]

Ask Blade and Firstblood if it's winnable. If they answer yes then it's winnable :).

Considering they both are known for completing insane challenges this is a bad example - you should eaven up the game towards normaln players not maniacs :P

[Potman]

^ What he said. If you can't beat something that first appears on level 2-3, even with a blue armor and a Supercharge, something's wrong.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

BTW, they are NORMAL Cacodemons.

[Potman]

Then there's something very, very wrong.

[TFoN]

Wrong perhaps, but I'm sorry to say that it's not with the level :)
Cacos have quite a high to-hit ratio, no matter where you are. They're tough opponents, and that's how it goes. If you're an Intuition person, though, there's chance that with the exception of this level, you've hardly ever had to face them directly, at least not while they're in good health. Also, the RL's great against them, but 1 rocket's really not enough to make a difference. Later, however, it keeps them out of LOS so often, that they're rarely in a position to fire. Have you tried giving up after the second wave? Or even after the first one? Have you played with your tactics on a thorough, turn-by-turn basis? Have you exploited all known monster AI quirks, and as carefully as possible? Have you been using small medkits the moment you fall under ~60% and are in relative safety or under ~30% in almost all cases? I've personally passed nearly every single Hell's Arena on normal games, at difflvl HMP circa v0987 and UV circa v985, by doing up to all of these at the same time, and I know that even with a few bad mistakes on the way, it is very possible to complete, and in good condition. That aside, note that these Cacos are, as said, out of depth, and it is certain that, no matter what traits you took, they'll be harder to kill than they'll be later on. So instead of opening a thread accusing the game of being wrong, why don't you ask how others have been doing on it? Firstblood's been having problems with Hell's Arena on AoMr - he didn't accuse the game of being buggy, and you know that he's been finding them enough for that to have happened if this were the case.

But most of all, Hell's Arena might not always supposed to be winnable by all - it's a special level, and sometimes not all of it can be done without many, bloody attempts, and even then it might be through sheer luck. I, personally, really hate the CoS, and have only ever completed it once.

[Potman]

I used to win easily in the last version, so there must be something that's happened since then. Also, Cacos have never been a problem for me outside Hell's Arena, except maybe in large numbers.

[Blade]

I don't know, why all of you think that Cacodemons are hard. After all this AVs, BoHs and commandos they are really rest.)) If you have a chaingun, they cause absolutely no problems, only in numbers. And they have very little to-hit ratio.))

I'll repost from shoutbox that i uploaded record of how innacurate are they here. You need a DosRecorder to play this record.

Here DosRecorder is.

[TFoN]

Err, I haven't almost any space left on my hard disk -_-
Could you just give the numbers? I, personally, am almost always hit by them, in Coward and without HR.

[Blade]

They have size of 4 Mb.

On Hell's Arena they have fired 14 times and they missed 8 of them. I was in coward all the time, haven't moved from side to side, and haven't picked HellRunner.

[TFoN]

What if I tell you I currently have 3 left? :P
Don't ask... And I had no idea a computer can even run this way.

Could you test this a few more times and see if those numbers stick?

Either way it goes, although this means they hit less often than I had thought, 50% is a lot considering how often other projectiles (PRs, CGs and IIRC fireballs) miss in the same situation.

[Blade]

Next tries were(quantity of missiles fired/quantity of missed missiles) - 9/4, 8/1, 7/2, 7/2. I don't know what chance to hit they have, but i think that near 50%.

I attached save in Hell's Arena on UV, feel free to use.))

[TFoN]

Thanks.

The cases are 14/8, 9/4, 8/1, 7/2, 7/2.

If I'm not mistaken, that means:

14+18+64+24+24/8+8+8+8+8

144/40 (total fired)/(total missed)

40/144 (total missed)/(total fired)

~277/1000 which is

That's ~72% to-hit according to the above data, if my math is correct.

My guess is that, according to the above, it has a 75% to-hit, which IMO is too much for such a frequent, quite powerful monster.

[Blade]

I was coward all the time, so their real to-hit chance is greater. But i think that i must play at least 10 more games, and after that check, what result would i have.

[Blade]

This time i was "cautious", so no dodge bonus for me. And i am very surprised with results. I never counted Cacodemons as accurate monsters.

9/1, 10/1, 6/0, 10/1, 9/0, 8/0, 8/0, 10/2, 9/1, 9/0.

Maybe i'm wrong, but imho it means:

1+1+0+1+0+0+0+2+1+0/9+10+6+10+9+8+8+10+9+9

6/88 (total missed)/(total fired)

They have 7% chance to miss. So they have ~93% chance to-hit.

Hmm. That's too much, imho. In original DooM Cacodemon's fireball can be easily dodged, it have the same speed as imp's.

[TFoN]

93%'s insane, if you ask me. That makes aggressive better than cautious in almost every way, especially if there's a maximum 95% to-hit.


BTW, I was just killed by a HK. I was on coward, wasn't moving, no HR (not that it should matter while standing, but anyway) - he shot 5 times, and didn't miss once. I'm guessing that with further testing, they'll show to be a little more accurate than Cacos. My guess is that Barons are even worse, and Mancubi are only slightly less accurate. Considering all of these fire mostly every round, there isn't much room for a strafing strategy, so it's almost impossible to not get hit without killing them out of LOS. I think this is why everyone needs Intuition so badly.

[TFoN]

Also, note just how inaccurate Cybie is, in comparison. I think either accuracy in monsters should be reduced, or a trait giving an all-around dodge bonus should be added. I'd prefer the first, to keep the second from becoming a standard necessity.

[Blade]

I will try to figure out some monsters accuracy when i will have spare time. I prefer first too, because otherwise you will be required to max this trait every game.