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Author Topic: SoG works or not ?  (Read 11640 times)

Karry

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SoG works or not ?
« on: May 12, 2007, 03:57 »

Its impossible to tell the energy spent, but does SoG add damage or not ?
Wiki says sergeant has 10hp, last time i had SoG3 that should mean my MINIMUM damage is 8 and maximum 14. It is my understanding that if a monster wears armour - it falls out when he dies ? Then why does unarmoured sergeant sometimes takes 4 shots ? It should always be between 1 and 2 shots, right ?

If he wears green armour - the minimum damage would be 7, also 2 shots tops !
If he wears blue armour - the minimum damage would be 6, ALSO 2 shots tops !
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Schluberlubs

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2007, 05:06 »

From what I've heard, SoaG's damage bonus is broken.
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BDR

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2007, 09:49 »

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Karry

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2007, 11:07 »

Quote
Searching around is good. :)
Riiight, THAT was easy and intuitive topic to find...
And its not in the "Bugs" section anyway.
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Karry

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2007, 06:51 »

Actually, that makes me think if any of other "math" traits work, or none of them do.
Its easy to see if Shottyman or Dualgunner or even Triggerhappy works, they either do or dont.
But how do i check TaN or SoB ? Maybe they are also there in name only ?
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2007, 09:21 »

Ok, here's the SAD TRUTH

BOTH SoB and SoG WERE BROKEN!

That means there's going to be a hell lot of rebalancing needed for the next version :(((
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Blade

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2007, 10:03 »

Yay! I always knew that SoaB isn't working! It just isn't making difference between Soab*3 and nothing. That's why i never picked it.
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Psion

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2007, 14:40 »

:( Wow.  So how long until the next version do you think?
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Zeb

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2007, 18:31 »

I was wondering why SoaB wasn't as awesome as it should be. (+15 damage on Chaingun and +24 damage on Plasma Rifle should make a major and valuable difference.) Any chance for a 9.8.7.5 in the next month or two? :-P You could use the update to fix up the other bugs as well (such as the second character in Arena) while waiting until 9.9 to actually add content.

Also, for balancing SoaG so that everyone doesn't just run pistols (that would make for a silly metagame) how about making it so that speed bonuses are applied sequentially instead of stacking? That would make it so you're not firing off twice as many bullets per X time as with a chaingun (which is a bit rediculous), and it would compensate for the extra 12 damage a shot you'd be getting with SoaG(3) and Dualgunner after the fix.

Alternately, you could just make SoaG a 2 level skill, but that would make AoMr too dependant on finding speed mods. (without them, you'd be 4 times as slow as with them even with all the speed skills)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 18:39 by Zeb »
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2007, 18:39 »

Take a look at the Livefeed for an answer. As for the next release, yeah, an intermediate 0.9.8.8 release is possible soon.
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Behrooz Wolf

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2007, 19:17 »

Ahh, more proof to back up my concise analysis of AoM in 0.9.8.7:

AoM + damage mods = win.
AoM + no damage mods = lose.

That also makes me feel better about never surviving in a game I took SoaB.
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Zeb

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2007, 20:37 »

I knew you had fixed those for a future version by following the forum and livefeed, I just was worried that we wouldn't see the fixes until next November. :-P The only thing on the livefeed I hadn't known/noticed was the changing SoaG to +1 damage, that sounds like a good compromise.

An intermediate version sounds good, if you can get it out within the next not very much time. :-P You're probably planning this anyway, but it would probably be best just as a bugfix version as opposed to adding new content with more bugs. (bugs are pretty much inherant in a project like this, but it's best to make this version work right before we get more problems to deal with.)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 20:41 by Zeb »
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Karry

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2007, 23:49 »

Dont forget to check Tough as Nails, whether it works or not, as well.
I'm even starting to think that Triggerhappy only eats extra ammo without actually adding any damage.
I'm getting paranoid...
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TFoN

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2007, 09:34 »

Err... Uhhh... I ran this game with SoaB(2)... Oo

So SoaG damage's being reduced to +1. How about reducing the speed bonus to -10%, while you're at it? Not only will this work to balance the sudden damage increase, this'll make speed mods over the first on AoMr actually useful. Currently, if I have my information right, energy cost for firing is 1000(base)-600(SoaG(3))-200(Finesse(2))=200. If each speed mod reduces this by a further 100, and the minimum energy cost's 100, one speed mod's all you need. At -10% for SoaG, 4 speed mods'll bring you exactly to 100.

Zeb

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2007, 14:40 »

Err... Uhhh... I ran this game with SoaB(2)... Oo

So SoaG damage's being reduced to +1. How about reducing the speed bonus to -10%, while you're at it? Not only will this work to balance the sudden damage increase, this'll make speed mods over the first on AoMr actually useful. Currently, if I have my information right, energy cost for firing is 1000(base)-600(SoaG(3))-200(Finesse(2))=200. If each speed mod reduces this by a further 100, and the minimum energy cost's 100, one speed mod's all you need. At -10% for SoaG, 4 speed mods'll bring you exactly to 100.

But then you have an issue with your success or failure being determined entirely by whether you find speed mods or not.
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MedO

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2007, 17:30 »

I'd also prefer a "sequential" speed bonus, so that speed mods/traits would give the following energy costs:

SoaG(1): 1000 - (1000*20%) = 800
SoaG(2): 800 - (800*20%) = 640
SoaG(3): 640 - (640*20%) = 512

Add Finesse to this:
Fin(1): 512 - (512*10%) = 461
Fin(2): 461 - (461*10%) = 415

...and three speed mods:
S1: 415 - (415*10%) = 373
S2: 373 - (373*10%) = 336
S3: 336 - (336*10%) = 302

Or alternatively, one could do away with the minimum energy cost... I'd love to shoot myself backward in time ;)
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BDR

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2007, 00:26 »

Looks to me like that makes speed mods nearly useless when not appearing in quantity after taking SoG 3 and Fin 2, not to mention sort of ruins the speed-shooter playstyle and makes it much less effective, possibly to the point where it no longer is worth going for speed alone.  I like being able to stare down a Mancubus, bust out an entire clip, then move into the shadows to reload without taking a single hit.  This would take that away from me. >:(

And you cannot tell me that as it is it's overpowered; I still have to deal with things that after such a clip will probably tear me apart even if I do go into coward mode first, and wide open spaces with no places to hide.
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TFoN

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2007, 04:25 »

But then you have an issue with your success or failure being determined entirely by whether you find speed mods or not.
I seriously doubt it. Notice that right now, SoaG's being buffed up, period. You're getting a +1 to damage, and not in fact losing the +2. +1 to damage is at least equal to 1 damage mod, as it's a sure bonus to damage, as opposed to increasing a damage die, a bonus which statistically doesn't always come into effect - 2d4+1={3..9}, 2d5={2..10}. At SoaG(3), with mindmg=5, you'll be knocking things so far back so often, you're likely to have them out of LOS by the time they'll react. So, not only will you not need so much speed, I promise you it's going to become overpowered if you'll have both easy speed *and* high damage.

I like speed bonuses the way they are now. They're clear and to-the-point, and with the minimum energy cost, it can only be "exploited" so far.
Sequential bonuses also have another problem.

Fin(1):    1000 - 100 = 900
SoaG(1): 900 - 180 = 720
Fin(1):    720 - 72 = 648

That's the "same" 40% bonus gained from SoaG(2), i.e. 640. It might seem trivial, but beyond the irregularity which will make certain trait sequences give better bonuses, those 8 points do a lot of harm in the long run for anyone unprepared for them. Monsters'll "suddenly" take a free turn, once those points add up right. The irregularity problem's easily dealt with, by letting SoaG give 2 sequential 10% bonuses instead of 1 20% bonus. The second problem's bigger, as these <10 cost "fractions"'ll be coming up anyway.

MedO

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2007, 04:41 »

Consider how it works now: If you are down to 200 energy per shot, and apply a single speed mod, the mod makes you shoot TWICE AS FAST. I don't think this is such a good idea, though you could say these enourmous boosts are a reward for putting so many points into speed.

And I do think this is currently overpowered. I won in AoMr recently, (only HNTR, but I'm not that good). Most games ended before I found the first mods, but as soon as my advanced pistol was at full speed, it was a milk run. At no point did I feel unsafe, when an Arch-Vile came into view he died with maybe the time to attack me once (usually I run for the stairs whenever I see or hear one), and I never even found out how Mancubi are supposed to attack, because they never found the time. I cleared the Mortuary, with a single pistol, and my only real concern was that my ammo might run out (I only needed half of what I had, though). AoMr is supposed to be harder than playing normally I thought, but with the advanced pistol, I wouldn't ever want to swap my weapon anyway...
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TFoN

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2007, 06:20 »

Well, if SoaG's reduced to -10% and the mod bug's fixed, putting the max number of speed mods applicable at 3, AFAIK the minimum cost to fire a pistol'll be:

1000 (base) - 300 (SoaG(3)) - 200 (Fin(2)) - 300 (speedmod(3)) = 200

which means that a 10% bonus'll never actually double firing rate. But I understand your point, and as you put it, AoMr's supposed to be a *challenge*. So, how about removing the advanced pistol? Give the player a regular pistol instead. With normal weapons being slightly moddable, you'll be able to buff it up with a damgae mod to a 2d5 pistol, just like the one used on v0985, which worked fine to challenge and was passable. The damage increase from traits'll anyway only make it more so.

DaEezT

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2007, 00:52 »

So, how about removing the advanced pistol? Give the player a regular pistol instead. With normal weapons being slightly moddable, you'll be able to buff it up with a damgae mod to a 2d5 pistol, just like the one used on v0985, which worked fine to challenge and was passable.
I disagree. While I think that it's too easy now, reverting to a state similar to 0.9.8.5 would not really make it more fun.
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Fingerzam

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2007, 04:03 »

Err... Uhhh... I ran this game with SoaB(2)... Oo

So SoaG damage's being reduced to +1. How about reducing the speed bonus to -10%, while you're at it? Not only will this work to balance the sudden damage increase, this'll make speed mods over the first on AoMr actually useful. Currently, if I have my information right, energy cost for firing is 1000(base)-600(SoaG(3))-200(Finesse(2))=200. If each speed mod reduces this by a further 100, and the minimum energy cost's 100, one speed mod's all you need. At -10% for SoaG, 4 speed mods'll bring you exactly to 100.

Not quite true. The speed system works like this:

Shooting takes the following amount of energy:

{[(10-x)*(10-y)*10]-z}*a

Where:

x is 2 for rapid weapons and 1 for each speed mod, so 3 speedmods equals to x=3

y is the level of finesse

z is 200*[level of SoaG]

a is 1.6-[level of Dualgunner]*0.2

And it is capped at minimum 50 energy, because it would othervice be possible to have negative energy cost for a pistol. And a and z obviously only apply when shooting with a pistol. The figures for shooting with two pistols are taken from your main pistol, so having fast enough main pistol results in 50 energy for shooting two.

Here's the formulae in another format:
Code: [Select]
(((10-[number of speedmods / 2 for rapid])*(10-[level of finesse])*10)-200*[level of SoaG])*(1.6-0.2*[level of dualgunner]

And this has been in the wiki thread for ages.
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TFoN

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2007, 13:59 »

I was under the impression that this has been changed. Never mind my previous calculation, then.
With 2 speed mods, 2 levels of Finesse and 3 levels of SoaG:

((10-2)*(10-2)*10)-200*3 = 8*8*10-600 = 640-600 = 40

Which means that two speed mods are enough to put you below 50 (one puts you at 120). That's a big difference from one, but I still think SoaG's bonus should be reduced to -10%, especially considering the fixed damage bonus still applies.

I disagree. While I think that it's too easy now, reverting to a state similar to 0.9.8.5 would not really make it more fun.
Understandable, though I really liked the v0985 challenge, and with moddable normal weapons and the damage bonus fixes it's not quite being 'reverted'. What's your idea?

Zeb

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2007, 17:52 »

How about semi-sequential stacking, where all the speed modifiers of one type are grouped together before solving? For example, first 0, 20, 40, or 60 percent are taken off for SoaG. Then 0, 10 or 20 percent of that are taken off of that for Finesse. Then 0, 10, 20, 30, 40, or 50 percent of that are taken off for speed mods/fastload. Then 0 or 40 percent is added for dualgunner(1).

So:

No speed bonus = 1000
Son of a Gun 1 = 800
Son of a Gun 2 = 600
Son of a Gun 3 = 400
Finesse 1 = 360
Finesse 2 =320
Speed Mod 1= 288
Speed Mod 2= 256
Speed Mod 3= 224


In this model, all speed modifiers are still relevant and worth taking as you'll be needing all the speed you can get: they're also not nearly as nerfed as they were in MedO's as you will still be increasing speed by higher percentages than in truly sequentail stacking. For example, Finesse (2) may not look like much, but it gives you 25% more turns which would be a huge advantage. From there, 3 speed mods gives you 42% mod turns. Despite this, you are nt getting the rediculous "Once you find speed mods your speed will magically double" junk that's currently going on. This model is also nice in that Dualgunner(2) will actually be relevant, as you can't just get rid of the DG1 penalty by adding a second speed mod and letting the "reset to 100" failsafe kick in after Dualgunner's penalty has been applied to 0 (and with the penalty, your final speed will be raised to 314! :o). And with extra damage, increased knockback, and all the other goodies that will accompany the new +1 damage per pistol, the game will certainly still be perfectly doable. It just won't be as dependant on speed mods as it was before.
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Zhakdul

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Brute broken, too?
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2007, 09:14 »

Hi there,

as I understand, a "Former Human" has 10 points of life.

If I take "brute", shouldn'd he die after 2 hits with fists ? (1-3 Damage + 4 -> Minimum 5)

In my AoB they die after 3 hits from time to time, even on Lvl1, where they shouldn'd have any amor.

So ist brute broken, too, or did I make a mistake somewehre?

Regards

Zhakdul.
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BDR

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Re: SoG works or not ?
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2007, 15:19 »

Frankly, I think the most viable option I've seen so far (and one I'd be most willing to try, though I still lack the optimism everyone else has over this resulting in something that is still fun) would be to reduce the SoG speed bonus to 10%.  The early game would be quite a bit more difficult, but this way multiple speed mods would no longer be nearly worthless (in fact, you'd need them to get up to high speed), DG 1 would now incur a fair penalty even with max speed gear/traits (max speed being 200 energy, and with DG 1 it would become 280 energy [the former allows you to dispense nearly a full clip; the latter only half before the enemies get a chance to return fire]), and we won't have these blasted stepdown numberings that will make for not only slightly screwy mechanics but also mystery shots because those ones-place numbers added up just right for this or that reason.

This *could* work better in my mind if DG got some overhauling at the same time, or at the very least if damage bonuses given through traits contributed to knockback (it's ridiculous to me that damage mods work fine for this, but not damage enhancing traits).  IMO, DG really needs some buffing to make it more worth the trouble.  The way I see it, pistols require one of three major enhancements: damage, speed, or enemy control (speed slightly overlaps this, but knockback is the other factor to this, especially in open areas where knockback is the only defense against taking return fire).  I see DG as a damage enhancer, and right now the balance is swayed towards speed (which I like, but which people seem to not like as is).  I also see DG wasn't used beyond the first level in 985, and then only for damage.  Now with mods it's hardly used at all.  I think a place to start would be to do one of two things: either fix it so you can place mods on both equipped weapons, or make it so DG2 allows you to switch between two different pistols.  With that, we could finally make use of rapid pistols, or at least be able to use two advanced, heavily modded pistols (I find it terribly ridiculous that advanced pistols are worth as much as normal pistols in AoMr just because you can't mod them, and that only because you can't switch over to them).

EDIT: About Brute... yeah, something's wrong.  I committed suicide by former foos in an AoB game and found that while the trait selection page says you get +4 damage, the end screen says you get +3 for your ToDmgMelee bonus (which is supported by the fact that I had to go through a few foos the first time to get a sarge to survive two hits on cautious, where he ended up as mortally wounded [which thanks to my work on finding HP values and their correspondence to the health descriptions translates to 2 HP; meaning 1+3+1+3 or 8 HP of damage was done in those two hits, the lowest possible result]).
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 15:37 by BDR »
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