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Author Topic: About Shotguns....  (Read 5472 times)

Aki

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About Shotguns....
« on: June 08, 2007, 04:21 »

1. EE VS Shotguns
Is it just me, or does EE not effect shotguns? I never any difference in hit ratio.

2. Reloader and Combat Shotguns
Once again, no effect it seems

3. Double Shotguns VS Combat shotguns
What does the most damage per n turns (Where n=any even number) It seems that the double shotgun does the most damage in the quickest amount of time (shoot 6d3x2, reload) while the combat shotgun (shoot 6d3, 2-turn pump, shoot, ect) It seems that, from my experience, I kill quicker with a Double shotty while my logic says combat shotty should be quicker.

4. Shotguns VS Chaingun
Which do you prefer?
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Malek Deneith

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Re: About Shotguns....
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2007, 14:01 »

@1 - Shotguns always hit so EE can't help them

@2 - The "pump" action lasts only 2 "ticks" if I remember correctly, so it's too fast to get reduced further. Reload and Special Reload should be affected though

@3 - Try digging in wiki - there were damage comparisons done in past.

@4 - I'd say shotgun, but that's just because I'm a shotgun fan... on long term Chaingun might be better, dunno - didn't use them enough to be sure xD
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BDR

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Re: About Shotguns....
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2007, 14:49 »

1 & 2. Malek covered these pretty well.

3. My logic says 6d3 + 6d3 (or 6d3x2) > 6d3, 6d3 in the short term timespan (aka one shot for double shottys, two for cs).  True, you tend to shoot fast enough with the combat shotgun + pumps that in terms of enemy reactions it shouldn't really make a difference, but I'm apt to blame the pumps for increased (real) time on cs kills.  Plus, it may actually be faster in gametime to kill the doubleshotty way if the enemy you're fighting has low enough health/is close enough that you can shred them with one or two doses of double shotty power.  O' course if you're saying that this is true even if you're comparing a single double shot with a full clip of cs shots, then there may be something odd going on.

4. Chaingun, hands down.  Shotguns are kind of fun, but pretty low IMO on the survival kit list once the enemies start ramping up in toughness.  This opinion comes primarily from the fact that chainguns can do more damage in less time, don't require you to get close to put some nice hurt on, and don't tend to have ammo issues.
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Ischaldirh

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Re: About Shotguns....
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2007, 23:16 »

I'm a big fan of the shotguns myself. Blast-for-blast the shotgun definitely deals more damage than the chaingun; yeah, 5-30 damage looks nice on paper, but when you realize not all of those are necessarily going to hit it becomes more like 1-30. Aside from that, with Shottyman and a double shotgun, your attacks become step, shoot, step, shoot; vicious under most conditions. Now if I could just find an advanced double shotgun... :D
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BDR

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Re: About Shotguns....
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2007, 03:50 »

EE does wonders for chainguns (2 EE makes it pretty viable for about most of your bullets to hit in coward mode from what I've heard, and I know from experience that with 2 EE you'll miss at most once in a given volley [which happens maybe every third or fourth volley by conservative estimate; I say making 19 of 20 shots is more than acceptable] while in aggressive mode).  Add SoB and/or Triggerhappy and you have a nasty weapon.  Not to discount moving and shooting with a shotgun, but given the fairly high accuracy of monsters (according to the topic Blade made a little while ago trying to determine accuracy ratings; should still be around somewhere) I'd much prefer to have a little edge with Finesse and rely on moving into cover and out of sight more than misses to keep me alive.
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Karry

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Re: About Shotguns....
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2007, 01:12 »

Shotguns are not worth it right now, because the game balance is built that way.

1. It is firing extremely slow. For example, lev.1 char kills an imp in 2 shots with both a chaingun and a shotgun, on average. However, you might pull off firing twice in a row with a chaingun, whereas after you fire a shotgun once - imp may get enough time to throw his fireball twice. And after THAT you still have to spend another turn reloading.

2. Shotguns get their own dedicated perk, Shottyman. However, it means that if you take it - two levels of Reloader are essentially wasted. Not only that, but you are still pretty vulnerable while reloading, so you must also get Hellrunner, and STILL firing pretty slow, so you must also get Finesse...
Look at pistols now. You take two levels of Son of a Gun - you get access to Dualgunner, but Son of a Gun levels keep working for you ! Well, they are broken now, but they should, in theory, anyway.

3. If that was not enough - further in the game shotgun ammo gradually stops appearing. Chaingun ammo is still plentiful.

I love shotguns, but in recent versions i am rather reluctant to even try winning a game solely with them.
Track earlier versions, shotguns were stronger then.
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Behrooz Wolf

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Re: About Shotguns....
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2007, 19:08 »

Quote
Look at pistols now. You take two levels of Son of a Gun - you get access to Dualgunner, but Son of a Gun levels keep working for you ! Well, they are broken now, but they should, in theory, anyway.

Oh, I'm pretty sure that all aspects of son of a gun work now. >:D  Tell it to all the AVs who died without getting a shot off in my last AoMR game...
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Ischaldirh

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Re: About Shotguns....
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2007, 20:01 »

The point you raised about shottyman I must agree with. However, I never use SOLEY any one weapon. Usually I use pistol and shotty for the first few, using the shotty for the first volly and then switching over for a clip of pistol, then drop the pistol for the chaingun, and eventually either the shotty or the CG gets left for a rocket launcher. And having a few levels of Reloader REALLY helps with the RL, particularly at the Wall. And later when I start dealing with gangs of tough and angry monsters I start using the RL more and more. So the reloader levels don't go entirely to waste...
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Karry

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Re: About Shotguns....
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2007, 22:00 »

Quote
Oh, I'm pretty sure that all aspects of son of a gun work now. >:D  Tell it to all the AVs who died without getting a shot off in my last AoMR game...
Well, if you know the code better than Kornel himself, then maybe i will believe your words. Or you're talking about the beta ?
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Fingerzam

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Re: About Shotguns....
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2007, 03:09 »

1. It is firing extremely slow. For example, lev.1 char kills an imp in 2 shots with both a chaingun and a shotgun, on average. However, you might pull off firing twice in a row with a chaingun, whereas after you fire a shotgun once - imp may get enough time to throw his fireball twice. And after THAT you still have to spend another turn reloading.

Umm, I think every weapon takes the exact same time for shooting, which is 1000 energy.

2. Shotguns get their own dedicated perk, Shottyman. However, it means that if you take it - two levels of Reloader are essentially wasted. Not only that, but you are still pretty vulnerable while reloading, so you must also get Hellrunner, and STILL firing pretty slow, so you must also get Finesse...
Look at pistols now. You take two levels of Son of a Gun - you get access to Dualgunner, but Son of a Gun levels keep working for you ! Well, they are broken now, but they should, in theory, anyway.

This was already pointed out, but the levels in reloader really help with rocket launcher. And shottyman really is a nice a trait for double shotty lovers like me, so I don't mind spending two levels of reloader before that, especially when they help you before you get shottyman.

3. If that was not enough - further in the game shotgun ammo gradually stops appearing. Chaingun ammo is still plentiful.

This is true. Biggest reason for this is that there are two kinds of former humans dropping you ammo for chaingun, and the other drops a nice total of 150, while you only get shells from former sergeants, and even then you only get 30. I've completed games where I mainly use only double shotty and RL when needed. You can get through this by hoarding enough shells earlier, but still I usually ran out of shells on floor 23 or 24 (cleared these with RL and then killed Cybie with my BFG's).

I love shotguns, but in recent versions i am rather reluctant to even try winning a game solely with them.
Track earlier versions, shotguns were stronger then.

I like shotguns too, and use them often outside AoB/AoMr. I can agree that Chaingun is perhaps a better weapon and that the ammo issue is a serious one, but I still prefer shotguns. After you've cleared CoS with shottyman and double shotgun, you too will love them. :D
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HouseCat

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Re: About Shotguns....
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2007, 12:45 »

Hey all. Yeah, I've only just started playing the DooM RogueLike today...uhh...yesterday...Damn midnight, making days change...Anyway...A complete newbie's opinion...

The combat shotgun works pretty well, holds five shots, In the arena i was 'lucky' enough to have pinkies (the demons, nickname taken from the novel) first, so it was stand-shoot-reload for the most part. Managed to pull off arena champion on the first try using only the Combat Shotty. The basic shotgun...I dunno, it was actually a nice surprise to have it with plentiful ammo early on...But reloading a new shell after every shot, instead of just pumping a new round,  annoyed me

I've noticed shottyman hanging around, but never used it. I instead went for son of a gun, expecting this to be more like classic Doom1 and 2, where i relied pretty heavily on the pistol for the first few levels....Also the idea of a DooM marine packing dual pistols appeals to me for some reason...mew...

I havent really gotten that far, so i cant comment on ammunition difficulties

Again, Just started playing. I prefer the shotgun and chaingun over the Rocket launcher...Mainly because i do alot of 'panic range' combat...where the splash damage would probably kill me.
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DisaffectedBeta

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Re: About Shotguns....
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2007, 06:59 »

On shotguns vs. chainguns, one of my strategies have been to rely on both.  I up my juggler right at the beginning, and have a top level shotgun (double barrel preferred) as my sidearm.  I use the chaingun most, especially when I'm trying to do pinpoint attacks to avoid blowing up barrels (or to purposefully blow them up), but if an enemy gets too close, or a group gets really close together, I do the switch to shotgun and grind them to meat.

They're sorta like chocolate and peanut butter for me, although my tactic leaves me vulnerable because I've used up skills that I could be putting into defense.  If I survive long enough, I also build up the damage bonus until I get the two extra shots perk.

In general, I've not been able to build my guy up as much as I did in the previous game because I die before I really get enough exp. to do much good. :)
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