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Other Roguelikes => AliensRL => Topic started by: Game Hunter on September 25, 2011, 14:49

Title: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: Game Hunter on September 25, 2011, 14:49
(I should preface this by saying this is what "I" think would make AliensRL more enjoyable than it is now. It includes tweaks as well as completely new ideas. More than saying what's good and bad about my own suggestions, replies to this should simply assert the poster's own ideas. Also, this will be pretty wall-of-text, and the title came from Kornel, so there you go.)

Introduction

I've been playing AliensRL a fair bunch now, as I did in the past. While the game is fun, it tends to get tedious fairly quickly, especially since the combat mechanics aren't as fast-paced as in, say, DoomRL (and yet the need for its existence is just as prevalent). The causes of this tedium can be roughly summarized in the following:


With these things in mind, I present to this community a rather large number of wide-ranging suggestions that can alleviate or eliminate these concerns.

Tower Design

Perhaps the most important part of introducing any player to a game lies in the board on which the game is played. For AliensRL, this is the tower structure. As a whole, we have a layout like so:
Military Tower    ----- Storage Tower ------------
      |                    |                      \
      |                    |                       \
      |                    |                       |
Security Tower    ----- Main Tower   ------- Civilian Tower
      |                    |                       |
      \                    |                       |
       \                   |                       |
        ------------ Engineering Tower -----  Medical Tower
The towers themselves are all of equal size and removing from one tower to the other takes no time at all. In addition, all corridors in the towers are built such that there are four equal partitions on each level of each tower, resulting in plenty of dead ends and some wasted space. We have a few possibilities for improvements here:
Missions and Clearance

Missions are, currently, non-existent, save the overarching objective of killing the queen (and then escaping). All locations in the game, on the other hand, are pretty much fully accessible, and you are limited by the requirement of two keys, security and military, although it is obvious that other possibilities are expected (given that there are actual placeholders for other keys).

To start, I would change the access-restricting mechanics from needing keys for every door to requiring clearance to a particular level of a particular tower. Depending on the tower, this will greatly change what you can actually explore, but personnel rooms will always require some kind of clearance (but tend to have pretty good stuff in them). There will be a number of possible ways to get past clearance (having someone else's clearance by means of their card, hacking/accessing the tower's data to give yourself clearance, brute-forcing doors open) so that all classes have some means to do so without relying on dumb luck to get what you need.

Some clearance will be more useful than others. Military and security clearance, for instance, will allow you to get into restricted civilian and main tower areas on roughly the same level, and sometimes you'll need engineering clearance to access, say, the boiler room (or whatever heating system is used), regardless of where that is located. There will be no storage clearance: instead, whatever tower is responsible for a particular section of the tower will have its own clearance.

Based on this, we can tweak a lot of things:

This changes the pace of the game, of course, but so long as clearance for the level above is guaranteed SOMEWHERE on the current one, it shouldn't affect things too much. (As I said before, the options to get through restrictions should be fairly numerous anyway.)

So there are probably a ton of ideas for missions. But let's generalize a bit to building plot devices for the player by scattering pieces of information about the base through typographical information: Bulletin boards, bloody words scrawled on walls, letters, terminals (active or need to be started up somehow). This will provide three awesome additions to the game:

At the start of the game, the player should have a clear thing-to-do when they get here, something that was ordered by their superior(s). This should be class-dependent and semi-random (so that a player isn't always trying to do the very same thing every time they pick a particular class). Details on possible missions will go into the class section of the post. However, the player will NOT know anything about the alien queen or that they need to kill it: to this extent, there could even be some soft barriers (e.g., emergency-activated turrets guarding special areas) to prevent the player from accidentally stumbling into something they probably shouldn't yet try to accomplish. For all the player knows, they were sent for some routine maintenance and/or debriefing.

As the game progresses, missions should revolve mostly on go-to quests, although they will most often be one-way (that is, your mission is to go somewhere to do something, not go somewhere to find something for something else). Depending on the direction of the game, we can have some NPCs that have managed to stay safe and want you to take care of some things (at which point you will probably be told of the infestation and its source), as well as some NPCs that are barely alive and are able to tell you what should be done before they die. Obviously none of the missions are "mission-critical", so to speak: failing to complete a mission won't ever screw you over completely. For this reason, missions won't actually give the player experience, although what you do during the mission may be worth extra experience here and there (manipulating objects successfully, fixing various problems in the base, maybe even finding an object of particular importance to the player).

Alternatively (or in addition to) the missions will come from what remains of the base's electronic system of data. Most of the computers will be separate from the server but should have information useful to the player (maps that show where high-clearance rooms are (nice equipment) or contain excess heat signatures (aliens)), while the few that are able to access the main server will give the player the majority of objects that they can do (finding ways to deactivate parts of the tower to avoid clearance, accessing storage for powerful gear, ultimately defeating the queen).

This is just a rough outline because a lot depends on the ability of the plot writers and the desired direction of development. The end result should be good regardless and making actual missions should come fairly easily once the background is determined.

Player Inventory and Environmental Utilization

Right now the current inventory is very, very limited. This mostly has to do with a lack of items in general but, even then, the restrictions on the player are forced in some areas. First and foremost, I suggest that the player's limit to three weapons is expanded so that lighter weapons can occupy the heavier slots. This would mean that a player could wield three pistols, or two pistols and an SMG, or a pistol and two SMGs, or a pistol, an SMG, and a smartgun. The fact that the player can't occupy these slots currently with obviously-smaller equipment is arbitrary: if there are problems with a player being able to use, for instance, all three sidearms, this should be addressed as a balance issue instead of a fundamental one. (The switching between weapons can still be the same, at least roughly, if that is the concern.)

One of the nicer results of this is that the player now have three "inventory" slots, rather than a slot for each weapon category specifically, which means that we can start to include some items that would go in one of these slots without actually being a weapon. Some obvious possibilities:

While we're on the subject of inventory-like changes, I think grenades should have a "total" count, so you could hold 9 frag grenades but none of the others if you wanted to. This lets the player stock up on more useful grenades later on.

The player should be able to interact with their environment a lot more than they can now. At the moment it's pretty much limited to opening and closing doors, destroying barrels, and collecting items from stuff that holds items. We can do a little better:

The terminals mentioned earlier should have ways to turn them on, accessed (either by clearance or "hacking"), and possibly used to control parts of the tower depending on their function. Having turrets controlled by the terminal is a good way to include them into the game, allowing the player to activate or deactivate them depending on their needs.

Class Development

As mentioned previously, the classes are pretty bland in terms of how they're different from one other. Based on the above suggestions, we can include distinctions such as:

This is the easy stuff. Naturally the plot can be pretty different for each class as well, as well as the kinds of missions that show up.

Alien Patterns

More of a list of potentials than anything else.


That's all of it, at least for now. Like I said, please add your own stuff, but I highly recommend keeping to simple and effective solutions (not ones that require huge changes to the mechanics, for instance).
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: LordSloth on September 25, 2011, 20:24

P.S. A failed attempt to speedrun 0.8 was pretty exciting. Made it to medical 7, eng6, security6 before dying. Despite often having less than 20 pistol rounds and spawning elites. No military key to face the queen, sadly. It may be an interesting source of inspiration or an alternate game mode rather than the more current, deliberative pace, perhaps. http://pastebin.com/WHB985F6
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: Gargulec on October 01, 2011, 12:50
What can I say, I agree with every word, comma and period GH wrote in his awesome post, like to the last one. He perfectly portrayed my own vision of the game, so I even cannot add anything meaningful apart from crying "MORE PLOT!" again and again.

Awesome ideas, awesome write-up.

As for the story itself:

It should be discovered via numerous apocalyptic logs (video logs, journals - the classics) spread around the complex. However, not all of the available story information should be generated for each game: only a fraction. This way, to discover entire story and all datapads and such, it would take a number of games. Each "completed" set of the logs could unlock a little something in-game: a special mission, an access to a restricted area and such. But more importantly, a special ending should be created for those diligent enough to over a span of many games would discover all logs written.
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: skarczew on October 04, 2011, 12:42
Great post, although lots of those changes have been already mentioned :P .
Main problem is that the game is meant to be simple (coffee-break & fast). Adding more complexity may make it even longer.

Additionally, I see the following problems:

Quote
Lack of distinction between classes.
There is, believe it or not ;) . But should be more visible, yep.
Quote
aliens ALWAYS charge
Nope. They will not if they don't see you. Also, some of aliens move even if they do not see the player.
Quote
excess heat signatures (aliens)
(...)
detect heat (find aliens)
Killing excessive heat sources is funny, as long as you do not realize that you are killing human beings :D . Good thriller idea, though.
Quote
though Civilian should probably have pretty decent breakage chances anyway, since there will be almost no clearance for ascending on them
Restricting it does not feel good. Civilian should be a walk in the park, not grind.
Quote
Medics can fire an aimed shot (surgical precision!)
Now, that is wrong. More healing, less killing.
Quote
Flashlight
(...)
Light Clip
"I will lit an area around / next to me and those stupid animals won't see me, for sure."
Quote
Technicians come with a crowbar and fixing device
Better make it 2 tools: all-around electronic devices' repairing tool; mini welding torch for all around fixes of mechanical equipment.
Quote
Medics will want to find people hurting and fix them up.
Hahahaha...
"I will fix you ...with my hands alone!"
Quote
Some sort of special ability or trait is in order
There are already ...but more won't hurt.

LAst, but not the least: imho it would be good to leave AliensRL as a simple, fast-paced game, and create AliensRL 2 with all those ideas and complexity in mind.
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: Game Hunter on October 04, 2011, 15:20
Oh...erm...I was under the impression that AliensRL was going to head into the direction of being a longer game rather than a shorter one, especially with the advent of missions. Since the game is intended to be more surprise and horror than shock and react (ala DoomRL) I always figured that the game would place you into situations where you would really have to think about your options, rather than jumping from one room to the next. Something like a redistribution of enemies and items (denser packets but farther and fewer between) would change the dynamic significantly, which is something I would prefer. Ideally it shouldn't feel and play "like DoomRL but with the Aliens theme", and evolve into something very different.

Regarding your comments (because, for some reason, quote pyramids are impossible without being done manually):


Deciding whether or not the game's pace should be slower or faster (and the consequences of such a change) is the very reason we need more discussion here, so keep your replies coming!
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: skarczew on October 06, 2011, 19:27
AliensRL is not like DoomRL. The area is much bigger, strategy is a bit different, and the game itself has a great area of improvement.

Few more thoughts:
- Redistribution of Aliens should be done - but this may come with the creation of real vents;
- Using heat detector ...is a wrong idea; Aliens do not emit heat; it can be clearly seen in the games like AvP where the Predator is using Thermal Vision mode to kill Humans, but against Aliens it needs to switch to totally different Electromagnetic Spectrum vision mode;
  http://youtu.be/ldV0IpYS7Rk?hd=1
  Marines were limited to Motion Scanner/Tracker and Image Intensifier, with some Flares here and there; Motion Scanner should detect all kind of movement - not only Aliens, and Image Intensifier was always working as a fuzzy nightvision;
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=0qcKXXocbDg
- Vision as a cone won't work - the player will just move forward and back every few steps; Additionally, everyone need to remember that Aliens do NOT need light or anything; Even more, as an Alien player in AvP I was always destroying sources of light to make it even more intimate for Human players :P ; Aliens sense everything, and there is no exception; Aside from "sense" mode they got "navigation" mode, which can be used in the total darkness to see objects (different than walking-marine-healing-packs);
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afx8X7ro4kU
  I am not sure how "worker" type can be done, but allowing every hunter / warrior class alien to see almost everything is logical; they should regroup outside human sight range, try to encircle, try to ambush; this would be especially deadly when few of them jump on a player in low light areas;
- An example of "self-fix" equipment:
  http://youtu.be/5ESeaHfTwb4?t=50s
  http://youtu.be/g8BYYlsNvZw?t=3m10s
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on October 07, 2011, 18:16
Vision as a cone is the dreaded "lighthouse syndrome" :>

On a more serious note -- this topic has reality changing powers (tm) -- a 0.8.5 version is in the works.
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: skarczew on October 08, 2011, 05:30
Vision as a cone is the dreaded "lighthouse syndrome" :>

On a more serious note -- this topic has reality changing powers (tm) -- a 0.8.5 version is in the works.
I agree about vision cone.

Regarding the topic - a lot of ideas have been put into other topics, I guess you can look into them as well ;) .

And maybe one question:
Kornel, how do you see AliensRL: as a simple and fast paced game, or maybe something longer and more complicated?
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on October 08, 2011, 15:40
I think it won't get popular as a simple and fast paced game. I always intended it to be more complex, but not necessarily longer. The possibilities, situations, missions may change from playthrough to the other, but a full run should still be doable in one sitting.
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: Game Hunter on October 10, 2011, 09:37
I think it won't get popular as a simple and fast paced game. I always intended it to be more complex, but not necessarily longer. The possibilities, situations, missions may change from playthrough to the other, but a full run should still be doable in one sitting.
In a way, this implies that the pace can be slow so long as the necessary requirements for completion remain simple and relatively accessable. This can be difficult to balance, especially from the perspective of a new player: knowing "what to do" can mean the difference between playing for thirty minutes and playing for several hours. The pace of a game can often skew this kind of result, so the addition of things like missions and plot must be added with care if we want playtime to remain fairly consistent.

AliensRL is not like DoomRL. The area is much bigger, strategy is a bit different, and the game itself has a great area of improvement.
The map size is very different, but this only has an affect on pace; the developmental direction can be very different, and should; the strategy, specifically the combat tactics, are very similar to DoomRL's, and since combat is a large part of a game where there is little else to do, we should seriously consider changing the style of combat. There are lots of ways to do this: change of enemy distribution (as mentioned before), position-based lighting that affects accuracy, AI that seeks to ambush the player, literal tactical options (like in DoomRL but more towards the cautious/coward version), and the list can go on.

In particular:
Using heat detector ...is a wrong idea; Aliens do not emit heat; (...) Marines were limited to Motion Scanner/Tracker and Image Intensifier, with some Flares here and there; Motion Scanner should detect all kind of movement - not only Aliens, and Image Intensifier was always working as a fuzzy nightvision;
I don't mind staying consistent with the Aliens universe, and it's good that you bring it up. However, if I'm not mistaken, this game is set at a time when the "Alien species" was virtually unknown. If this is the case, we need to be careful in introducing certain equipment or, at the very least, keep such equipment rare, since there's no reason for it to be all over the place. Motion scanners would probably be limited to the Security Tower, and image intensifier headsets would likely only be issued in the Military Tower, though perhaps certain classes could start with one or the other based on what you'd expect them to think is necessary equipment. We can also think up some antiquated equivalents that would appear in other towers (surely the Engineering Tower would have something like a motion scanner or image intensifier).

A thermal detector as a means to find other humans could still be an option. This is assuming that NPCs will be added, of course.

Vision as a cone won't work - the player will just move forward and back every few steps; Additionally, everyone need to remember that Aliens do NOT need light or anything; Even more, as an Alien player in AvP I was always destroying sources of light to make it even more intimate for Human players :P ; Aliens sense everything, and there is no exception; Aside from "sense" mode they got "navigation" mode, which can be used in the total darkness to see objects (different than walking-marine-healing-packs);
What I get from this is that aliens should basically have full vision (distance can be figured out case-by-case) regardless of the light sources present. Thus it is the player's job to make sure they're around light sources as often as possible, which alone remarkably affects the combat mechanics in a positive, horror-like way. Regarding aliens that seek to destroy light sources, I would limit this to the more intelligent aliens and, to some extent, worker-type aliens who may have been assigned with the task of removing or relocating them.

Although it's a bit redundant, you may want to start collecting your ideas from older threads and adding them here, such that they are more easily findable.
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: bgrunge on October 11, 2011, 01:38
In regards to NPCs and narrative, a few things. Aliens was profoundly different from Alien, in that it focused less on ripley, and more on the survivors in general; it had memorable secondary characters like vasquez, Hicks, Hudson, Bishop, and Newt, and these added a reason for the protagonist (Ripley) to fight the aliens beyond pure selfish survival, unlike the first movie in the series. Indeed, the biggest showdown in the movie comes as the result of Ripley risking herself to save Newt; an action she could have decided against.

As well, another interesting thing to note is that unlike Alien, the goals of the protagonist and her allies in Aliens change over the course of the movie (in alien, the only goal ever was to kill the alien/survive). First, the goal is to investigate the colony. Then, the goal is to rescue the cutoff marines; then, (after the dropship crash) to reach a transmitter to secure a ride off the planet; then, to survive until the dropship arrived, and then to rescue Newt; then, to kill the queen. This is a more compelling narrative for gameplay purposes; each of these goals could be considered a link in a quest chain, and provide the player with interim goals beyond just building up to kill the queen.

So, I'd propose a few ways the narrative could be enriched.

1.) Base the game and its goals around a colony command centre hub which assigns goals to the player, and whose population changes procedurally based upon game events and current alien infestation levels, etc. Give the player the ability to bring NPCs with them, and to deploy defenses in this area to reduce casualties as they are accomplishing goals elsewhere. (casualties will of course be inevitable, and will mount as the severity of the infestation and scale of attacks increases) Imagine going off to repair a damaged power grid connection to restore access to an area and having a key NPC grabbed while you were gone, which affects the narrative flow; a side objective this NPC would have offered may no longer be available as a result. HOWEVER, the game could be designed with the expectancy of one or more key NPCs getting killed before offering their quests; (say, you have 10 key NPCs. they all have 2 objectives to offer. In an average game, you should be completing on average 10 objectives, meaning that the game is designed with the expectation of 5 of them getting snatched before offering an objective). This allows for a procedural narrative, which is different every game. This makes the game random and non-linear, while still providing solid sequential goals for the player.

2.) Begin the game not after significant infestation, but right at the very beginning of it; I.E., after the first alien related casualty occurs. This allows early goals to be based around "Bug Hunts", where the player is investigating disappearances, or hunting down a lone alien or two. This provides a natural contrast with the larger pitched battles that might occur later in the game, makes the early game much more suspenseful, and involves the player more strongly with his objectives; the faster he can get things done, the more colonists may survive. (Note that the game should be balanced such that it is a challenge to keep any amount of civilians alive to the end of the game, and a significant one to keep a moderate amount of them alive)

3.) Cast the protagonist of AliensRL as not a member of the military, but as a civilian member of the colony; the classes would be roughly analogous; Security, Surveyor, and Engineer would match up to Marine, Scout, and Technician in turn. This would allow the player to observe and selectively participate in events beyond their control, such as the conflict of the local marine garrison with the alien infestation at appropriate infestation levels. Say narrative-wise, that the marines are uncooperative and not interested in investigating the disappearance of one or two colonists at first, as they consider that a civil matter; this necessitates the player's involvement. Later, after the player has bagged an alien or two, and proved there is a threat, the military starts sending out patrols procedurally. When the appropriate large scale conflict/rescue operation is planned, participating in the operation could be an option available to the player, leading to the type of situation seen in aliens, where the marine squad is inevitably overwhelmed, and has to fall back. Being in the middle of a firefight like that could be quite fun, IMO.

4.) As infestation levels increase, large scale raids should occur on the inhabited sections at night, with random abductions happening during the day. During raids, alien encounters in non-inhabited sections should decrease. this makes the player consider the time he is exploring, and adds in a tactical question: do I try to help defend the colonists, or continue my objective, knowing that it will be easier since the aliens are busy kidnapping kids to infect and such?

5.) This is a smaller narrative idea, but I'd suggest that "towers" be replaced with "complexes". In the movie, the only tower was the cooling tower for the atmospheric processing array. Everything else was a complex, which had nowhere near the same vertical height. In fact, youll notice the command center complex is only about 3 stories tall, with a few levels apparent below ground. Since the cooling tower is gonna be alien central, having it be very tall and filled with catwalks and such would provide for very different combat than in a military or residential complex, say, where potential alien access is limited to certain points. On a separate note, if such points were generated along with the map, this would let the player identify such points and attempt to move NPCs, weld doors, and position sentry guns to prevent such intrusions as much as possible, and aid in defending against the progressively increasing alien raids. (note that sentry guns balance wise should not be available till after the marines are pretty much decimated, as until they are, they are not too cool on a civilian accessing military grade hardware.) The cooling tower, on the other hand, is far too open to really control passage of aliens in any significant way; there are hardly any doors to weld, aliens can appear anywhere on a catwalk (since they could climb up from below onto it), and in general its far more combat oriented as a result.

Anyways, I think having things like that would make the game more compelling from a narrative perspective.
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: szopin on October 12, 2011, 13:19
I would actually prefer the game to keep its UI as simple as it is now. Sure, flashlight would be great (that damned storage tower grrrr) same with crowbar, but inventory management is something that currently is non-existing and the game can be played with few keys = awesome. Vents/between tower areas would be nice, facehuggers, hive with eggs, or 'survivors' would add flavour. NPCs yes yes yes. Having a team of marines arrive for your extraction few days after sending SOS from radio tower and cooperating against hordes would also be cool (second movie-likish). This game has a LOT of potential, really looking forward to 0.8.5
EDIT: flares (like grenades - 4 maybe?) get some vision further down that corridor and shoot the bastards before they reach you. Would be awesome with npc marines and keeping perimeter while someone fixes that goddamn radio...
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: skarczew on October 13, 2011, 12:22
Quote
I don't mind staying consistent with the Aliens universe, and it's good that you bring it up. However, if I'm not mistaken, this game is set at a time when the "Alien species" was virtually unknown. If this is the case, we need to be careful in introducing certain equipment or, at the very least, keep such equipment rare, since there's no reason for it to be all over the place. Motion scanners would probably be limited to the Security Tower, and image intensifier headsets would likely only be issued in the Military Tower, though perhaps certain classes could start with one or the other based on what you'd expect them to think is necessary equipment. We can also think up some antiquated equivalents that would appear in other towers (surely the Engineering Tower would have something like a motion scanner or image intensifier).
Nightvision exists nowadays, Motion Scanner was something developed before the people had knowledge about aliens. Equipment could work in a slot - you can use only one at a time.

Quote
What I get from this is that aliens should basically have full vision (distance can be figured out case-by-case) regardless of the light sources present. Thus it is the player's job to make sure they're around light sources as often as possible, which alone remarkably affects the combat mechanics in a positive, horror-like way. Regarding aliens that seek to destroy light sources, I would limit this to the more intelligent aliens and, to some extent, worker-type aliens who may have been assigned with the task of removing or relocating them.
The way it looks like in AvP series, the basic vision is similar to human one. The difference are: field of view - the cone is wider (can translate to bigger distances in roguelike), and the aura (even in total darkness, an alien is able to sense living organisms, but that doesn't mean it can see other objects; in recent version of AvP it went even further - an alien can sense targets through walls, and can sense how hostile is the given organism).
Second mode is just a very strange negative-like mode, thanks to which it can see in total darkness (but the range is limited and seeing other organisms is much more harder).
Check the links I post.

Of course AI should depend on the age, type and few other factors.
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: bgrunge on October 14, 2011, 01:31
2nding the motion scanner thing: The motion scanner was standard colonial marine equipment, same as pulse rifles, smart guns, and flamethrowers. It was not a response to the alien presence in any way. In fact, in Aliens, there is no equipment shown PERIOD that was designed to fight aliens. remember, as of that time, their existence was unknown. (well, except to ripley)
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: skarczew on October 15, 2011, 18:47
(well, except to ripley)
Also creators of the better worlds, Weyland-Yutani Corp.
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: bgrunge on October 18, 2011, 16:45
Also creators of the better worlds, Weyland-Yutani Corp.

No, they were genuinely clueless in alien and aliens. Remember, they were investigating a signal in alien, but what that signal was was unknown. In aliens, the execs have no idea what happened 75 years ago; they didnt get the memo about a company order to investigate a signal, and they arent interested in looking one up, since it makes them liable. Burke acted on his own when he sent the colonists out to explore the crash site.
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: skarczew on October 19, 2011, 12:26
I haven't watched the movies for a long time ...but from what I remember:

In Alien:
Ash has been ordered to return the Alien to the Nostromo's corporate employers even at the expense of the crew's lives. He did not decide to do it on his own.

Aliens:
Burke, who ordered the colonists to investigate the derelict spaceship where the Nostromo crew first encountered the Alien eggs, knew about alien and planned to get it to company laboratories where he can profit from their use as biological weapons.
It does not seem to me that he acted on his own.
Ripley's report about alien, events on Nostromo, its destruction, must have been known to high W-Y authorities and thats the way Burke learned about it and reason why he contacted her.
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: bgrunge on October 19, 2011, 15:04
I haven't watched the movies for a long time ...but from what I remember:

In Alien:
Ash has been ordered to return the Alien to the Nostromo's corporate employers even at the expense of the crew's lives. He did not decide to do it on his own.

Aliens:
Burke, who ordered the colonists to investigate the derelict spaceship where the Nostromo crew first encountered the Alien eggs, knew about alien and planned to get it to company laboratories where he can profit from their use as biological weapons.
It does not seem to me that he acted on his own.
Ripley's report about alien, events on Nostromo, its destruction, must have been known to high W-Y authorities and thats the way Burke learned about it and reason why he contacted her.

Ash WAS ordered to do that, but that does not mean the company knew about the alien before it was discovered. He had either talked to them without Dallas's authorization after recovery of the specimen, OR there was a standing order to bring back new discovered lifeforms.

Burke was Ripley's corporate contact regarding the hearings over her actions in scuttling the ship in Alien. He was present for her deposition; thats how he knew about the aliens. Whereas the rest of the panel blew it off as crazy talk, burke took initiative and told the colonists to check out her story, but PRIVATELY. He admits as much when ripley confronts him: She says something like "Directive, signed Burke, Carter J. You sent them out there, and you didint even WARN them! Why didn't you warn them Burke?" Where he says, "Ok, look, what if that ship didnt even exist; alright, you think about that? I didnt know. So you make a major security situation out of it, and then everybody steps in, administrative steps in, and there is no exclusive rights for anybody. Nobody wins! I made a decision, and it was wrong, it was a bad call, ripley, a bad call."

Pretty clearly illustrates that he was acting independently.
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: skarczew on October 20, 2011, 15:54
Sounds quite probable :) . Still, for some reason, I do not trust Burke at all. It won't be the first time when he says something and thinks exactly opposite.
Quote
Ripley: Just tell me one thing, Burke. You're going out there to destroy them, right? Not to study. Not to bring back. But to wipe them out.
Burke: That's the plan. You have my word on it.
Ripley: All right, I'm in.
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: bgrunge on October 23, 2011, 06:10
agreed, but you have to consider motive. He had no motive to lie and take responsibility himself. In fact, he had more motive to try and displace responsibility onto weyland/yutani, since it would have made him seem less personally culpable. (the whole "just following orders" thing) The fact that he doesnt do that, but instead admits what happened, is probably him just finally cracking under the stress of the situation. Tipping the facehuggers over after that was probably an extension of that; a desperate move made by a desperate man. And hed only have reason to be that desperate if he was, indeed, solely responsible.
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: Jovian on November 04, 2011, 09:10
Howdy, I've just joined and thought I'd add some ideas:

1. Randomise the layout of the towers. I think this would be fairly easy to implement. Just imagine, with this you could play through a game with a more civilian bent (two civilian towers, some kind of recreation tower), a mining colony (massive central storage tower, mining equipment) or a research station (overall scientific theme).

2. The inclusion of "fresh meat", weak, frankly dim allies which you'd begin the game with; their sole purpose is to get snatched in order to buy you time during the beginning phase.

3. Expanded classes, which aren't designed to be balanced, there would be achievements just for completing the game as each class since each one would be a mode unto itself.
I'm thinking:
Marine
Heavy Weapons Specialist
Scout
Medic
Technician
-
Android = A synthetic robot that looks exactly like a human. Since their creation is, I imagine, expensive as Hell, it makes sense they'd be owned by a big corporation, making each one designed for their most obvious use, special operations and recon. They would be much more durable than a human, with a stealthy skill set, but wouldn't be over the top in power.

Worker = An all rounder, begins with some handy tool and decent body armour, all skill costs are average. Since they are native to the tower, they would likely have more fresh meat with them than the other classes, further, they might even be competent to a point.

Prisoner = Begins with very little, but is an uncompromising badass that levels quicker than the other classes. Any fresh meat hanging around the Prisoner would be disloyal, if not outright violent. Choosing this class would obviously generate a prison area of which to escape from.

Scientist = The living opposite of the Worker, they would be able to "research" the aliens in order to better combat them as well as having a "high clearance rating" which allows them to enter sealed areas and get free stuff from wall vendors. They might also be able to convince people to work for them, running on the movie trope that people listen to scientists.

4. Alternate Goals:
1. Kill the Queen.
2. Escape in a ship. Requires others to help man it, a weak victory. May involve a time limit or combat against marines defending it as the place is on lock-down.
3. Rig up a communications station and contact some government body that will send marines to save you...or nuke you from orbit. Bad ending.
4. Escape the towers. Travel beyond the tower in an astronaut suit in a buggy. A fade to black style ending, alluding that this is just a prolonged suicide. Plus it might mean you've let the aliens out into the wilder reaches of the planet.
5. Destroy whatever makes the oxygen (and possibly gravity?) of the towers, killing everything. Another bad ending.

I think, while not exactly missions, would add a lot to the game.

Thats my lot for now, cheers!
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on November 04, 2011, 19:10
BTW, in case anyone wonders, work on the next version is seriously underway, so this topic is quite hot for me!
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: skarczew on November 05, 2011, 10:50
Some of older topics with lots of ideas, for those interested in it :P :

http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,3177.0.html
http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,3139.0.html
http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,3179.0.html
http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,4215.0.html
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: Jovian on November 05, 2011, 11:04
BTW, in case anyone wonders, work on the next version is seriously underway, so this topic is quite hot for me!

Great! Hope it's going well for ya Kornel.

I was just thinking about allies, and while proper A.I may be difficult, if there was a series of "mindsets", that each one could possibly have, it might give the illusion of personalities, for instance:

Joe - Wanders around waiting to get snatched. Returns to the main group regularly.
Scavenger - Picks up random items, not including, or less likely, ammunition and med kits. If items can be taken from them, picking up ammo could actually be useful. Travels some distance from the player, often the first to die, as greedy people die first in horror.

Coward - Struggles to move from safe areas, then rushes to the side of the player after a time. Runs from aliens. Will become disloyal when presented with a more powerful group, such as marines or corporative officials.
Innocent - Travels near the player when possible. Hides during combat, but will attack if the player is taking excessive damage.

Butch - Travel ahead of the player, in a supposed leadership. Relatively brave, maybe to the point of getting killed because he thinks he can stand still and shoot the aliens down with a pistol.
Veteran - Travels fairly near, at the right, left or behind the player. Takes pot shots at the aliens whilst moving backwards or to the side. Occasionally wanders off to pick up ammo.

Backstabber - Disloyal from the start, will leave the player of his own accord or join another group when possible.
Psychopath - May act as a veteran for a time, but there is always a chance he could flip and try to kill the player and his allies. He might have a tick of standing behind the player more often before he goes crazy.
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: skarczew on November 05, 2011, 16:37
3. Expanded classes, which aren't designed to be balanced, there would be achievements just for completing the game as each class since each one would be a mode unto itself.
(...)
Android = A synthetic robot that looks exactly like a human. Since their creation is, I imagine, expensive as Hell, it makes sense they'd be owned by a big corporation, making each one designed for their most obvious use, special operations and recon. They would be much more durable than a human, with a stealthy skill set, but wouldn't be over the top in power.
Wrong way. Androids should act as a different race, as they could do different tasks (soldier, medic, etc) while still being an android.
I once saw some approach, that androids were better than humans in almost everything - except for the fact they could not be healed once damaged (or it was very hard/expensive).
The only "stealthy" thing that androids had in AvP games was the fact they did not emit pheromones like the humans, thus making them somehow invisible for aliens in darkness.

Worker = An all rounder, begins with some handy tool and decent body armour, all skill costs are average. Since they are native to the tower, they would likely have more fresh meat with them than the other classes, further, they might even be competent to a point.
How is worker different from technician?

Prisoner = Begins with very little, but is an uncompromising badass that levels quicker than the other classes. Any fresh meat hanging around the Prisoner would be disloyal, if not outright violent. Choosing this class would obviously generate a prison area of which to escape from.
This is some kind of "flavour" and not a real class, imo... A prisoner may have been a soldier, technician, civilian, etc in the past.

2. Escape in a ship. Requires others to help man it, a weak victory. May involve a time limit or combat against marines defending it as the place is on lock-down.
First, you would need to contact someone to send a dropship to you, and that is almost the same as:
3. Rig up a communications station and contact some government body that will send marines to save you...or nuke you from orbit. Bad ending.
Actually, they may send marines, but that may not end the game - you still would have to do some work there (kill marines and escape with a dropship - if you can fly; or end the game in another way).

4. Escape the towers. Travel beyond the tower in an astronaut suit in a buggy. A fade to black style ending, alluding that this is just a prolonged suicide. Plus it might mean you've let the aliens out into the wilder reaches of the planet.
Too easy and available from the start. Sounds similar to committing suicide with grenades :P . Noooo ...

5. Destroy whatever makes the oxygen (and possibly gravity?) of the towers, killing everything. Another bad ending.
For gravity, it would be needed to have Death Star, Mass Shadow Generator, Hyperspace tractor beam, Galaxy Gun, or sth similar :P . Gravity is a phenomenon created by object as big a planet, and not simply by some strange machinery.

When it comes to oxygen, it depends on whether the oxygen is available outside the towers - or not. Another factor is that whether aliens can live without it or not ...
Destroying oxygen in the towers is fairly easy, but if it is available outside the colony, then you would need weapon capable of destroying the surface (at least) of the planet. This may be really hard to obtain ...
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: Jovian on November 06, 2011, 03:49
For classes I was just thinking for ease of adding it to the game really, and it is a game, which is why I went for archetypes rather than race and background variants. An android may be able to do anything a person can, but as an archetype they're durable, intelligent and sneaky. A prisoner can range from conman to tax avoider, but we picture them as bald, muscular guys, with serious anger management issues. Get it?

Oh and the workers would be "ice road truckers" or "black lunged miners" rather than having anything to do with being technical. They'd be kitted out with industrial drills and chainsaws and cut through doors rather than hacking into their system.

I realise gravity is created by the planet, but since I'm not sure what sort of planet the towers are on, it could easily have low or even high gravity.

As for oxygen, maybe the aliens can survive without it, nothing like a bleak ending to go with the bad ones!

Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: skarczew on November 07, 2011, 04:55
For classes I was just thinking for ease of adding it to the game really, and it is a game, which is why I went for archetypes rather than race and background variants. An android may be able to do anything a person can, but as an archetype they're durable, intelligent and sneaky.
Durable - yes. Intelligent - depends. I saw specialists / engineers in the movies and I saw regular hitmen in the games (AvP2, AvP3). Sneaky - depends. Bulky hitmen won't be sneaky - and I did not see any "sneaky assassin android" in the movies / games.
But it is still possible for me that the background for "Marine / HW Specialist / Healer / etc" can be an android. Just treat it s a "Race" :) .

A prisoner can range from conman to tax avoider, but we picture them as bald, muscular guys, with serious anger management issues. Get it?
Now, read the background story behind the game ...If I had to "solve problems in a colony on some remote planet", then I would not be sending a team of armed "prisoners with anger management issues".

Oh and the workers would be "ice road truckers" or "black lunged miners" rather than having anything to do with being technical. They'd be kitted out with industrial drills and chainsaws and cut through doors rather than hacking into their system.
Those guys could be living in a colony, but they do not fit in "rescue team" too much (same as prisoners). And I am not sure about usefulness of chainsaws against metal doors :/ . Blowtorch is much more better =) .
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: Jovian on January 06, 2012, 11:19
Wait wait

I got it

roller skates.
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: Gamer-man on January 15, 2012, 01:38
Am i the only one who heard "AliensRL" and thought back to the Aliens theme where people are setting up turrets and guarding hallways to survive?  I always thought the game would be, rather than an extermination mission, a survive as long as possible mission, to give it a feel more like the movie aliens where there was no chance of defeating all of them, they were just trying to hold on as long as possible.  I always thought a couple of human encampments in a building complex and you are traveling between them getting supplies, and keeping the encampments alive, with each wave getting stronger and stronger until you can't hold out anymore.
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: zchris13 on February 06, 2012, 13:20
I don't know how well that would play out as a roguelike.
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: skarczew on February 07, 2012, 04:03
Alien infestation can have few stages - at least. The way Gamer-man wants the game to be, reminds me rather of tower defense game, rather than roguelike.
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: Gamer-man on February 17, 2012, 15:52
it should work at least as well for roguelikes as it does for doomclones that do it (half-life 2, for example).  Roguelikes are already more about resource management than any genre save maybe RTS's
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: skarczew on February 18, 2012, 12:15
Half Life 2 as Doom clone ...rofl :D . Why not Wolfenstein?
There was add-on for AvP 2 which included actions like setting up some Sentry Guns, etc - but this was just yet another enhancement to the game itself.

But to make game playable I would say ...finish it first. There are already lots of ideas floating on this forum, but the game itself is not completed.

And I fear that making it tower defense would change its feeling. I prefer my solo fights with (hopefully in future) intelligent Xenomorphs rather than directing streams of them into some kinds of turrets of death.

P.S. Resource management is present in a lot of games. Including Sentry Turrets won't change there much, as those are some kind of resource as well.
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on February 18, 2012, 12:27
No worries, once I finish DRL 0.9.9.6, ARL is targeted again :)
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: skarczew on February 18, 2012, 16:26
2 working releases of Doom vs half/quarter release of Aliens ...thats not fair :'( .
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: thelaptop on February 18, 2012, 22:26
2 working releases of Doom vs half/quarter release of Aliens ...thats not fair :'( .
Psst... make bigger bounties for ARL.  ;-)
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: J. Stalvern on March 10, 2012, 09:04
I got AliensRL only recently and played it just a little bit, so I can't comment much on the gameplay yet, but just as a couple words on the lore, in the first movie Weyland-Yutani knew about the existence of the Xenomorphs. They were planning to capture a specimen and bring it back- with or without the crew. Ash was there precisely for this reason.
Thus in the second movie the presence and existence of Xenomorphs are pretty well known to the corporation. You also have to remember that Aliens was a movie of the 80's, and therefore W-Y is the big evil corporation first and foremost, logic comes second. That's why Burke's motivations are not completely clear, as in was he also ordered to bring back specimens? Did he act on his own? Why were colonists sent on the planet in the first place despite the presence of Xenomorphs? How come no one saw the Space Jockey craft before? etc.
As long as the "evil corporation plays around with dangerous things, bad things happen" is applied, writing some vague motives should be easy enough. And from there it can go further.

Motion scanners BTW are a must. Alien hissing sounds can be toned down and in place of that the motion scanner's detection scan and detection sounds could be more prevalent. Xenomorphs are normally very silent, unless they have been seen someone and are going to attack. They are supposed to be relatively fragile but very dangerous creatures. So the motion scanner would add tension to the game, if for example it would have false readings or erroneous number of signals, like in the Space Hulk game.

Also maybe the game could be more oriented towards survival and escaping with minimal losses instead of being more combat oriented? Like in the first movie wrather than the second one.

Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: blablah on August 29, 2015, 12:18
0.8.5 version is in the works.

Still? Can we have 0.8.4 in the meantime, please?
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: Tormuse on August 29, 2015, 21:49
Still? Can we have 0.8.4 in the meantime, please?

Well, setting aside that KK made that post in 2011, this is a good question.  The Beta version of 0.8.4 was released in April of 2013.  If it isn't being worked on, I think it wouldn't hurt to release 0.8.4 publicly.
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: Moonshine Fox on January 10, 2017, 00:55
Well, setting aside that KK made that post in 2011, this is a good question.  The Beta version of 0.8.4 was released in April of 2013.  If it isn't being worked on, I think it wouldn't hurt to release 0.8.4 publicly.
Wait what? There's a beta? Is there any possibility of getting my grubby hands on that one somehow?


EDIT: Nevermind. NEVERMIND! I'm an idiot and a necroposter. I just now noticed I'm actually a beta tester and have access to the beta forums where it's right at the top. *EPIC DERP*
Title: Re: How to make AliensRL fun
Post by: Tormuse on January 10, 2017, 03:25
It's pretty fun.  :)  You can have regular weapons in the heavy weapon slot, which allows you to make better use of ammo you find and makes the game much more playable for everyone who isn't a HW Specialist.  :)

Sentry bots in the Military Tower are pretty cool too.