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901
Discussion / Re: Ruminating about MAc balance and Game Balance in general...
« on: April 16, 2010, 12:51 »
No way MAD is passive defense, I've never used it to absorb all incoming enemy damage. What's great about MAD is that you can scout enemies AND kill them before they're ever on-screen, making it tactical defense (by the definition being used). MFa can be split along the lines of a passive/active mix, since you can still take TaN/Bad if you're up to it or solely depend on avoiding projectiles/splash. I agree with MGK's and Cateye's descriptions; Blademaster would fall under active defense if anything.
If anything, Vampyre probably fits the tune of passive defense better than any master trait build: run up to the enemy whatever the cost, kill him and get your health back.
Although I'm curious, given what actually remains as possibilities, what an offensive build actually entails. Passive and active defense I can understand, but tactical seems far more offensive than defensive. Is a damage-pistol build, with its ridiculous firing speed and probable knockback, offense because it seeks to kill within normal range, or tactical defense because it seeks to kill before allowing anything else to attack? Is Ammochain, with its no reloading times and chain-firing speed, offense because it has no way to easily attack anything outside its range, or tactical defense because it can spew its infinite ammo into the darkness and hope for a shot?
In my opinion, anything that seeks to kill, regardless of the circumstances, is an offensive build. We can call it passive and active offense (like with defense), where passive offense is equivalent to tactical defense and active offense is just killing everything in range, if you want. Whether something goes into any category also tends to depend on how the player uses the build: for example, Fireangel has, by itself, active defense properties, but it can also be used to get as close as possible to the enemies and blast 'em with a double shotgun (something pretty impossible without nullified splash damage against things like Revs and Viles), thereby making it quite an active offense in those situations.
Well, this is getting a little off-track. Though, in the context of these categories, we could argue that Ammochain is overpowered on the grounds that it can simultaneously employ active and passive defense without even sacrificing ammo. MAD, at least, has to play the ammo game when it goes scouting.
If anything, Vampyre probably fits the tune of passive defense better than any master trait build: run up to the enemy whatever the cost, kill him and get your health back.
Although I'm curious, given what actually remains as possibilities, what an offensive build actually entails. Passive and active defense I can understand, but tactical seems far more offensive than defensive. Is a damage-pistol build, with its ridiculous firing speed and probable knockback, offense because it seeks to kill within normal range, or tactical defense because it seeks to kill before allowing anything else to attack? Is Ammochain, with its no reloading times and chain-firing speed, offense because it has no way to easily attack anything outside its range, or tactical defense because it can spew its infinite ammo into the darkness and hope for a shot?
In my opinion, anything that seeks to kill, regardless of the circumstances, is an offensive build. We can call it passive and active offense (like with defense), where passive offense is equivalent to tactical defense and active offense is just killing everything in range, if you want. Whether something goes into any category also tends to depend on how the player uses the build: for example, Fireangel has, by itself, active defense properties, but it can also be used to get as close as possible to the enemies and blast 'em with a double shotgun (something pretty impossible without nullified splash damage against things like Revs and Viles), thereby making it quite an active offense in those situations.
Well, this is getting a little off-track. Though, in the context of these categories, we could argue that Ammochain is overpowered on the grounds that it can simultaneously employ active and passive defense without even sacrificing ammo. MAD, at least, has to play the ammo game when it goes scouting.
902
Discussion / Re: Badges Guide
« on: April 15, 2010, 19:15 »
Changed the name; can't believe I screwed that up.
I should add that it doesn't matter if you did the badge(s) using 0.9.9.0 unless you were specifically exploiting something about that version that made the run possible. If not, just let me know the version in which you completed the run and a mortem link (or the file itself if you didn't post it) so I can verify.
Really, I'll take comments for just about any badge so long as they seem legit.
I should add that it doesn't matter if you did the badge(s) using 0.9.9.0 unless you were specifically exploiting something about that version that made the run possible. If not, just let me know the version in which you completed the run and a mortem link (or the file itself if you didn't post it) so I can verify.
Really, I'll take comments for just about any badge so long as they seem legit.
903
0.9.9.1 / Re: [U|100%|YAAM] ..all hell holes dead but no conquer nor explorer badge?
« on: April 15, 2010, 16:47 »Quote from: BEEF
I was messing around on ITYTD to get Scavenger Gold, so no Mortuary or Unholy Cathedral was generated.Just wondering: did every other level that CAN generate show up? This includes: Hell's Arena (obv. that you did), Chained Court, The Wall, Hell's Armory, Halls of Carnage, City of Skulls, Spider's Lair, The Vaults (obv. also), and Lava Pits. You definitely didn't do Hell Fortress, so we know that wasn't it.
904
Discussion / Badges Guide
« on: April 14, 2010, 19:53 »
Welcome to the Badges Guide thread! This is where I post the latest version of my guide (currently v2.1) so that players can understand the various underpinnings of the many, many badges that exist in DoomRL. Beginners and veterans alike may realize a thing or two after looking through it (and it is quite a read), so if you're having any trouble with badges at all, take a look.
If you find that some of the information is lacking or inaccurate, please post in the thread and let me know what the issue is. I'll be happy to make any corrections and attribute those who point them out.
Original post:
Version history:
If you find that some of the information is lacking or inaccurate, please post in the thread and let me know what the issue is. I'll be happy to make any corrections and attribute those who point them out.
Original post:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Version history:
Code: [Select]
(04/14/10) 1.0:
- First draft
- Bronze Badges (probably the quickest ones to do) are complete
- currently have corner-shooting in the strategies appendix
(04/18/10) 1.1:
- new sections: Silver Badges, UAC Silver, Veteran Silver, Strongman Silver,
Berserker Silver, Brick Silver, Skull Silver, Reaper Silver, Scavenger Silver, Arena
Silver, Arachno Silver
- fixed some typos
- added comment for Destroyer Bronze (and future Destroyers) by Passionario
- included note about attaining several badges of the same name in a single run
- added note on corner-shooting with shotgun and how to use barrels in the strategies
appendix
(04/27/10) 1.2:
- new sections: Marksman Silver, Shottyman Silver, Lightfoot Silver, Eagerness
Silver, Runner Silver, Lava Silver
- new appendicies: Using Doors, Radar-shooting/Scouting, A2 Ammochain Running, Lava-
walking
(05/08/10) 1.3:
- new sections: Inquisitor Silver, Quartermaster Silver, Destroyer Silver
- fixed acid/lava explosision diagram in A.2.6- plenty of errors removed
- orginally "standard game" victories (such as UAC and Strongman badges) mentioned
that partial victories could not earn the badge: this has been corrected to say that
all victories are allowed for such badge completions
(08/04/10) 1.4:
- new sections: Gold Badges (and all subsections) Platinum Badges, UAC Platinum
- fixed several typos and inconsistencies in previous sections
- added a diagram to clarify "visual" scouting
- added Acknowledgments section: all contributions by others will be mentioned there
(08/10/10) 1.5:
- new sections: Veteran Platinum, Elite Platinum, Demonic Platinum, Berserker
Platinum, Quartermaster Platinum, Reaper Platinum, Scavenger Platinum, Arena
Platinum, Longinus Platinum, Diamond Badges, UAC Diamond, Veteran Diamond, Berserker
Diamond, Centurial Diamond, Longinus Diamond
- Pacifism Gold erroneously mentioned problems in Phobos Base Entry, when in fact
AoPc does not contain that floor: this has been removed and revised into the AoB
badges
- Brick Bronze/Silver, thanks to Fanta Hege, has a much safer strategy of completion
- plenty of typos are fixed
(08/19/10) 1.6:
- new file history format, updated to previous histories
- new sections: Strongman Platinum/Diamond, Elite Diamond, Demonic Diamond, Shottyman
Platinum, Destroyer Platinum, Pacifism Platinum, Marksman Diamond, Shottyman Diamond,
Destroyer Diamond, Pacifism Diamond, Scavenger Diamond, Arena Diamond
--- Marksman Diamond currently references the Platinum of the series, which has yet
to be written (though I doubt few are interested anyway)
- fixed wording on Elite Platinum when referring to Explorer and Conqueror Badges
- added diagram for doors, showing visibility from direct and diagonal approaches
(11/19/10) 1.7:
- new sections: Marksman Platinum, Inquisitor Platinum, Centurial Platinum, Corpse
Revival and Destruction, Rocket-jumping, Gift-dropping
- Rearranged strategies section, renamed to Specific Tactics
--- Corner-shooting with a Shotgun is now a subsection of Corner-shooting
- Revised Berserker series to accomodate gift-dropping tactic
- Various minor changes and fixes
(3/17/11) 2.0:
- new badges! Includes Speedrunner series, Masochist Bronze/Silver, Everyman series,
Gatekeeper series
- changes to existing badges:
--- Berserker Bronze/Silver level requirement increased to 7/16 (from 5/15)
--- Masochist Gold difficulty requirement increased to HMP
--- Centurial Platinum/Diamond requirements changed to UV/N clear (thank goodness)
- new format! Badges are categorized first by badge type, then by difficulty
--- plenty of redundant information removed as a result
- tons of rewrites for other badges, typos fixed
(8/06/11) 2.1:
- new badges! Includes Technician series, Armorer series, Heroic series
- new sections: Everyman Platinum/Diamond
- new appendix! Nicknames
- tweaks on sections to account for new bosses, new rewards
- lots of small changes for miscellaneous game updates
905
Discussion / Re: Your favorite weapon?
« on: April 13, 2010, 21:38 »
If we're talking just normal weapons, then pistols are definitely my favorite. It's a shame that they're really hard to work with on harder difficulties. With a little modding and maxed damage traits, you get a good knockback half the time which, with the insane firing rate, almost always guarantees protection...so long as you don't move. Not a lot of damage output but it's very safe by the time you get it going. Gun Kata...lacks damage. And of course, there are a lot of pistol uniques, so that only helps out a pistol build.
If we're talking any weapon at all, my definite favorite is the Railgun, with assault shotgun as a close second. Railgun is absolutely sick in the right situations, not to mention it blows through walls with certainty (goodbye rockets) and gibs multiple weaklings in a row. The damage per cell also beats the rifle, so it's just amazing. Assault shotgun, for one, is fully moddable now, which can turn that weapon into pure bliss, and the sick reloading was always awesome.
If we're talking any weapon at all, my definite favorite is the Railgun, with assault shotgun as a close second. Railgun is absolutely sick in the right situations, not to mention it blows through walls with certainty (goodbye rockets) and gibs multiple weaklings in a row. The damage per cell also beats the rifle, so it's just amazing. Assault shotgun, for one, is fully moddable now, which can turn that weapon into pure bliss, and the sick reloading was always awesome.
906
0.9.9.1 / Re: [U|100%|YAAM] ..all hell holes dead but no conquer nor explorer badge?
« on: April 13, 2010, 20:57 »
If I were you I'd check that one off on your list anyway. Explorer and Conquerer both say "generated" levels, which clearly indicates levels that are generated, ie, ones that do NOT generate should not count. It's impossible enough as it is to get through the almost certain Vaults and 100% certain UC and Mortuary. Amazing job on your part. I like how you appeared to have ignored Jackhammer altogether, but MAc will do that.
Looks like we have at least one person with Elite Platinum (and yes, I'm absolutely counting this run unless people don't like the savescumming on Vaults).
Looks like we have at least one person with Elite Platinum (and yes, I'm absolutely counting this run unless people don't like the savescumming on Vaults).
907
Nightmare! / [N!|AoMC|70%|YAVP] Destroyer Diamond + Reaper Plat
« on: April 13, 2010, 20:51 »--------------------------------------------------------------
DoomRL (v.0.9.9.1) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------
Max Hunter, level 13 Hell Baron Lt. Colonel, defeated the Cyberdemon
on level 25 of the Phobos base.
He survived 38400 turns and scored 516680 points.
He played for 1 hour, 32 minutes and 25 seconds.
He opposed the Nightmare!
He killed 923 out of 1318 hellspawn. (70%)
He was an Angel of Max Carnage!
-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------
UAC Star (silver cluster)
Minor Icarus Cross
Grim Reaper's Badge
Destroyer Platinum Badge
Destroyer Diamond Badge
Reaper Platinum Badge
-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------
###########################################################
#..........................................................
#..........................................................
#..........................................................
#....###..........###......................................
#....#>#..........###.................###..................
#....###..........###....###..........###..................
#........................###..........###..................
#........................||.....................###........
#.................X.......|}....................###........
#...............................................###........
#..........................................................
#...............................##.........................
#......#......###..............###.........................
#......###....###..............###.........................
#.............###.......##......................###.....###
#.......................###.....................###.....###
#.......................###.....................###.....###
#..........................................................
###########################################################
-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------
Health 50/50 Experience 74138/13
ToHit Ranged +12 ToHit Melee +12 ToDmg Ranged +3 ToDmg Melee +3
-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------
Finesse (Level 2)
Hellrunner (Level 2)
Son of a bitch (Level 3)
Juggler (Level 1)
Dodgemaster (Level 1)
Whizkid (Level 1)
Triggerhappy (Level 2)
Ammochain (Level 1)
Fin->Fin->SoB->SoB->TH->WK->MAc->TH->HR->HR->DM->SoB->Jug->
-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------
[a] [ Armor ] modified red armor [6/6] (82%) (P)
[b] [ Weapon ] modified plasma rifle (1d7)x6 [40/40] (T1)
[c] [ Boots ] plasteel boots [4/4] (100%)
[d] [ Prepared ] modified nuclear BFG 9000 (8d8) [51/68] (B2)
-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------
[a] modified rocket launcher (6d6) [1/1] (B2)
[b] assault shotgun (7d3) [6/6]
[c] blue armor [2/2] (100%)
[d] blue armor [2/2] (100%)
[e] Angelic Armor [7/7] (100%)
[f] shotgun shell (x50)
[g] shotgun shell (x50)
[h] shotgun shell (x50)
[i] rocket (x5)
[j] rocket (x10)
[k] power cell (x50)
[l] power cell (x50)
[m] power cell (x50)
[n] large med-pack
[o] large med-pack
[p] large med-pack
[q] large med-pack
[r] large med-pack
[s] large med-pack
[t] large med-pack
-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------
84 former humans
110 former sergeants
111 former captains
166 imps
53 demons
61 lost souls
61 cacodemons
31 barons of hell
1 Cyberdemon
37 hell knights
26 arachnotrons
42 former commandos
6 pain elementals
22 arch-viles
79 mancubi
23 revenants
1 nightmare imp
1 nightmare cacodemon
6 nightmare demons
2 bruiser brothers
-- History ---------------------------------------------------
He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
On level 4 he stormed the Chained Court.
On level 9 he witnessed the Wall.
Not knowing what to do, he left.
On level 12 he ventured into the Halls of Carnage.
On level 15 he encoutered the Phobos Hellgate.
On level 16 he invaded the Unholy Cathedral!
He fled the Unholy Cathedral seeing no chance to win.
On level 22 he was foolish enough to enter the Mortuary!
On level 22 he found the Angelic Armor!
He managed to clear the Mortuary from evil!
On level 23 he entered the Lava Pits.
He decided it was too hot there.
Then at last he found Phobos Arena!
On level 25 he finally defeated the Cyberdemon.
-- Messages --------------------------------------------------
Fire -- Choose target... The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The missile
hits the Cyberdemon. The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The missile
hits the Cyberdemon. The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The missile hits the
Cyberdemon. The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The missile hits the
Cyberdemon.
The Cyberdemon fires! You dodge! You hear an explosion!
Fire -- Choose target... The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The missile
hits the Cyberdemon. The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The missile
hits the Cyberdemon. The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The missile hits the
Cyberdemon. The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The missile hits the
Cyberdemon.
Fire -- Choose target... The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The missile
hits the Cyberdemon. The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The missile
hits the Cyberdemon. The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The missile hits the
Cyberdemon. The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The Cyberdemon dies.
-- General ---------------------------------------------------
Before him 245 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
198 of those were killed.
23 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
And 10 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.
Some rumours though, say that the Cyberdemon was killed already!
Is he immortal? 14 souls claim to have killed him...
1 sacrificed itself for the good of mankind.
11 killed the bastard and survived.
2 showed that it can outsmart hell itself.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Sweet, sweet victory. A lot of it went rather well...plenty of fortunate stair-finds, some less fortunate. As it is, however, Ammochain keeps you alive without the worries of ammo, so you can wait until there's an opening.- Hellgate started with half a berserk left, so I simply shot the door down on the other side and bolted it; killed everything near the door, opened the second wall, and spammed plasma into the cubby holes. Worked out really well, my red armor was only half-dead at the end.
- Surprisingly, only three caves: two Cacos at the very beginning (JUST after Chained Court, woo) and one Arach on 24, at which point I had DM and plenty of survivability.
Mortuary...oh man, what a nightmare. I had no idea the corpses that spawned with the level ALSO respawned like normal. That's the only reason I have 70%, by the way...should probably be more like 45-55. I was lucky enough to have a near-full berserk going on, so I managed to clear the right side and grab the nuclear BFG (Halls of Carnage...shottys hurt way too much to get through there) and spent a good ten minutes carefully trying to clear out as many corpses as possible with BFG/RL while still keeping myself alive with plasma volleys. Manucbi shots still hurt 60% through red armor, so it's dangerous, but eventually I managed to finish up, grab the armor (RIGHT next to me, thank God) and get the hell outta there before they kept respawning. And they DO keep respawning even after it's over there.
Anyway, just happy on my first Diamond. In my opinion, this is one of the...um...less impossible ones due to relying less on luck and more on sound planning and tactics.
908
Discussion / Re: Ruminating about MAc balance and Game Balance in general...
« on: April 13, 2010, 17:30 »Quote from: Thomas
With this in mind, a nerf of MAc is required. Currently, as somebody I can't quite remember so correctly said, MAc helps the player in many ways. Removing a couple would result in a much more balanced trait.
1. Helps with time management. No more reloading!
2a. Helps with ammo management...
2b. and hence inventory management.
3. Hey, who needs a chaingun any more?
4. Slightly increases damage output (in that you can now chainfire for longer without stopping)
The downside is currently no TaN. There is no other downside.
We can safely put that another downside is lack of accuracy...but, as I stated before, it's quite easy to remove that problem because of Chained Court. In fact, the lack of accuracy is a damn good counterbalance if NOT for the quick fix. Can anyone think of a MAc run where the player didn't have accuracy mods?
Quote from: Thomas
Another way would be to reduce the damage of chainguns in general. This makes ammochain suffer immensely, because the whole point of ammochain is to kill things before they get a chance to fire. A way to do this (that would also make SoaB viable for non-chaingun builds) is to make SoaB "All attacks made by you do 10%/20%/30% extra damage, rounded up." Because chainguns do 1d6, half the time 30% is worth +1, half the time 30% is worth +2.This appears to be a very reasonable solution...although it certainly improves the damage on weapons like RL and BFG quite significantly. It also makes AoMC runs that much more damaging (to enemies) in general. Admittedly, however, SoaB is almost solely engineered for rapid-fire weapons, so I don't mind making it a little more generalized.
If this turns out to make chainguns too weak, we could slightly increase their base accuracy/damage and HEY PRESTO THEY AREN'T USELESS WITHOUT TRAITS just like Mr. Shotgun
I would argue that the point of any offensive build is to kill the enemy before they have the chance to fire (MAD? Cateye??) and that the specialized purpose of Ammochain is to fire as wildly as possible without concern for how much ammo you have left. To force reloading would be a small nerf in my opinion, but perhaps it is all that is necessary (other than less available agi mods...) to place it on part with other master traits.
Besides, it doesn't HAVE to be called Ammochain if that name doesn't make sense with such a nerf. Call it "Heavy Weapons Guy" or something, I don't care.
909
Discussion / Re: Ruminating about MAc balance and Game Balance in general...
« on: April 11, 2010, 13:26 »Quote from: Gargulec
The problem is that SoaB-less MAc run will not only suffer greatly in early game, but also may not have the necessary stopping power in the deeper dungeons.The problem is quickly resolved after a couple more levels, which will almost certainly be directed toward the remaining SoaBs (and quite likely TH for more shots after). The purpose of this kind of nerf is to dedicate yourself more to the Ammochain, which is done by adding superfluous traits (ie, Reloader) into the core requirements. Whether or not it's too problematic, I'm not sure...that's the kind of thing testing is for.
Quote from: Gargulec
Sure, this could be something to work on right now. On the other hand, there are a lot of other ways to improve the game that don't involve spiking the difficulty curve: other special levels, a second "dungeon" (I was thinking Deimos: fewer formers, faster scaling of equipment, and with the Spiderdemon at the end instead of ol' Cybie), fixing the projectile pathing, and so on and so forth.Quote from: Fanta HegeTo be honest, making everything else as powerful as Ammochain and then buffing up the rest of the game doesn't seem that much of fun. =/Whyso? Acquiring power beyond measure (hey MAc!) is the very essence of fun in game for me. And then being presented with situation that DO require such power to solve could be even more fun.
What is different about the power that comes from, say, acquiring Jackhammer or Railgun or double Blasters from the power of MAc is that it is absolutely guaranteed if you can survive the first bit (which, relative to any other build, isn't hard...we're only talking about Clvl 7). Afterwards, all ammo concerns are thrown out the window and, in a typical run, you'll already have the blessed A2 to make your shots pretty accurate. So long as you don't run into something that would kill ANYONE, it's a pretty straightforward rest of the game.
Anyway. Of the options I mentioned I would definitely pick the revision of Chained Court such that A2 is no longer guaranteed. Without accuracy, Ammochain is limited in its scope such that it would not be OP, and so reaching that status would require some luck. Just like any other build. (MAD needs shells later on, MGK superbly benefits from a special pistol, MCe wants open levels, et cetera.)
910
Discussion / Re: Ruminating about MAc balance and Game Balance in general...
« on: April 11, 2010, 03:53 »
Rapid-fire builds, sans Ammochain, are only viable because of one key trait: Son of a Bitch. Having the extra damage negates problems against armor, kills things in general faster, and conserves your ammo when you can kill in one round instead of two (or two instead of three, more often than not). Ammochain, technically, does not NEED this trait, for two reasons:
- No worries about ammo
- Plasma cuts through armor like no tomorrow
Perhaps changing the requirements of Ammochain will nerf it enough without doing too much damage. Specifically, I was thinking something like WK (1), SoaB (1), Rel (2). This forces a couple of points into something that, in most cases, won't even be considered during a rapid-fire run: however, it STILL has uses for explosive weapons, not to mention it "makes sense" that you'd have to learn how to reload to be able to chain ammo like that (it's not like we're saying the ammo comes from thin air after all). Naturally there are plenty of different possibilities here, and I'm here we could figure out something good. Unfortunately, it's hard to argue against the current requirements, especially with the blocked EE trait.
While I do like the idea of MAc turning all your stacks into a single bunch, this would throw away any usefulness in obtaining the Backpack. This isn't so much bad as it is unprecedented: traits narrow your options and what you want to get but never obsolete equipment entirely. And when you consider that (again, looking over MAc) rapid-fire builds basically depend on having as much ammo as possible, the Backpack is one of those things you plan on...removing the strategy of preparation for The Wall would diminish some enjoyment.
Alternatively, Ammochain could just instantly reload your rapid-fire gun whenever it runs out of ammo ala Madtrixr. This really isn't all that bad, either: you still have to carry ammo but you never have to worry if the clip runs out (compounded that you never had to put a point into Reloader!). However, the problem with THIS change comes from the inherent (albeit weak) balancing that Melon brought up: no EE. The biggest flaw in a rapid-fire weapon lies in the inability to hit anything past a couple tiles. Without modding, the only reason Ammochain is even viable is BECAUSE you never run out of ammo...you'll barely hit anything with that infinite chain going. What tends to break the MAc build, ultimately, is achieving A2 on your weapon of choice, upping the chance to hit to that of a pistol...easily enough to hit most of the time, which begs the question why you need infinite ammo anymore.
Maybe what we should fix, then, is the A2 that is easily attainable with explosives (or careful strategy) in the Chained Court, which is 1) always generated and, 2) rather early in the game. (The exception, A100, sees so many mods that it doesn't matter all that much anyway.) Possibilities:
- Randomize the mod type. Quick fix, probably no changes in balancing other than the aforementioned issue, still worth checking out (what I wouldn't give for some early power mods in a shotty run).
- Only one mod is an agility type. This still provides the much-desired agility on boots for other games, and A1 isn't QUITE enough to be game-breaking. You'll have to wait until at least Armory (if it even shows up) to attain that glorious pistol accuracy. The other mod can be whatever, but I'd suggest tech (if only because it's the only mod not guaranteed in some special level).
- Replace the mods altogether with other equipment. Maybe put an early plasma rifle in there, or some protective boots, or red armor, or even with the small chance of an exotic piece. It's less favorable to MAc and more favorable to any build at all, which is certainly part of the purpose of special levels (I'm looking at you, four Berserk Packs and Chainsaw).
Anyway, plenty of options to think about. I would dispute strongly that rebalancing the entire game for the sake of a single POSSIBLE build is overdoing things, and Kornel (I'm sure) is looking for something a lot easier to implement.
Cateye is a great build, too, although it does tend to pare in comparison to an A2 Ammochain run. It has the benefit of stacking with Int (2), although a lot would argue that these are redundant and would happily choose the one that doesn't block TaN. The practicality of MCe lies in long-distance shooting (EE tends to be useless after a single point) which, due to the dimensions of the game, doesn't really come up all that often. A lot of levels throw you into a herd of nasty monsters, or a cave, or an arena, or a bunch of small rooms, or a maze that lacks big areas. Cateye just doesn't tend to matter in those situations, ending up rusty by the time it is guaranteed useful (Phobos Arena, MAYBE Mortuary if you're ready). Ammochain, on the other hand, is useful 100% of the time, and is used 100% of the time (unless, for some reason, you need to pull out an explosive weapon), so there is no rust.
As for the rest...
- MGK really loses its spark on harder difficulties. More monsters mean more bullets mean less ammo overall. With SoaB locked out, you WILL run out of bullets unless you start floor diving and, to me, a build that advocates avoiding combat isn't a very persuasive one. Compare MFa, which still has combat uses (such as fighting up against walls, or Arch-viles, or Revs half of the time) while still being defensive. Check out the Second Pistol Master Trait topic in Requests for Features on ideas for something more offensive: so long as there is a pistol master that can do something against the ever-increasing hordes, I'm happy.
- I'll be frank: do people really use MBm or MVm outside of AoB? Is it REALLY necessary to have two master traits for a build that is only used a very small fraction of the time? Based on the mortems, MVm is much preferred over MBm, so I'd tend to leave that one and just keep Cleaver as the remains of Blademaster.
- MAD is fine. It MIGHT be overpowered, except Fin and HR are both blocked which tends to prevent freedom of battle options. You are either going to take advantage of armor-piercing shells and radar-shoot the hell out of everything, or you are going to be in a lot of pain.
- Intuition on the second level is pretty ridiculous, except you are basically paying two points to get it (the first level is marginally useful at best, and only once you have the second level) so I think that one's balanced out. It also makes you get two EE which is, again, rather overkill on accuracy.
I'll post some ideas for the rest in terms of actual changes later, kinda sleepy right now.
- No worries about ammo
- Plasma cuts through armor like no tomorrow
Perhaps changing the requirements of Ammochain will nerf it enough without doing too much damage. Specifically, I was thinking something like WK (1), SoaB (1), Rel (2). This forces a couple of points into something that, in most cases, won't even be considered during a rapid-fire run: however, it STILL has uses for explosive weapons, not to mention it "makes sense" that you'd have to learn how to reload to be able to chain ammo like that (it's not like we're saying the ammo comes from thin air after all). Naturally there are plenty of different possibilities here, and I'm here we could figure out something good. Unfortunately, it's hard to argue against the current requirements, especially with the blocked EE trait.
While I do like the idea of MAc turning all your stacks into a single bunch, this would throw away any usefulness in obtaining the Backpack. This isn't so much bad as it is unprecedented: traits narrow your options and what you want to get but never obsolete equipment entirely. And when you consider that (again, looking over MAc) rapid-fire builds basically depend on having as much ammo as possible, the Backpack is one of those things you plan on...removing the strategy of preparation for The Wall would diminish some enjoyment.
Alternatively, Ammochain could just instantly reload your rapid-fire gun whenever it runs out of ammo ala Madtrixr. This really isn't all that bad, either: you still have to carry ammo but you never have to worry if the clip runs out (compounded that you never had to put a point into Reloader!). However, the problem with THIS change comes from the inherent (albeit weak) balancing that Melon brought up: no EE. The biggest flaw in a rapid-fire weapon lies in the inability to hit anything past a couple tiles. Without modding, the only reason Ammochain is even viable is BECAUSE you never run out of ammo...you'll barely hit anything with that infinite chain going. What tends to break the MAc build, ultimately, is achieving A2 on your weapon of choice, upping the chance to hit to that of a pistol...easily enough to hit most of the time, which begs the question why you need infinite ammo anymore.
Maybe what we should fix, then, is the A2 that is easily attainable with explosives (or careful strategy) in the Chained Court, which is 1) always generated and, 2) rather early in the game. (The exception, A100, sees so many mods that it doesn't matter all that much anyway.) Possibilities:
- Randomize the mod type. Quick fix, probably no changes in balancing other than the aforementioned issue, still worth checking out (what I wouldn't give for some early power mods in a shotty run).
- Only one mod is an agility type. This still provides the much-desired agility on boots for other games, and A1 isn't QUITE enough to be game-breaking. You'll have to wait until at least Armory (if it even shows up) to attain that glorious pistol accuracy. The other mod can be whatever, but I'd suggest tech (if only because it's the only mod not guaranteed in some special level).
- Replace the mods altogether with other equipment. Maybe put an early plasma rifle in there, or some protective boots, or red armor, or even with the small chance of an exotic piece. It's less favorable to MAc and more favorable to any build at all, which is certainly part of the purpose of special levels (I'm looking at you, four Berserk Packs and Chainsaw).
Anyway, plenty of options to think about. I would dispute strongly that rebalancing the entire game for the sake of a single POSSIBLE build is overdoing things, and Kornel (I'm sure) is looking for something a lot easier to implement.
Cateye is a great build, too, although it does tend to pare in comparison to an A2 Ammochain run. It has the benefit of stacking with Int (2), although a lot would argue that these are redundant and would happily choose the one that doesn't block TaN. The practicality of MCe lies in long-distance shooting (EE tends to be useless after a single point) which, due to the dimensions of the game, doesn't really come up all that often. A lot of levels throw you into a herd of nasty monsters, or a cave, or an arena, or a bunch of small rooms, or a maze that lacks big areas. Cateye just doesn't tend to matter in those situations, ending up rusty by the time it is guaranteed useful (Phobos Arena, MAYBE Mortuary if you're ready). Ammochain, on the other hand, is useful 100% of the time, and is used 100% of the time (unless, for some reason, you need to pull out an explosive weapon), so there is no rust.
As for the rest...
- MGK really loses its spark on harder difficulties. More monsters mean more bullets mean less ammo overall. With SoaB locked out, you WILL run out of bullets unless you start floor diving and, to me, a build that advocates avoiding combat isn't a very persuasive one. Compare MFa, which still has combat uses (such as fighting up against walls, or Arch-viles, or Revs half of the time) while still being defensive. Check out the Second Pistol Master Trait topic in Requests for Features on ideas for something more offensive: so long as there is a pistol master that can do something against the ever-increasing hordes, I'm happy.
- I'll be frank: do people really use MBm or MVm outside of AoB? Is it REALLY necessary to have two master traits for a build that is only used a very small fraction of the time? Based on the mortems, MVm is much preferred over MBm, so I'd tend to leave that one and just keep Cleaver as the remains of Blademaster.
- MAD is fine. It MIGHT be overpowered, except Fin and HR are both blocked which tends to prevent freedom of battle options. You are either going to take advantage of armor-piercing shells and radar-shoot the hell out of everything, or you are going to be in a lot of pain.
- Intuition on the second level is pretty ridiculous, except you are basically paying two points to get it (the first level is marginally useful at best, and only once you have the second level) so I think that one's balanced out. It also makes you get two EE which is, again, rather overkill on accuracy.
I'll post some ideas for the rest in terms of actual changes later, kinda sleepy right now.
911
Discussion / Re: The topic for unlucky deaths
« on: April 09, 2010, 15:14 »
By far, the most unluckiest of my deaths involve me peeking into a room and getting blasted by like, three manucbi. I never had a chance. Seriously, all the radar shooting in the world never have touched them; my best bet would have been blowing up the whole damn level.
Just had a Vile/Mancubi pack twice in a row while attempting Runner Gold (which is ridiculously harder than not-100%, lemme tell you). Unfortunately, while the first one was in a nice corner, the second was out in the open, and I had little time to react. Mancubi in an open space is definitely a crapshoot, especially when you're running. I'm really starting to hate that badge (this run and the run that gave me Trigun but killed me with a level 3 Rev, followed closely by the 200 or so runs of me dying on the first level and its insanity).
Demons are a lot harder now, too, just because of (what I assume is) a small HP boost. The fact the can hit you twice between your moves can REALLY take a chunk out of your health. Had a lot of demon deaths just because I thought they wouldn't hit twice.
Oh, and there was this one time against AoD where I ran out of berserk in the middle of fighting him. Absolutely pitiful, I hit him at least five times.
Just had a Vile/Mancubi pack twice in a row while attempting Runner Gold (which is ridiculously harder than not-100%, lemme tell you). Unfortunately, while the first one was in a nice corner, the second was out in the open, and I had little time to react. Mancubi in an open space is definitely a crapshoot, especially when you're running. I'm really starting to hate that badge (this run and the run that gave me Trigun but killed me with a level 3 Rev, followed closely by the 200 or so runs of me dying on the first level and its insanity).
Demons are a lot harder now, too, just because of (what I assume is) a small HP boost. The fact the can hit you twice between your moves can REALLY take a chunk out of your health. Had a lot of demon deaths just because I thought they wouldn't hit twice.
Oh, and there was this one time against AoD where I ran out of berserk in the middle of fighting him. Absolutely pitiful, I hit him at least five times.
912
Discussion / Re: How do i get past damn hell gate?!?!?!?
« on: April 09, 2010, 02:49 »
What Melon said. RL is by far the best option if you can afford the rockets. Although to be honest, you're closer to the other side of the room by the time the walls collapse. If you don't need the door, you could destroy it ahead of time (just fire at it) and run for that opening instead. The UV Viles are nearer the first room, so this is probably the better option.
Additionally, you could just phase outta there. The walls still fall down if you pass the column (and, should there be imps, they can open the door) but it does make things a bit simpler. If you're having trouble with the first wave...heh. You'll enjoy the second.
Additionally, you could just phase outta there. The walls still fall down if you pass the column (and, should there be imps, they can open the door) but it does make things a bit simpler. If you're having trouble with the first wave...heh. You'll enjoy the second.
913
Requests For Features / Re: Whizkid isn't consistently practical
« on: April 08, 2010, 01:02 »
I won't disagree that Whizkid lacks the consistency to be useful in every game, but I will mention other points that may enlighten this discussion.
There are some traits that you're also at the mercy of the RNG. Hellrunner first? Plenty of Sergeants can still kick your ass. TaN first? Plenty of Demons can (now) kick your ass. Triggerhappy can be a life-saver or an ammo-waster, usually the latter. Intuition won't save you from arach caves, and there are plenty of those. Dodgemaster is worthless against Viles, Revs, sometimes Manucbi, and it's not hard to find packs later on. Shottyman requires a shotgun to use, so whenever you aren't you're wasting it. These kinds of traits are expected in plenty of games, but just the wrong kind of situation turns them into a steaming pile of points you could have used in something much more reliable (Finesse, SoB for rapid-fire, Ironman).
But I get it: sure, all those other traits have still been proven to be things that should work as long as the RNG is not particularly working to screw you over with things no amount of traits could handle. (Ugh, Vile/Mancubi in mazes, I'm looking at you.) But man, a few extra mods can really, REALLY make a difference. Have you seen an assault (or combat) shotgun at P3T2 before? I was killing off the radar three times the normal rate. Talkin' HKs and Cacos and REVs here. Super-modded pistols are just about the only way to play a MGK run that isn't loaded with arach caves. Mods on weapons can turn a tough situation into a really easy one.
- Pistol? Bulk gives more ammo before you waste precious time reloading, power causes more knockback (hell YES for pistols), tech puts the speed up to insane firing rates (again, hell yess for pistols)
- Shotty? MFa runs desperately need a way to compete with MAD's damage, and power does just that.
- Rocket launcher? A place way to use up extra bulks without wasting them...that insane reloading time is priceless on a single-shot.
- Chaingun? As much as P2 makes it about as awesome as a plasma on average, and P2T# turns it into a great way to conserve ammo (bullet hold double what cells do).
- Minigun? A2/3 and you're golden.
- Nuclear BFG? P2B3 = normal BFG capabilities AND self-charging.
Tech mods in general are absolutely invaluable on any skirmish weapon. Bulk keeps those armors alive well past their prime, agi makes you feel like you aren't even wearing any: combined it's a double armor without penalty. There's a good reason adv weapons were taken out, and part of that reason is that they can get very broken, albeit slowly.
Whizkid isn't consistent, but it DOES make a huge difference with the right equipment. A100 benefits immensely from it. And, just as with any trait, you take a gamble as to what you're going to end up with. Shotty builds want tight packs of enemies, MGK wants wide open spaces, MCe wants long hallways. And Whizkid wants a few more mods than usual. It may be more chancy, but the only differences are that it wants the right items instead of agreeable map generation and the benefits are better when they pay out.
It'd be kinda cool to be able to "mod" two shotguns together and make a double shotgun that way, though. Mod weapons onto other weapons. Maybe the first level is that, and the second level can let you remove mods (at the cost of losing the equipment) and stick 'em back in your inventory. I gotta say, some games you'll have so many mods you won't know what to do with 'em. It's really a luck of the draw, and sometimes uniques have a way of impeding on mods' usefulness.
On an off-topic note, I wouldn't mind power mods changed to a different color. Exotic mod looks just like 'em now.
There are some traits that you're also at the mercy of the RNG. Hellrunner first? Plenty of Sergeants can still kick your ass. TaN first? Plenty of Demons can (now) kick your ass. Triggerhappy can be a life-saver or an ammo-waster, usually the latter. Intuition won't save you from arach caves, and there are plenty of those. Dodgemaster is worthless against Viles, Revs, sometimes Manucbi, and it's not hard to find packs later on. Shottyman requires a shotgun to use, so whenever you aren't you're wasting it. These kinds of traits are expected in plenty of games, but just the wrong kind of situation turns them into a steaming pile of points you could have used in something much more reliable (Finesse, SoB for rapid-fire, Ironman).
But I get it: sure, all those other traits have still been proven to be things that should work as long as the RNG is not particularly working to screw you over with things no amount of traits could handle. (Ugh, Vile/Mancubi in mazes, I'm looking at you.) But man, a few extra mods can really, REALLY make a difference. Have you seen an assault (or combat) shotgun at P3T2 before? I was killing off the radar three times the normal rate. Talkin' HKs and Cacos and REVs here. Super-modded pistols are just about the only way to play a MGK run that isn't loaded with arach caves. Mods on weapons can turn a tough situation into a really easy one.
- Pistol? Bulk gives more ammo before you waste precious time reloading, power causes more knockback (hell YES for pistols), tech puts the speed up to insane firing rates (again, hell yess for pistols)
- Shotty? MFa runs desperately need a way to compete with MAD's damage, and power does just that.
- Rocket launcher? A place way to use up extra bulks without wasting them...that insane reloading time is priceless on a single-shot.
- Chaingun? As much as P2 makes it about as awesome as a plasma on average, and P2T# turns it into a great way to conserve ammo (bullet hold double what cells do).
- Minigun? A2/3 and you're golden.
- Nuclear BFG? P2B3 = normal BFG capabilities AND self-charging.
Tech mods in general are absolutely invaluable on any skirmish weapon. Bulk keeps those armors alive well past their prime, agi makes you feel like you aren't even wearing any: combined it's a double armor without penalty. There's a good reason adv weapons were taken out, and part of that reason is that they can get very broken, albeit slowly.
Whizkid isn't consistent, but it DOES make a huge difference with the right equipment. A100 benefits immensely from it. And, just as with any trait, you take a gamble as to what you're going to end up with. Shotty builds want tight packs of enemies, MGK wants wide open spaces, MCe wants long hallways. And Whizkid wants a few more mods than usual. It may be more chancy, but the only differences are that it wants the right items instead of agreeable map generation and the benefits are better when they pay out.
It'd be kinda cool to be able to "mod" two shotguns together and make a double shotgun that way, though. Mod weapons onto other weapons. Maybe the first level is that, and the second level can let you remove mods (at the cost of losing the equipment) and stick 'em back in your inventory. I gotta say, some games you'll have so many mods you won't know what to do with 'em. It's really a luck of the draw, and sometimes uniques have a way of impeding on mods' usefulness.
On an off-topic note, I wouldn't mind power mods changed to a different color. Exotic mod looks just like 'em now.
914
0.9.9.1 / Re: [U|89%|YAVP] Everything went just right
« on: April 06, 2010, 16:13 »Quote from: Shadrak
On level 2 he found the Malek's Armor!...
...
You know what I found on level 2 today? ANOTHER CLEAVER.
Looked like a super-rific run though. In spite of the ridic armor you decided to focus on it even more with maxed Ironman. Usually on UV I find it's so much more important to build a solid foundation of strength, but I suppose MAc made up for that. Still, a third SoaB couldn't hurt, yeah?
915
Requests For Features / Re: The Great Unique and Challange Pick, Round One!
« on: April 06, 2010, 15:09 »Quote from: Gargulec
So, here are the rules.
I, Gargulec, will choose ten items and ten modes from corresponding topics that I find most interesting. Then, you will add next set of ten unique and challenges to the list. And then, I will create two polls, where you will vote for two items from each list. And then, Kornel will come and see the results. So, let me begin.
Sorry if I'm a bit confused: when you say "you", do you mean anyone at all? And if so, is it a first come, first served basis where only the first person to properly reply gets their list (since you only mention two polls)? If not, who are we waiting on? I won't pretend I have ANY tug around here, so I don't want to needlessly reply if we're just waiting on someone.
Slightly off-topic, I like your choices. Angel of Colliseum sounds AWESOME. (I'd want caves mixed in a bit though, too.)