Chaosforge Forum

DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: Cheesybox on November 28, 2012, 18:58

Title: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Cheesybox on November 28, 2012, 18:58
For example, Angel of Pacifism. I've gotten to level 12 or 13 on that. I understand that they're supposed to be a challenge mode or whatever, but some of them aren't even possible. Like there is no way you can beat AoPc or AoH on anything higher than HMP without save scumming or breaking the game in some fashion. I like a good challenge but I don't like trying to turn a concrete building into gravel with my forehead.

On a different note, finally figured out how to get the Dragonslayer thanks to the good folks on the Something Awful forums (eat that stupid Dragonslayer/Berserker Armor "club") and of course I was doing a AoPc run.
Feelsgreatman.jpg
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: yaflhdztioxo on November 28, 2012, 20:01
Who wants to point him to some AoH N! runs?  I think there's one or two lying about...
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Cheesybox on November 28, 2012, 20:16
Oh dude I totally want that. I hate how all my blood is inside my head right now.
But in all seriousness, some of these things make me want to go back to ranked LoL
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Tormuse on November 28, 2012, 20:32
Quote from: Cheesybox on November 28, 2012, 18:58
...but some of them aren't even possible. Like there is no way you can beat AoPc or AoH on anything higher than HMP without save scumming or breaking the game in some fashion.

Oooh...  Them's fightin' words!  I'm tempted to do a Nightmare AoHu run just to spite you!  :P

Quote from: Cheesybox on November 28, 2012, 20:16
Oh dude I totally want that. I hate how all my blood is inside my head right now...

*Puts on a raincoat and opens an umbrella just in case*

For the record, I've won AoPc on Nightmare! (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,3876.0.html)

...twice! (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,4774.0.html)

Spoiler: (...maybe three times, but who's counting?)  :P (click to show/hide)

(I don't know if the last one counts; I was dumb and used the nuke while invulnerable and then was unable to do anything to JC)

It takes a lot of patience and skill and luck, but AoPc is definitely doable at higher difficulty levels.  Anyway, I think it's good to have something seemingly too hard to do so you always have something to aim for.  I've never succeeded at AoHu Nightmare, but maybe I will one day...
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: yaflhdztioxo on November 28, 2012, 20:41
Hell, *I* have won AoPc on Nightmare.  That's one of the easiest diamond badges (and to date my only one).
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Tormuse on November 28, 2012, 20:53
I just did some digging through my old mortems out of curiosity...

Spoiler: Here's my best attempt at AoHu N! (click to show/hide)

I died because of a careless error; I'm sure I could've done it if I'd taken a break and come back to the game when I wasn't overtired.

EDIT:  Admittedly, these are all in previous versions of the game, so the difficulty may be different now, but I still stand by my point.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Cheesybox on November 28, 2012, 23:48
I don't get how thats even remotely possible. I've gotten screwed on previous AoPc games by getting stuck between walls and monsters and having literally no way out. I'm not even doing the GOTTA GO FAST TO THE EXIT. I try to hide behind stuff, take ToN/Ironman over HR (cause I had no luck taking HR). I just don't get how some of these are possible, even with the RNG smiling on you
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: thelaptop on November 29, 2012, 00:40
DoomRL games are mostly winnable, but there is no guarantee that every game you attempt is winnable.  This is a part and parcel of the whole rogue-like genre, and it comes from the fact that the "level design" is mostly controlled by a stochastic process -- there is no "overarching intelligence" that is balancing the game such that a win is virtually guaranteed.  Now, with that out of the way, let me say something about AoPc.

HR is key for AoPc.  Moving fast in-game and using side-stepping (walking diagonally) helps much more than trying to hide.  In normal games, hiding is good because you have a means of retaliation (i.e. shooting at them), but in AoPc you have nothing you can retaliate with; I remember one time where I was stuck in the Halls of Carnage sandwiched between two Hell Knights(?) and having to just wait for them to kill me because I couldn't do anything else in AoPc.

In AoPc, you must always advance, but never walk directly into the line of fire.  Diagonal walking is your friend, and once you've get the hang of that, just enjoy the many runs through hell.  It's not even a game of GOTTA GO FAST TO THE EXIT.  It is FIND THE EXIT WHILE EATING LESS DAMAGE.  Sure, it might take 20 to 50 games before you have one success, but that's just how a rogue-like is defined by.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Cheesybox on November 29, 2012, 02:03
Oh I know. I've been playing DoomRL off and on since v0.9.8.7.

I mean if I pull aggro from more than one monster, I'm going to eat shots, theres no avoiding damage. I can't search around enough to find kits and globes to be able to survive. No matter how much I play or how much I think about it and try to strategize, I can't wrap my head around a way to win AoPc
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Klear on November 29, 2012, 02:14
You need HR and Dodgemaster to be able to avoid most damage. Int 1 is really useful as well, since it allows you see powerups on the level and thus allows you to plan a bit.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Tormuse on November 29, 2012, 05:02
As Laptop said, side-stepping is your friend.  I rarely walk in a straight line in any game, but especially in AoPc; alternating between two diagonal keys is the way to go.  (Also, good use of running ability)

It's also worth noting that it took many, many tries to get those above-mentioned Nightmare games before I finally had a lucky game.  It was made extra difficult by the fact that the Pacifism Diamond requirements back then restricted use of HR.  Not too long ago, I tried for the new Pacifism Gold and I remember thinking, "Holy crap!  This is so much easier with Dodgemaster!"  :)
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: skarczew on November 29, 2012, 05:26
Quote from: Cheesybox on November 28, 2012, 18:58
(...)Like there is no way you can beat AoPc or AoH on anything higher than HMP without save scumming or breaking the game in some fashion.
It is bad that you do not believe in yourself.

Quote from: Cheesybox on November 28, 2012, 18:58
On a different note, finally figured out how to get the Dragonslayer thanks to the good folks on the Something Awful forums (eat that stupid Dragonslayer/Berserker Armor "club") and of course I was doing a AoPc run.
It is even worse that you are proud of actions that sound quite scummy.
Go brag somewhere else, DS-wannabe scum.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Cheesybox on November 29, 2012, 06:12
Quote from: skarczew on November 29, 2012, 05:26
It is even worse that you are proud of actions that sound quite scummy.
Go brag somewhere else, DS-wannabe scum.

First off, was pointing out that now that I know how to, I couldn't due to the challenge=further frustration that it has caused me (look at my previous posts related to it).
And second, I like to fully understand a game after playing it for so long, yet there's hardly any info on the wiki other than does "Tons of Damage and perma-zerk". SOOOOOORRY if I had to go elsewhere to get that info since the mods make sure that the requirements don't become common knowledge.
Now please do me a favor and take your attitude elsewhere.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Klear on November 29, 2012, 06:25
The fact that the requirements are secret make it that much satisfying if you can figure it out yourself without resorting to cheating. I don't see anything wrong with the existence of such a secret in the game.

And you shouldn't talk about attitude, after your original post:

Quote from: Cheesybox on November 28, 2012, 18:58
On a different note, finally figured out how to get the Dragonslayer thanks to the good folks on the Something Awful forums (eat that stupid Dragonslayer/Berserker Armor "club") and of course I was doing a AoPc run.
Feelsgreatman.jpg
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on November 29, 2012, 08:45
Jeez, people should really chill out on the whole Dragonslayer issue -_-.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: VANDAM on November 29, 2012, 08:57
Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on November 29, 2012, 08:45
Jeez, people should really chill out on the whole Dragonslayer issue -_-.
You can make another ultimate secret or x of them. And DS won't be alone anymore.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: skarczew on November 29, 2012, 09:10
Quote from: Cheesybox on November 29, 2012, 06:12
First off, was pointing out that now that I know how to, I couldn't due to the challenge=further frustration that it has caused me (look at my previous posts related to it).
And second, I like to fully understand a game after playing it for so long, yet there's hardly any info on the wiki other than does "Tons of Damage and perma-zerk". SOOOOOORRY if I had to go elsewhere to get that info since the mods make sure that the requirements don't become common knowledge.
Now please do me a favor and take your attitude elsewhere.
I am ok with taking my attitude elsewhere, but please note:

1. Difficulty is there for people who are doing crazy things with the game. Can't be easier, or we would have yet-another-modern-game-where-everyone-and-their-mothers-can-savescumm-to-get-all-the-rewards-possible-or-sth.
2. Lots of really good players (better than me) found DS few times before finding a way to pick it up.
3. There are people that know the game for years and haven't got DS in their hands (including my humble and great persona).
4. You started it, feel the pain of feedback :P .

Peace =) .
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: thelaptop on November 29, 2012, 10:07
Shifted to the DoomRL forum since it is more on DoomRL than anything else.

Thanks to Game_Hunter for reminding my sleep-deprived brain of what I can do.  =)
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: IronBeer on November 29, 2012, 10:43
I just want to put in a quick word about my experiences with the Dragonslayer and how I managed to wield it (don't worry, I won't spoil the conditions). First time I saw it, naturally I couldn't figure out how to pick it up. It was disappointing, but I moved on. After that, however, I started doing a little legwork. There's a couple dozen mortems posted on CF that feature DS-wielding characters, and I began looking for common traits among those mortems. When I ran across another Dragonslayer (much later) my initial ideas on the wield conditions weren't quite right, but a few more semi-educated guesses saw my character finally brandishing the mighty blade.

tl;dr, With a little research and thought, anybody should be able to figure out how to pick up the DS.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Tormuse on November 29, 2012, 13:19
@Cheesybox, regarding attitude, the last (and only) time I complained about difficulty in DoomRL, someone told me I deserved to die.  You got off easy.  ;)

And as for the original topic, I forgot to mention that in AoPc, closing doors behind you (C key) is surprisingly helpful in avoiding taking damage.

Quote from: IronBeer on November 29, 2012, 10:43
tl;dr, With a little research and thought, anybody should be able to figure out how to pick up the DS.

Hmmm...  I've heard this before...  I've looked through old mortems and still haven't figured it out...  Maybe I'm looking at it from the wrong angle?  I dunno...  I've had a couple people privately offer to help me, but I'd still like to figure it out on my own.

*Tormuse goes off to ponder for a while...*
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Game Hunter on November 29, 2012, 13:34
Quote from: Cheesybox on November 28, 2012, 18:58
For example, Angel of Pacifism. I've gotten to level 12 or 13 on that. I understand that they're supposed to be a challenge mode or whatever, but some of them aren't even possible. Like there is no way you can beat AoPc or AoH on anything higher than HMP without save scumming or breaking the game in some fashion. I like a good challenge but I don't like trying to turn a concrete building into gravel with my forehead.
A lot of this depends on what you're looking for in a challenge. Sometimes the challenge is to wait for the right game to give you a break (more often, wait for a game to not give you a literally-unwinnable situation) and, until then, play as best as you can as a matter of practice. Maybe you think the difficulty stepladder is too steep? I actually went directly from HNTR to UV without once touching HMP, and didn't play ITYTD until beating HNTR anyway (which only took a few weeks' worth of slightly-less-than-casual time). I do understand your point, especially for challenges like Angel of Pacifism, where a large part of the game depends on you doing basic actions and the game restricting those very actions. That's why I removed the Pacifism Platinum and Diamond badges (and reduced the difficulty for Bronze-Gold): trying to make a reward for something as unbalanced as that mode was ridiculous, so I went in the direction of "easy with tight conditions". In general, I'd like to make it so that all of the badges are in the vicinity of feasible, given decent rolls in generation and tactical and strategic know-how. We're probably not there quite yet, but I imagine that most of the hardcore players have noticed that the Diamond series is easier.

Regarding the balance of specific challenges on specific difficulties, it's actually a developer decision to affect the game as little as possible when introducing new challenges. For instance, other than Hell's Area, there are almost no instances where a specific challenge affects monster or item placement in special levels. It's not like we remove all ranged weapons in Angel of Berserk or all powerups in Angel of Purity, simply because the player has no use for them: the challenges are explicitly intended to restrict the player, sometimes to the point of being unfair. So it's probably not even a matter of subjectivity, this game is just downright mean to you with certain settings. As long as we're not asking the player to do these things most of the time, I think that's okay, especially here in the roguelike community.

In short, if you're playing with a challenge and difficulty combination that you find too unenjoyable, I would recommend not to play it. There are tons of ways to play this game (which will increase dramatically next version) but it's up to you to find what ways you enjoy.

Quote from: VANDAM on November 29, 2012, 08:57
You can make another ultimate secret or x of them. And DS won't be alone anymore.
For all you guys know, there ARE some new ultimate secrets, and nobody's found them yet. I'm not spoiling anything though...
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: thelaptop on November 29, 2012, 13:40
Quote from: Game Hunter on November 29, 2012, 13:34
For all you guys know, there ARE some new ultimate secrets, and nobody's found them yet. I'm not spoiling anything though...
Stop stringing them on unnecessarily...

/me rolls eyes
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: VANDAM on November 29, 2012, 14:27
Quote from: Game Hunter on November 29, 2012, 13:34
For all you guys know, there ARE some new ultimate secrets, and nobody's found them yet. I'm not spoiling anything though...
0.9.9.6? You got to be kidding me. what's the worst that could happen? I found DS BA Apo and it was rather easy, also, there is a bug, if you go to JC and you use BA on 26 level, you will fight with JC and still, after killing him, there will be UW ending without killing Apo. I think, that this is unfair. About ultimate secrets: maybe this is based on 4 Diamond badges that i haven't acquired yet? And, btw, what's the AoMC bug on N!? I won with untouchable cross and haven't received diamond badge.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Cheesybox on November 29, 2012, 14:48
I like extreme difficulties, but not in the sense that they require luck. Some of these challenges feel like the RNG has to set things up a certain way before you any hope of going though it. I know, I know roguelike and all, but it (and I think it's been done in the normal game) shouldn't be "certain things must happen to be able to win" and more "certain things must happen to make it unwinnable" minus player skill.

As for the DS, just look at my previous attempts/posts. My only issue is that there is no way from just playing the game to figure out how to use it unless you get lucky and meet the requirements. That turns into trial-and-error which to me is not cool in the slightest. I also wouldn't be so bitter about it if it weren't for the fact that despite my pleading years ago about the DS, this community basically told me to go suck a dick. I won't spill the beans here since this post will just get deleted and I'll face the wrath of people (like skarczew there). I kinda like the secret nature of it but I don't like how aggressive people are about keeping that secret.

Edit: Forgot there was a DoomRL specific discussion page. Thanks for moving it GH, you're always keeping my stuff in check haha (you moved a Ao100 YAVP I did a while back too)
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: VANDAM on November 29, 2012, 15:05
Quote from: Cheesybox on November 29, 2012, 14:48

As for the DS, just look at my previous attempts/posts. My only issue is that there is no way from just playing the game to figure out how to use it unless you get lucky and meet the requirements.
I can say that on N! you can easily farm DS and BA, and it's much easier to guess conditions while farming.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: thelaptop on November 29, 2012, 16:16
Quote from: Cheesybox on November 29, 2012, 14:48
Edit: Forgot there was a DoomRL specific discussion page. Thanks for moving it GH, you're always keeping my stuff in check haha (you moved a Ao100 YAVP I did a while back too)
GH didn't do that... it was me...

/me pouts because credit was given wrongly
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: AlterAsc on November 29, 2012, 16:22
Easily? If i understand the conditions for DS to appear then it's nearly impossible to get it spawn unless you're used to this kind of mad restriction.

In the end though i saw DS through all my games(and it's quite a number) only once, so luckily i don't suffer much from not knowing how to pick it up.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: skarczew on November 29, 2012, 17:14
Quote from: Cheesybox on November 29, 2012, 14:48
I also wouldn't be so bitter about it if it weren't for the fact that despite my pleading years ago about the DS, this community basically told me to go suck a dick. I won't spill the beans here since this post will just get deleted and I'll face the wrath of people (like skarczew there).
Some people do not like to have their games spoilt - this applies to the secrets they want to discover on their own.
And I am really happy you cannot find the solution on this forum.

Roguelikes can't be too easy, thats the principle.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: VANDAM on November 29, 2012, 17:38
Quote from: AlterAsc on November 29, 2012, 16:22
Easily? If i understand the conditions for DS to appear then it's nearly impossible to get it spawn unless you're used to this kind of mad restriction.

In the end though i saw DS through all my games(and it's quite a number) only once, so luckily i don't suffer much from not knowing how to pick it up.
There was a hint already: DS N! btw, don't forget to conquer some levels... If you know what I mean.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Cheesybox on November 29, 2012, 18:34
Quote from: thelaptop on November 29, 2012, 16:16
GH didn't do that... it was me...

/me pouts because credit was given wrongly
Whoops. Sho nuff. Thought GH moved it since he's done it before and I saw you mention his name haha. THANKS LAPPY :D

Quote from: skarczew on November 29, 2012, 17:14
Some people do not like to have their games spoilt - this applies to the secrets they want to discover on their own.
And I am really happy you cannot find the solution on this forum.

And I get that. Each community has it's inside jokes and whatever. What I didn't like again, was the aggressive backlash I got on one of my posts for asking (before the thread was deleted IIRC. This was also before the conditions were changed). And I don't mind being spoiled if I can't figure something out without resorting to trial-and-error since I don't find T&E compelling game design. The only "hint" I've gotten about it is that it's simple. "Simple" could mean a lot in this game but alas, the only place for information about this game is here. I just happened to get lucky with the SA forums (which apparently is wrong anyway according to another postee)
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: yaflhdztioxo on November 29, 2012, 20:05
Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.

I for one find the IWBTG series fun and relaxing.  I am alone in that.  None of my friends nor the very small selection of nerdy relatives I have are willing to get past the first screen.  Only one is even wiling to watch me dazzle and amaze as I snake past well memorized traps and tricks.  The rest break down sobbing or launch into profanity.  One couldn't even get past the map screen.  It was brutal.

Yep, Trial + Error gameplay is not for everyone.  But it is for me.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: AlterAsc on November 30, 2012, 01:11
Quote from: VANDAM on November 29, 2012, 17:38
There was a hint already: DS N! btw, don't forget to conquer some levels... If you know what I mean.
Yeah, i'm pretty sure i know what you mean. Conqueror is fine, i did it on N!, but another limitation is plain impossible for me.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: skarczew on November 30, 2012, 05:32
Quote from: Cheesybox on November 29, 2012, 18:34
And I don't mind being spoiled if I can't figure something out without resorting to trial-and-error since I don't find T&E compelling game design.
Well... I remember time playing AoC on UV. It took unusual amount of tries to be successful - dozens of dozens, while I usually need just few.
I also remember that lots of my wins were done using just average weapons (e.g. basic pistols on AoMr), and I screwed many wins while having really good equipment.
Some combinations of difficulty are more challenging than the others. And for other reason AoP is marked as BLADE.

I never found Railgun or DS to mention and I can live with that. Why? Because it is DoomRL, and not BerserkRL :P . It is just a wicked special thing in a world where it should not even exist :) .

This game is one of the few that got its difficulty set really high - and is still attractive to play (because it is balanced quite well). I don't have to achieve everything, simply because I am not on a skill level needed for that. One day I will get on it, though :) .
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Klear on November 30, 2012, 06:01
Quote from: skarczew on November 30, 2012, 05:32
This game is one of the few that got its difficulty set really high - and is still attractive to play (because it is balanced quite well). I don't have to achieve everything, simply because I am not on a skill level needed for that. One day I will get on it, though :) .
Well, the difficulty potential is high. What I like about it is that if you progress from bronze badges onward, there is a nice steady learning curve with the game being challenging while not frustrating most of the time. Except maybe the transition from UV to N!. I'm at that point now and it's definitely the longest I've been without gaining any new badges. On the other hand, by this time I'm hooked so much on the game that I don't mind it at all =)
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: skarczew on November 30, 2012, 15:41
Quote from: Klear on November 30, 2012, 06:01
Well, the difficulty potential is high. What I like about it is that if you progress from bronze badges onward, there is a nice steady learning curve with the game being challenging while not frustrating most of the time. Except maybe the transition from UV to N!. I'm at that point now and it's definitely the longest I've been without gaining any new badges. On the other hand, by this time I'm hooked so much on the game that I don't mind it at all =)
For me there is almost no difference between UV and N! (as long as you use doors and liquids). Moreover, in some aspects N! is easier than UV, which is ridiculous IMHO and should be changed.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Tormuse on November 30, 2012, 22:24
Quote from: skarczew on November 30, 2012, 15:41
For me there is almost no difference between UV and N! (as long as you use doors and liquids). Moreover, in some aspects N! is easier than UV, which is ridiculous IMHO and should be changed.

Personally, I find N! considerably more difficult than UV.  A vast majority of my games are played at N! difficulty, and I find that on the odd occasion I play UV, it's a lot more relaxing, not having to worry if any of the monsters are going to get back up and being able to re-enter explored territory, confident that there's no danger.  And yeah, if you use doors and liquids, etc. to get rid of bodies, it's a big help for N!, but those aren't always available, and sometimes the layout of the terrain doesn't make it easy to lure the larger monsters into body disposal positions.  Say what you will about the difficulty, but I find it way, *way* easier to win at UV than N!

It doesn't help that the game's formula for deciding when monster's revive is pretty wonky.  Sometimes, they get back up in the same second you killed them, so you can't even tell that they died, and sometimes, you can go for several minutes, with no revival happening at all.  Also, sometimes, large groups revive simultaneously, regardless of what order you killed them in.  (It's worst in the Mortuary, when you can get like 50 or more reviving at the same time and you're suddenly, instantly surrounded by some of the meanest monsters in the game)  If anything "should" be changed about Nightmare, I'd say it's the revival formula, but I imagine that it would be a big headache for the designers to rewrite that.  I could imagine a system where each corpse has its own timer to base its revival on, but then again, that might make the reviving a little *too* predictable and make things ridiculously easy.  I don't know if there's an ideal solution for this, but it would be nice if I could at least trust the Bruiser or Shambler to stay down long enough for the two seconds it takes me to pull out my Rocket Launcher to finish them off.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Cheesybox on November 30, 2012, 23:50
Ok, see this is what I'm talking about. Phobos Anomaly on AoP. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?
Wear no armor, souls eat me up.
Wear red armor, I'm too slow to out run them.
I don't get how there's any other strategy other than moving diagonally and running and popping a kit when I get tired to keep running, and that doesn't work.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: ZicherCZ on December 01, 2012, 00:41
Quote from: Cheesybox on November 30, 2012, 23:50
Ok, see this is what I'm talking about. Phobos Anomaly on AoP. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?
Wear no armor, souls eat me up.
Wear red armor, I'm too slow to out run them.
I don't get how there's any other strategy other than moving diagonally and running and popping a kit when I get tired to keep running, and that doesn't work.

A lucky phase works wonders there. Sure, it's not reliable by any means, but the chance of getting past the ambush room is still pretty high. Homing phase is of course even better.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: AlterAsc on December 01, 2012, 02:16
There's a completely easy and absolutely guaranteed way to pass anomaly.
Rocket
Jump.
helps all on all difficulties!

Oh, btw i remember the talk about making N! anomaly easier. Is it going to happen in 0997?
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Klear on December 01, 2012, 02:28
Quote from: ZicherCZ on December 01, 2012, 00:41
A lucky phase works wonders there. Sure, it's not reliable by any means, but the chance of getting past the ambush room is still pretty high. Homing phase is of course even better.

There are no stair in the anomaly, so a homing phase behaves the same as normal phase.

In any case, rocket jump is a surefire way to make it. Another option is a speedy build - with some tactical boots you can outrun the worst of them.
And of course, the lost souls are there only on HNTR, harder difficulties make it actually easier, since the lost souls are replaced by demons. The Nightmare demons on n! are a completely different story though. They always eat me =(

I've won plenty of UV games, but my n! games almost always end with the anomaly. I certainly wouldn't mind seeing it nerfed a bit. Right now I'm doing Ao100 on nightmare! just to bypass the anomaly. I'm hoping that by the time I make it, I will have enough experience with corpse disposal to brave Hell's Arena and later figure out a way to get through the anomaly, but so far I'm stuck.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: ZicherCZ on December 01, 2012, 04:22
Does rocketjump work on AoPc, with no weapons usage restriction? That's what Cheesybox is looking for, IIRC.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: AlterAsc on December 01, 2012, 04:35
Oh. AoPc. AoP is Angel of Purity.
No, you can't rocket jump on AoPc. HR2, no reason not to take it.
@Klear
I'd say that passing HA on N! is 25% of successfuly completing N! game (unless AoB) because additional exp and RL makes really big difference. That difference is why i struggled so much with Ao100 where you don't get help from special levels.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Klear on December 01, 2012, 05:07
Quote from: AlterAsc on December 01, 2012, 04:35
I'd say that passing HA on N! is 25% of successfuly completing N! game (unless AoB) because additional exp and RL makes really big difference. That difference is why i struggled so much with Ao100 where you don't get help from special levels.

Yeah, I figured that completing Hell's Arena is the boost that I need to finish a game on N!. I focus on Ao100 now to hone my corpse disposal skills (and indeed I feel I am probably ready to tackle the Arena by now). For some reason, I don't find the early game of Ao100 so difficult at this point. I had certainly more success with it than with passing the anomaly (which I managed only twice, IIRC, with the help of invulnerability). These days I mostly die 1) very early, by some stupid mistake or very bad luck, 2) in an arachnotron cave just before getting my build together, 3) on level 40+ through boredom. I'm still a long way from finishing an Ao100 n! game, but I'll keep on trying until I make it with the hope that standard n! game will be a relative walk in the park for me afterwards.

As for the Anomaly on AoPc, no idea then what's the best strategy, though I don't remember ever having too much trouble with it. I should give it a try again to remember. It's probably all about running like hell, like the rest of the challenge.

BTW, another useful tip for AoPc - it is often advantageous to move in the melee range of some enemies, since melee damage usually hurts a lot less.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Q2ZOv on December 01, 2012, 06:11
On AoPc you can usually easily pass anomaly because of berserk packs you got in CC. Souls on hntr can be a problem but I think that with two large globes and medkits at the start of anomaly they shouldn't be really dangerous.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Tormuse on December 01, 2012, 10:07
I just did a HNTR AoPc speedrun and I found the Lost Souls at the anomaly easy to deal with; I just stood still for a couple seconds and let the Cacodemons hit me.  Their splash damage finished off all the Souls with just a couple of hits, and then I went through the door and closed it behind me so the Cacodemons couldn't follow.  I found the Bruiser Brothers trickier to get past in comparison, but Dodgemaster was a big help there.

And on a side note, I was four seconds shy of getting Pacifism Gold.  *sigh*

Spoiler: Running Man Master Trait just for fun.  :) (click to show/hide)

EDIT:

Quote from: yaflhdztioxo on November 29, 2012, 20:05
I for one find the IWBTG series fun and relaxing.  I am alone in that.  None of my friends nor the very small selection of nerdy relatives I have are willing to get past the first screen.  Only one is even wiling to watch me dazzle and amaze as I snake past well memorized traps and tricks.  The rest break down sobbing or launch into profanity.  One couldn't even get past the map screen.  It was brutal.

Just thought I'd let you know that I tried it out the other day and got as far as the third screen.  (at impossible difficulty)  Maybe I'll try it again some day.  :)
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Klear on December 01, 2012, 11:55
Quote from: Tormuse on December 01, 2012, 10:07
I just did a HNTR AoPc speedrun and I found the Lost Souls at the anomaly easy to deal with; I just stood still for a couple seconds and let the Cacodemons hit me.  Their splash damage finished off all the Souls with just a couple of hits, and then I went through the door and closed it behind me so the Cacodemons couldn't follow.  I found the Bruiser Brothers trickier to get past in comparison, but Dodgemaster was a big help there.

And on a side note, I was four seconds shy of getting Pacifism Gold.  *sigh*

I tried it as well. "Beat" it on second attempt. I managed to make tactical armour before anomaly, so I simply outran the damn skulls. At worst you get a few nasty bites. I didn't beat the game though - on level 2 I tried my luck with a lever and got completely surrounded by imps and formers. Seeing no way out of the situation, I placed the nuke, only to see the formers blasted apart by an imp. I ran to the stairs and made it in the very last second. When I reached the mastermind, I had no nuke so I let her kill me. Awkward.

Oh, and it seems I would have gotten Pacifist Gold with time to spare if I didn't use up the nuke (and if I didn't have it already). I wasn't even trying for a speedrun and actually stopped for a few seconds to pet my cat =)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Tormuse on December 01, 2012, 14:27
Quote from: Klear on December 01, 2012, 11:55

Oh, and it seems I would have gotten Pacifist Gold with time to spare if I didn't use up the nuke (and if I didn't have it already). I wasn't even trying for a speedrun and actually stopped for a few seconds to pet my cat =)

KITTY!!!  :D

(er...  *ahem*)

Yeah, apparently, I never got Pacifist Gold for this version.  That's been corrected now, so time for me to update my signature!  :)
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Cheesybox on December 01, 2012, 15:56
Guess I haven't logged enough hours to learn this stuff. I feel like all my buddies when I'm teaching them League XP (they always lose to such and such a champ, I go and destroy them, and I'm like "its easy, just do this, this, and that")
Totally forgot about rocketjumping, and totally forgot about phase devices.
Trying to just win a normal UV game and having a tough time dealing with the Hellknights that spawn on level 2 or 3. And a question I've had for some time about you pro guise. What does your inventory usually look like? Depending on the weapon I usually keep 5 or 6 stacks of ammo for when formers stop spawning and I can't resupply off them and then use rockets and plasma when revs/mancubi/arachnos spawn constantly. Is that too much? And what about envirosuits and phase devices? I like to keep one for those "just in case" moments.

Edit: Like the bizzare Los vs bullet travel lines. I know just because you can't see a monster doesn't mean you can't hit them (like radar- and corner-shooting) but like weird S curves. Sometimes you can hit em with shottys, other times not. Like I just cleared out the Chained Court by throwing shells at the Barons from the middle. Took maybe 80 or 90 shells, but zero damage taken to gain a level? I'll take that any day.
So is a shotgun and a stack of shells worth keeping for the whole game?
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: AlterAsc on December 01, 2012, 16:34
My inventory looks like a complete mess as i want to take everything. In reality it heavily depends on the game type and build.
General tip: take enough ammo to be sure it will be enough for your playstyle, take consumables that you think will be useful, if you're not sure that you use something (you have that feeling from your experience) maybe you're better off taking something else.
Sorry, I want to be more specific about it but if i try to write all my thoughts now it'll take too much time and it's kinda late. Maybe tomorrow.
Also someone already wrote a guide about inventory management, you can try searching for it.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: skarczew on December 01, 2012, 20:33
Quote from: Cheesybox on December 01, 2012, 15:56
Trying to just win a normal UV game and having a tough time dealing with the Hellknights that spawn on level 2 or 3. And a question I've had for some time about you pro guise. What does your inventory usually look like? Depending on the weapon I usually keep 5 or 6 stacks of ammo for when formers stop spawning and I can't resupply off them and then use rockets and plasma when revs/mancubi/arachnos spawn constantly. Is that too much? And what about envirosuits and phase devices? I like to keep one for those "just in case" moments.
Depends on build, challenge, etc. Knights are easy to be dealt with using combat shotgun, for example.

If you use shotties then keep shells no matter what, if you use rapid fire weapons go for bullets and plasma afterwards ...

Inventory on non-challenge build:
Keep 1-2 env packs (if you go for Lava Pits get 2-3). Keep 2-3 phase / homing phase devices (more if going for specific special levels). Keep RL and 1-2 stacks of rockets. Keep shotgun and 2-3 stacks of shells for radar shotting. Keep 1-few weapons of choice and enough ammo. Keep 2-5 med packs. Keep some spare armors.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Tormuse on December 01, 2012, 22:06
It's interesting seeing different playing styles reflected in inventory choices!  :D

Personally, I don't bother with envirosuits at all, unless I'm going for the Lava Pits, in which case I take just one.  Most of the time, I can get around levels without stepping in fluids, and even if I do, I only step in one or two squares, and if I do it while running, I take minimal damage.  As for the Lava Pits, there are three envirosuits on that level, so I only need one to get me as far as one of the islands that has one, and then I can use those ones to complete the level.  (Of course, I usually play Nightmare, so the suits last longer; if you're playing a lower difficulty level, you might want to bring more)  :)  Of course, it's worth noting that envirosuits give 25% fire and acid protection to your whole body, so they can also be used to give you an edge in combat.  (perhaps against the Cyberdemon?)  Personally, I'd rather just avoid getting hit in the first place, but depending on your playing style, using the suits like that might be a good strategy for you.

I usually take one Phase Device, preferably a Homing Phase Device, just in case.  I find Phase Devices too unreliable; they take me into the middle of danger as often as they get me out of it.  Of course, again, this may be a reflection of the fact that I play Nightmare difficulty, so there are a lot more enemies, even in areas I've already explored.  If I have an HPD, I'll often clear the area around the exit first, so that if I run into any trouble elsewhere in the level, I know that using the HPD will take me to safety.

If I'm playing Nightmare, at least two stacks of rockets, maybe more.  (They're the easiest way to get rid of bodies, so I want a lot of them)  Otherwise, one stack is sufficient, in case I want to do some wall-busting or if Arch-Viles are giving me trouble.  :)

5 or 6 med-packs, and 3 or 4 spare suits of armour.  (If I have regenerating armour, like the Tactical Armour, then just one spare suit of armour)

The rest depends on what build I'm using, but I like to have a lot of shells, because I'm fond of radar shooting with the shotgun, I like the ability to damage multiple targets with the spread, and the knock-back is frequently useful as well.  I'll take maybe 4 stacks or more of shells.  (and yes, I use them to the end of the game)  I only carry bullets if I'm using either a pistol build, rapid-fire build, or if I'm playing Angel of 100 and I need some back-up ammo in case I run out of other stuff.  (I'd rather melt my enemies with plasma weaponry)  :)  Oftentimes, I'll have a Chaingun in my inventory, but I won't carry any bullets besides the ones already in the Chaingun.  I just keep it around in case I need some precision shooting, but I don't have time to reload the Plasma Rifle.

EDIT:  And, of course, I'll have one melee weapon, usually the Chainsaw, or in the late-game, Longinus Spear or Azrael's Scythe.  If it's Angel of 100, it'll probably be a Chainsword.  Maybe someday, if I'm lucky, it'll be the Dragonslayer.  ;)

EDIT2:  And on an unrelated note, I just played a little more of IWBTG, and I came to the irrefutable conclusion that the designers are assholes.  :P
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: skarczew on December 02, 2012, 05:43
Quote from: Tormuse on December 01, 2012, 22:06
EDIT2:  And on an unrelated note, I just played a little more of IWBTG, and I came to the irrefutable conclusion that the designers are assholes.  :P
There was a guy that completed the game without dying at all.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Klear on December 02, 2012, 05:48
Quote from: skarczew on December 02, 2012, 05:43
There was a guy that completed the game without dying at all.

I wouldn't want to be that guy.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: skarczew on December 02, 2012, 09:00
Quote from: Klear on December 02, 2012, 05:48
I wouldn't want to be that guy.
Why? :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTEealbXCYw
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Tormuse on December 02, 2012, 12:19
Quote from: Klear on December 02, 2012, 05:48
I wouldn't want to be that guy.

http://instantrimshot.com/

Quote from: skarczew on December 02, 2012, 09:00
Why? :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTEealbXCYw

Yeah, I saw that video after I gave up trying to win.  :P  I doubt I'll ever muster the patience to go through the whole game, but I thought the tributes to classic Nintendo games were pretty cool!  :)
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: 2DeviationsOut on December 15, 2012, 14:54
I understand why people use armor that restricts movespeed, but IMO it's a mistake. If you check over my mortems, you'll almost never see me wearing anything that drops movespeed, and usually I'll use anything that boosts it. For example, I won't use Red Armor if I have tactical armor, and the only thing that'll get me to drop my tac boots is something that gives me more speed, like gravs. Basically, it's a fool's game to think about taking less damage from something. Most enemies on the harder difficulties are lethal enough that you'll just get blown away. So, you need to dodge everything that comes in, and max your offense so you can kill things before they can fire.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Tormuse on December 16, 2012, 09:02
Yeah, as my skill has improved in this game over the past couple years, (has it really been that long?)  I've found that I really, really value speed over armour...  But I do still remember my beginnings, back when I was playing 0.9.9.1.  I wasn't able to win until I regularly got TaN and Iro because I kept getting instakilled by the late game enemies.  (especially Mancubi!  GRR!)  Eventually, I learned how to avoid taking a lot of that damage in the first place, (though I haven't honed that ability to the level of 2DeviationsOut here)  ;)  and was able to cut down on my use of those traits.  So, I guess what I'm saying is that for me, as a beginning player, armour was a useful crutch to keep me alive long enough to figure out the game well enough that I didn't really need it any more...  which isn't to say I never wear, say, red or blue armour; I just use them as my back-up for select situations, rather than wearing them all the time.

Also, since you seem to have joined this discussion, 2Dev, I'm curious about what you have to say about our above conversation about inventory.  What does your inventory selection typically look like?
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: 2DeviationsOut on December 16, 2012, 13:49
Well, my inventories are different depending on the build. If I'm going MAC, then I'll have:

2-3 backpacked stacks of ammo for my main
A couple of B-mod BFGs for ammo storage
1 backup primary
1-2 Homing Phases
1 Phase
1 Large Medkit
1 Piercing Chainsaw (For the UC)
Maybe 1 enviropack
1 Arena Master's Staff
The rest is all mods/exotics/uniques

If I'm not going MAC, then I'll carry the same utility set, but 5-6 stacks of ammo.
Title: Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
Post by: Buzzard on December 19, 2012, 14:01
Does anyone else feel that Tower of Babel on certain difficulties is just too hard without a specific build or a phase device?