Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: ParaSait on April 01, 2013, 08:43
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A thread from yesterday kinda got me thinking. Yesterday I managed to "earn" a super cheap daredevil gold by completing AoB/AoOC, since I started with a chainsaw, which in turn made it easy for me to get the spear and win nearly effortlessly.
I am guessing that, similarly, it's also easy to get cheap pacifist badges by doing AoPc/AoOC, since usually the only real bother to AoOC is spidie, which is no longer a problem with the guaranteed AoPc nuke.
Dualangels are supposed to be extra challenging, however, certain bonuses and edges you get from the one challenge sometimes hugely benefit you on the other challenge. I am therefore concerned about a pretty serious balance issue here...
thoughts?
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I think you hit a nail with that one. Pretty much spot on observation.
I think the main candidates that can be uber-cheesed for badges are especially max carnage and overconfidence. All the other are pretty much ok as duals. But these two make terrific combinations indeed imo...
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So... make AoMC and AoOC block badges/medals where necessary?
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Fully agree.
Initially, I tought only AoMC would be abusable, but after winning a N! AoB game in 6.32 minutes, it sounds obvious to me that I could abuse it to get 100% kill in N! AoB, or other things like this...
I don't know if many players would abuse this, but this is indeed bad balance, and should be corrected.
I won't exploit this, but I did play AoMC just to get arena pwnage medal, and usually take MAc & assemble Tac boots... where is the boundary between exploit and use of "non-overpowered" aspects of the game ? (well, way before MAc, imo :)
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I'm glad that other people realised abusiveness of AoOC/AoMC/AoCn/AoLT dual-angels.
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...similarly, it's also easy to get cheap pacifist badges by doing AoPc/AoOC, since usually the only real bother to AoOC is spidie, which is no longer a problem with the guaranteed AoPc nuke.
Unless there was a change from the Beta, you don't get the guaranteed nuke; AoPc/AoOC is actually harder than you might expect. :)
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Unless there was a change from the Beta, you don't get the guaranteed nuke; AoPc/AoOC is actually harder than you might expect. :)
No change from beta. No free nuke is given on AoPc/AoOC.
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Don't allow any badges from dual angel games except for balanced combinations.
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I actually would like to chime in with the opposite perspective. I would prefer to leave all but the most banal of abuses because I would like to encourage creativity when getting badges.
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Honestly, I don't think all badges need to get nerfed from dual angels, just the ones that get their challenge from the long run of the game.
Badges that need more on the luck side and short term stragety to achieve however do not really need that much of change, such as vaults, mortuary or other special level related ones.
well apart from the bug with the chainsaw, god i wish I'd have knewn that earlier
Biggest thing that really breaks the another challenge + AoOC is honestly speaking: Scout.
That stair sense is just too OP in this case.
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could this also work if you only get compenstaion bonuses from the 1st challenge selected (so you don't get max damage/accuracy if the 2nd challenge chosen is AoMC, but the enemies still do, making it a sort of super challenge).
Also, any challenge where the scout doesn't get to view the stairs should be non-compatible for badge earning with confidence/over confidence, as those are the challenges where finding 21 sets of stairs are considered vital to the challenge. [i still think the scout should know where any computer maps are as compensation in these challenges, or maybe computer maps only reveil stairs for scouts in these challenges].
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[i still think the scout should know where any computer maps are as compensation in these challenges, or maybe computer maps only reveil stairs for scouts in these challenges].
That's what Intuition is for. I find it is a more important trait in AoPc than hellrunner...
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could this also work if you only get compenstaion bonuses from the 1st challenge selected (so you don't get max damage/accuracy if the 2nd challenge chosen is AoMC, but the enemies still do, making it a sort of super challenge).
Nice idea. +1. Getting both bonuses is what actually makes people abuse the hell out of aomc and aooc.
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I would like to encourage creativity when getting badges.
There's no creativity in getting something via AoOC. Rush 7 levels, win. Optionally take nuclear BFG from Mortuary/Limbo. Skill, strategy, weapon choice? Meh, just run and run.
Same with AoMC - free damage and accuracy boost?Sure, why not.
Getting old Marksman Diamond via Vampire - now that was creative.
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I'm just going to throw out there that in AoOC, 99% of the attempts are still probably going to die on level 1, but you only need that one lucky game to win in just a few minutes. I wouldn't say that combining Angels with AoOC makes things easier per se; it's just that with the game so much shorter, it makes it faster to just keep restarting until you get a lucky starting position and then breeze through the rest of it.
Getting old Marksman Diamond via Vampire - now that was creative.
Why, thank you! :D
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There's no creativity in getting something via AoOC. Rush 7 levels, win. Optionally take nuclear BFG from Mortuary/Limbo. Skill, strategy, weapon choice? Meh, just run and run.
Same with AoMC - free damage and accuracy boost?Sure, why not.
Getting old Marksman Diamond via Vampire - now that was creative.
To be fair, you still need some form of strategy, it's just some of them are pretty much just luck once you figure out exactly what it is you need to do.
I'm just going to throw out there that in AoOC, 99% of the attempts are still probably going to die on level 1, but you only need that one lucky game to win in just a few minutes. I wouldn't say that combining Angels with AoOC makes things easier per se; it's just that with the game so much shorter, it makes it faster to just keep restarting until you get a lucky starting position and then breeze through the rest of it.
This. You're also exempt from thinking of a long term strategy: planning out what to keep in your inventory and what special levels to visit, making sure you're ready for anomaly/cyberdemon etc. Dual-angels in AoOC are actually pretty fun and VERY useful since you get to practice the last parts of the game with typically worse equipment, so I'd definitely like to have the option of having AoOC dual angels, even if the badges are blocked.
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Dumb question, does it really make a difference if a couple of people scum a few badges this way? They are only cheating themselves.
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Dumb question, does it really make a difference if a couple of people scum a few badges this way? They are only cheating themselves.
That's one (valid) way of thinking about it, but the developers seem to care about that kinda thing. Otherwise saving wouldn't be blocked in N!, for example.
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Dumb question, does it really make a difference if a couple of people scum a few badges this way? They are only cheating themselves.
Why record badges and medals at all then?
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Dumb question, does it really make a difference if a couple of people scum a few badges this way? They are only cheating themselves.
It matters because badges = bragging rights.