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121
Requests For Features / Thermie made into a special level reward?
« on: December 28, 2009, 08:04 »
You know, I really like my thermies. For lots of reasons: their icon uses a bright blue which is appealing to the eye, they have a nifty 'are you sure' message before use, and make a BIG BANG!
...but they're quite rare, don't ya think?
Ignoring the occasional fluke where they're abnormally abundant, I usually only see one every other game. This is bothersome to me, because I like blowing things up, so I was thinking, couldn't there be a special level that gives a guaranteed thermie as a reward?
It could be called "The Factory" or "Demonic Battlefield" or something similar, and have a thermie as a reward for completing it.
Seems like a good idea to me.
...but they're quite rare, don't ya think?
Ignoring the occasional fluke where they're abnormally abundant, I usually only see one every other game. This is bothersome to me, because I like blowing things up, so I was thinking, couldn't there be a special level that gives a guaranteed thermie as a reward?
It could be called "The Factory" or "Demonic Battlefield" or something similar, and have a thermie as a reward for completing it.
Seems like a good idea to me.
122
Requests For Features / Re: Purpose of Unlockables
« on: September 22, 2009, 21:32 »
Well, it would seem that we have an irreconcilable differences, as it would appear that you're all pretty adamant on the "Unlockables Features as a reward" stance. Let me just say this however:
This may just be me, but I don't think it's acceptable that a game do something just because other games, on different systems, targetted at different audiences, and are different genres altogether did them, and were aggravating even then. I know I would have enjoyed the games you listed much more if there were no unlockables.
I'm glad to hear that you've played Nethack as well. I've beaten it 3 times now, but let's not get sidetracked by superfluous analogies.
I hate to be rude Mr. Kornel, but I must say that that is an absurd assertion. Things which are part of the game, are fair challenges, and are by no means arbitrary don't seem to me to be what I'm talking about. That would be like me saying "How come I have to unlock access to Hell's Armory in DoomRL? Why can't I just start and be in there already? Every time I die, I have to play the game and complete it's challenges to get there!".
I don't wish to argue with you on needless points Mr. Kornel, as it would appear that you want to design your game in your own way. I can respect that, and if you have no intention of listening to me, then just say so and I will be gone.
Unlocking things and improving one's profile is a huge draw for many people. It's one of the main reasons kongregate has been successful, compared to other flash gaming sites that don't have challenges or medals. It's one of the reasons for goldeneye's huge popularity back on the nintendo64. Going back even further, it's comparable to completing challenges in order to unlock characters in fighting games- in tekken for example, every character has a sub-boss character they must fight before the last boss. Those subbosses are all unlockable by winning the game with the character that fights them, and then the last boss by winning with all of the subbosses.
The idea, I guess, is that it's that process that is the draw. This is why some modern games have absurd numbers of unlockables. Smash brothers brawl is an example of a game that does this well. There is an insane amount of unlockable content, but there are multiple ways to unlock the most important content, (the extra characters) and much of the content would be meaningless to people that don't care about being a completionist (stickers, medals).
In my case, I haven't played doomrl in a few months now because I've been eagerly anticipating the new release, and don't want to waste my time on my old profile that won't be transferred. ;)
This may just be me, but I don't think it's acceptable that a game do something just because other games, on different systems, targetted at different audiences, and are different genres altogether did them, and were aggravating even then. I know I would have enjoyed the games you listed much more if there were no unlockables.
Comparing DoomRL to Nethack is a pretty hard sell, you don't have to unlock anything in Nethack, you just start and everything is there.No it isn't. I played a lot of it, and still didn't manage to "unlock" access to Gehenna. Moreover, it's a stupid kind of access, because I need to do all the needed dungeon level challenges again each time I die or ascend, instead of just hopping into Gehenna game.
I'm glad to hear that you've played Nethack as well. I've beaten it 3 times now, but let's not get sidetracked by superfluous analogies.
I hate to be rude Mr. Kornel, but I must say that that is an absurd assertion. Things which are part of the game, are fair challenges, and are by no means arbitrary don't seem to me to be what I'm talking about. That would be like me saying "How come I have to unlock access to Hell's Armory in DoomRL? Why can't I just start and be in there already? Every time I die, I have to play the game and complete it's challenges to get there!".
I don't wish to argue with you on needless points Mr. Kornel, as it would appear that you want to design your game in your own way. I can respect that, and if you have no intention of listening to me, then just say so and I will be gone.
123
Requests For Features / Re: Purpose of Unlockables
« on: September 22, 2009, 10:36 »
I understand we are of differing opinions, and I can see your point of view, but the way I think of it:
The ranking system can be divorced from the unlockable system with little harm to the goals you've mentioned. Aiming for a higher rank will still be a perfectly viable pursuit, but now players wouldn't need to have to play many hours worth of play, or have to struggle in the earlier challenges to unlock the things. They can just go to what they want and participate in the same ranking system in their own way.
This may be harsh of me, but the unlockable system, to me, seems like a way of artificially increasing play time. It's like, instead of giving the player an in-game reason to continue playing, it's providing a metagame reason.
You see, to me, there's no reason why I should have to do all these other things if I want to see all the features of the game. That's all I'm trying to say.
The ranking system can be divorced from the unlockable system with little harm to the goals you've mentioned. Aiming for a higher rank will still be a perfectly viable pursuit, but now players wouldn't need to have to play many hours worth of play, or have to struggle in the earlier challenges to unlock the things. They can just go to what they want and participate in the same ranking system in their own way.
This may be harsh of me, but the unlockable system, to me, seems like a way of artificially increasing play time. It's like, instead of giving the player an in-game reason to continue playing, it's providing a metagame reason.
You see, to me, there's no reason why I should have to do all these other things if I want to see all the features of the game. That's all I'm trying to say.
124
Requests For Features / Re: Purpose of Unlockables
« on: September 22, 2009, 08:19 »In 0.9.9, all challenges and difficulty modes are unlocked much earlier than in the current version.
Now, I see that. It's something of a cold comfort though, since it doesn't answer my main question: What is the purpose of having unlockables?
125
Requests For Features / Re: Purpose of Unlockables
« on: September 22, 2009, 08:03 »In my opinion, skill ranks and unlockables are the greatest thing that ever happened to DoomRL. DoomRL games are both very short and very winnable, compared to traditional roguelikes. Winning a single DoomRL game, even on N!, is a relatively simple challenge compared to ascending in NetHack, for example. So for DoomRL it makes sense to have some challenges of increasing dificulty spanning multiple games.
The downside to rank requirements is that a player might get stuck on a single requirement, while otherwise meeting all requirements to progress, or even skip the next rank. The upside is that the requirements set specific goals, which give players a sense of accomplishment when they're met. Also, watching doomguy get killed isn't as big a deal as the death of your character in ADOM, or Crawl.
I don't think the requirements for unlockables are arbitrary, but I can see your point that gameplay shouldn't be restricted unnecessarily. The only response I can come up with is that it isn't gameplay that's restricted, it's the difficulty of gameplay and the challenge modes. I've yet to see the first DoomRL noob owning the game in UV on their first run. Well, except for Blade, but he's like the Stig of Shotgun.
Personally, I like the inaccessible nature of RLs in general, and I expect them to raise impossible challenges. DoomRL is exceptional in that it draws out the impossible challenge over lots of short games, instead of a really long one.
I don't mean to be confrontational, but it all seems to me is excuse-making.
Comparing DoomRL to Nethack is a pretty hard sell, you don't have to unlock anything in Nethack, you just start and everything is there. All of the extra difficulty is built in as well, in the form of the conduct system, which tracks how you're purposefully limiting yourself.
You say that newer players wouldn't be interested in the extra-hard challenges, but you're not being very considerate to the player that would like to play on a public computer, has had their data wiped because of computer problems, or if it was accidentally deleted by a meddlesome sibling. An experienced player starting up the program would have to jump through all the hoops just to get at what they want, which I feel is counter-productive in terms of what a game is supposed to be: fun for the player.
Also, there's a difference between something being inaccessible, and something being challenging. Going back to the Nethack analogy, Nethack is challenging because everything is trying to kill you, and simple mistakes can spell doom, however, it's inaccessible because you have to literally learn what each key on the keyboard does, and THEN some extra spelt out commands, which is a daunting task.
It's the difference between making the game challenging, and making playing the game challenging, if that makes sense.
126
Discussion / Re: I'm pretty new here.
« on: September 22, 2009, 05:38 »
Is it just that the levels have a certain percent chance of spawning or not spawning between any set number of floors?
Like, for example, Hell's Arena. Sometimes it spawns on the 2 floor, or the 3 floor, but it's apparently very likely to spawn, as I've yet to play a game where I haven't run into it.
Like, for example, Hell's Arena. Sometimes it spawns on the 2 floor, or the 3 floor, but it's apparently very likely to spawn, as I've yet to play a game where I haven't run into it.
127
Requests For Features / Purpose of Unlockables
« on: September 22, 2009, 05:35 »
Now, I'm pretty new around here, and so my opinion of this game isn't as full as most of the vets around here, but even with my inexperience, I have to ask, what's the purpose of all these unlockables?
What I mean is, when you first start the game, all the challenges and the upper tiers of difficulty are locked until the player completes some arbitrary goals beforehand. These goals are both difficult and time consuming and I see no reason this feature in the first place.
Yes, I know these can be construed as rewards for playing the game well, but I'm of the philosophy that games shouldn't limit the player on what type of fun they want to have, that it's the game's job to provide the fun, and nothing else.
Now, I'm not bashing the 'rank' system entirely, I think it's very nice. It gives a little title to the players to make them feel good, and neatly falls into what I'd call a 'bragging rights reward'. It's aesthetic, it doesn't serve a practical purpose, but gives the player a reward for their hard work.
It's just that I don't think a player's rank should prohibit him from playing the game the way he wants to play.
Now, DoomRL is a roguelike, a genre I'm familiar with. Now, I'm of the opinion that a problem that a lot of roguelikes share is accessibility. New people have a hard time picking them up for any number of reasons. If someone that had never played a roguelike before were to download this game, and saw that most of it's challenges and difficulty were locked, and then upon doing more research (assuming he had the patience) to see what it takes to unlock them, and then found that he would have to do any number of difficult and time-consuming things, there is the very real possibility of him being turned off from the game, and just refusing to play it.
I really like DoomRL, and while I'm sure Mr. Kornel put thought into the system he's made, I think it would be for the best if the game gave all it's features to the player on startup, rather than expecting him to work for them.
What I mean is, when you first start the game, all the challenges and the upper tiers of difficulty are locked until the player completes some arbitrary goals beforehand. These goals are both difficult and time consuming and I see no reason this feature in the first place.
Yes, I know these can be construed as rewards for playing the game well, but I'm of the philosophy that games shouldn't limit the player on what type of fun they want to have, that it's the game's job to provide the fun, and nothing else.
Now, I'm not bashing the 'rank' system entirely, I think it's very nice. It gives a little title to the players to make them feel good, and neatly falls into what I'd call a 'bragging rights reward'. It's aesthetic, it doesn't serve a practical purpose, but gives the player a reward for their hard work.
It's just that I don't think a player's rank should prohibit him from playing the game the way he wants to play.
Now, DoomRL is a roguelike, a genre I'm familiar with. Now, I'm of the opinion that a problem that a lot of roguelikes share is accessibility. New people have a hard time picking them up for any number of reasons. If someone that had never played a roguelike before were to download this game, and saw that most of it's challenges and difficulty were locked, and then upon doing more research (assuming he had the patience) to see what it takes to unlock them, and then found that he would have to do any number of difficult and time-consuming things, there is the very real possibility of him being turned off from the game, and just refusing to play it.
I really like DoomRL, and while I'm sure Mr. Kornel put thought into the system he's made, I think it would be for the best if the game gave all it's features to the player on startup, rather than expecting him to work for them.
128
Discussion / Re: I'm pretty new here.
« on: September 22, 2009, 04:57 »
Ah, thanks.
Also, is there some sort of weird limit preventing me from visiting certain special levels? I like doing hells arena, but if I do it, I never seem to find The Wall.
The order I usually get the special levels is: Hell's Arena > Chained Court > Halls of Carnage. It skips The Wall entirely, unless I've missed the entrance to it a dozen times now.
Also, is there some sort of weird limit preventing me from visiting certain special levels? I like doing hells arena, but if I do it, I never seem to find The Wall.
The order I usually get the special levels is: Hell's Arena > Chained Court > Halls of Carnage. It skips The Wall entirely, unless I've missed the entrance to it a dozen times now.
129
Bug Reports / Re: Sound Bug Crash
« on: September 22, 2009, 04:30 »
Well, I'll be sure to do that next time Aki.
I remember something ASTOUNDINGLY odd happening shortly before the crash though. When I entered the floor, I was in small 3x3 room, with me in the corner, and every other square occupied by demons and cacodemons. This has never happened before, and I don't know why. I used a spare phaser to warp out, but I'm not sure if that's related to the crash or not.
I mention this because I know of some other games that'll do truly weird things right before they crash.
I remember something ASTOUNDINGLY odd happening shortly before the crash though. When I entered the floor, I was in small 3x3 room, with me in the corner, and every other square occupied by demons and cacodemons. This has never happened before, and I don't know why. I used a spare phaser to warp out, but I'm not sure if that's related to the crash or not.
I mention this because I know of some other games that'll do truly weird things right before they crash.
130
Discussion / Re: I'm pretty new here.
« on: September 22, 2009, 03:55 »
Updating the wiki sounds like a worthwhile endeavor, but unfortunately I'm still painfully new to the game, so I wouldn't be able to provide new or accurate information.
I do have some more questions though, that aren't answered by the wiki as far as I know.
Does running (performed with the , key) make you move faster in game-time, or is it just so you don't have to hold down on the directional keys?
Also, Running (the tactic, with the TAB key) has some unique advantages, but I can't find if there's any unique benefits to being cautious or tired.
I do have some more questions though, that aren't answered by the wiki as far as I know.
Does running (performed with the , key) make you move faster in game-time, or is it just so you don't have to hold down on the directional keys?
Also, Running (the tactic, with the TAB key) has some unique advantages, but I can't find if there's any unique benefits to being cautious or tired.
131
Discussion / Re: I'm pretty new here.
« on: September 22, 2009, 00:55 »
I just assumed it was one of those wiki's where the fanbase can add to it and edit the articles.
Now, I'm not trying to bash it, I'm just saying it's a little vague in certain parts. Like for the Vault, which I encountered and was very confused by, so I consulted the wiki and it told me:
and then just leaves it at that, with no other explanation, which is why I had to ask here in another topic.
Now, I'm not trying to bash it, I'm just saying it's a little vague in certain parts. Like for the Vault, which I encountered and was very confused by, so I consulted the wiki and it told me:
Quote
It is possible to use a Rocket Launcher to get into the left and right rooms, if you know how. Getting into the center room requires a little bit of creativity.
and then just leaves it at that, with no other explanation, which is why I had to ask here in another topic.
132
Discussion / Re: The (un)official DoomRL strategy guide!
« on: September 21, 2009, 23:38 »
I really like this little guide of yours. I can't figure out how to properly do the 'corner-trick' or however you referred to it in Hell's Arena.
Those Cacodemons are tough, so I've been trying to defeat them using that trick, but it keeps backfiring on me violently as they close in so fast and I can't seem to make enough time to reload.
Those Cacodemons are tough, so I've been trying to defeat them using that trick, but it keeps backfiring on me violently as they close in so fast and I can't seem to make enough time to reload.
133
Bug Reports / Re: Sound Bug Crash
« on: September 21, 2009, 23:34 »
Heh.... the game crashed for no reason. Not because of the music or inventory, I just got a message that said "Read access violation" or somesuch, and then it turned off.
I was doing SO WELL too! Darnit.
I was doing SO WELL too! Darnit.
134
Discussion / Re: I'm pretty new here.
« on: September 21, 2009, 21:36 »
Ah, thanks.
This may be just me not understanding something, but is there a way I can have a custom avatar? I don't want one of the doom pics that are laid out for me.
Also, is it just me, or does the wiki seem... a tad incomplete? It's informative, yes, but it seems to refuse to elaborate or go into detail on alot of things. I understand the game is in beta, I just feel that the information on it could be better.
This may be just me not understanding something, but is there a way I can have a custom avatar? I don't want one of the doom pics that are laid out for me.
Also, is it just me, or does the wiki seem... a tad incomplete? It's informative, yes, but it seems to refuse to elaborate or go into detail on alot of things. I understand the game is in beta, I just feel that the information on it could be better.
135
Pre-0.9.9 / Re: I'm not sure what the acronyms are, but this is my first victory!
« on: September 21, 2009, 04:38 »
Ah, I'll alter it then. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll definitely try to win on harder difficulties.