Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: Ferret2495 on May 26, 2011, 13:44
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I'm ashamedly terribad at most of DoomRL, because it seems the only time I can get anywhere reliably is on a dedicated shotgun game. AoMr is giving me huge amounts of grief--the farthest I seem to have gotten is the shambler (who has killed me every time).
The biggest problem so far with AoMr has proven to be the early game, wherein I'm constantly getting killed by demons (and, to a lesser extent, imps). This is particularly true in Hell's Arena, during which they come in pairs at the very least and basically guarantee my death (to the point where I'm just CAD'ing every time I see at least two demons in the early game.
I know you can throw them off with doors, but I don't always have that option, and until I get DG I just can't kill them quickly enough to avoid damage. Any tips for a hopeless marksman-to-be to deal with pinkies (and the early part of the AoMr game in general)?
Thanks in advance. I know you guys probably get tired of these, but it seems I was not meant to excel at the turn-based DooM.
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Do you know the pistol has alternative fire? Shift+F will fire a much more accurate shot, at the cost of some time.
In the early game, this is extremely handy especially if you have to deal with just one enemy at the time.
Also what path of traits are you choosing?
EDIT: Oh, and you don't have to kill shambler. I, as an average, not too elite player, have not even attempted to fight him yet with pistols. :D
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Do you know the pistol has alternative fire? Shift+F will fire a much more accurate shot, at the cost of some time.
Yes; I actually use this pretty liberally during the first couple of stages. It really helps in the first level.
Also what path of traits are you choosing?
So far I have been going at it with this intent:
SoaG -> SoaG -> DG -> EE -> SoaG -> HR -> HR -> Dodgemaster -> MGK -> Fin -> Fin (I don't know how much farther this could go in a normal run, but I suppose I'd go Whizkid if I could go further)
I stick EE in there for better chance-to-hit; I guess I could axe that if it really turns out to be unnecessary. I figured it'd help with the ammo management aspect.
EDIT: Oh, and you don't have to kill shambler. I, as an average, not too elite player, have not even attempted to fight him yet with pistols. :D
I figured if I actually managed to kill it, the benefits would be well worth the pain.
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Killing shambler with pistols is hard even on easier difficulties. I personally only managed to do this once and I was using high power pistol (or maybe two). Actually, I found this assembly very useful early in the game, especially against said demons.
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Killing shambler means just a few mods. Aside from the xp boost it's not that much worth the trouble without Whiz.
You should try a build where you collect as much damage traits as you can and ignore MGk. SoG->SoG->DG->SoG->SoB->SoB->SoB->(and from that point I recommend some EE or so) works very well for me.
What is also very important with pistols, is actually speed and reload speed. Especially with viles and their friends later on. I'd say, assemble yourself one speedloader pistol and another with a tech mod.
All that is the build I usually do. Together with some good armor, you'll eventually be kicking EPIC ass. Maybe that's more your style too. :D
(Also remember: DG can get pricy on ammo. When you have a good collection of damage traits so far, if there's not much danger around, try to equip just one pistol if you feel like your ammo is getting rather scarce)
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Well something great about shotguns is the crowd control ability + semi reliable knockback even early game. This isn't true anymore when using a pistol.
You have to try fighting as much as possible only one ennemy at the time. Also tactical placement gets very important,the less the bad guys can retaliate the better.
Well i have some footage of me kicking demons asses on AoMr UV (Maybe i should put the whole run on it as a lets play...)
http://www.youtube.com/user/Sirdec006
Also only practice makes you get better ;-)
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I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that 3xSoG brings more damage per second to the table than 2xSoG + DG (difference being that you get MGk later, but that's no problem if you're not going with that to begin with!), so I suggest going SoG->SoG->SoG->DG, then what ParaSait said.
(Note: this is based on what I've read in some guides, notably the unofficial strategy guide. Personally I'm a pretty bad player and I've never won an AoMr game, not for lack of trying.)
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Well. On HNTR I usually do SoG->SoG->DG->SoG->... since you don't level up very fast.
While on HMP I usually do SoG->SoG->SoG->DG->... because you level up a lot faster and I figured that by the time I already reach lvl3 I don't actually need dual pistols yet.
EDIT: Also keep in mind, the good thing with DG is that you probably don't neccesarily do more damage, but you do have 2x the chance to hit something at all per turn. That can really make a difference if you are not focusing on accuracy too much.
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(Ninja'd by ParaSait)
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that 3xSoG brings more damage per second to the table than 2xSoG + DG.
This is true (ignoring reload times and accuracy). This difference is < 1 dps though.
I firmly believe that 2xSoG + DG is a better choice for the following reasons.
1) DG allows you to fire twice without being interrupted. This means enemies like former foos and imps can be killed with no chance to retaliate.
2) DG allows you to fire twice as many shots before reloading. HKs and cacos can be killed or nearly killed without reloading with SoaG x 2 + DG. (Hint: if you need to reload and the enemy you are fighting is almost dead, the do a single reload.)
General tips:
Early on, carry a pistol in your prepared slot and a few extras in your inventory. Deciding when to use these is tricky, but as a general rule, switching to a new pistol is better than reloading a T modded pistol if you are firing 2 (for prepared swap) more or 1 (for inventory swap) more shot(s).
I'm not a fan of these glass cannon pistol builds. After you feel you have enough dps (maybe 4-6 traits depending on difficulty and personal preference), grab some survivability traits. I like to go badass, then ironman.
As others have mentioned, killing the shambler is a huge pain on AoMr. You don't have to do it.
For demons: running player is slightly faster than demons (even with green armor). When demons get too close, run away. When running away, try to get a wall between you and the demon (diagonally doesn't work). Then the demon's stupid AI won't be able to figure out how to get around the wall. Wait 20-30 turns for it to get bored of chasing you and wander away. You can even do this using the pillars on Hell's Arena, though you may have to run around for a while.
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I consider myself an AoMr specialist, but as I prefer to muck around in memory and experiment with stuff over actually trying to play properly...
*ahem* Anyhow, regardless of whether you use one gun or two, what you need to keep in mind is that you cannot stay in one spot for too long. You don't have the knockback from Shotguns to keep Demons at bay, and you quite frankly won't have the firepower to take out the Shambler nine times out of ten. Gun Kata, as much as I dislike dualgunning, does have the advantage of a built-in Hellrunner/Dodgemaster, so use that to your advantage. Unless it's a former or a Cacodemon that you've can dash in and not get hit against, in which case by all means run up and shoot him in the face.
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Based on your videos, it sounds like you're asking for advice about UV AoMr (or Marksman Gold), which is a very different animal from the Marksman Silver. Since I have the liberty to see your play in action, allow me to comment on your actions:
- You play out in the open way too much. Now this isn't AS much of a problem if you're aiming for MGK, but before then you cannot allow yourself to stay unshielded by walls. Your main assumption when dealing with enemies that can't be taken down quickly is that you get their attention, then corner-shoot the crap out of them. In Hell's Arena, an ideal setup is one that has a pillar near the middle but off to the left or right, giving you a great position to snipe off Cacos/HKs/Barons as they approach. (The Demons and Lost Souls shouldn't be an issue if you have at least SoG(2) and a pistol in the prepped slot.) Overall, try to find a place that allows you to corner-shoot and use it as a base of operations from which you lure enemies and take them out.
- In Hell's Arena: your basic idea is good, but consider the fact that everything besides the Demons and Lost Souls still bunch up near the middle. For the first two waves, I usually find a safe spot near the edge, run-wait a few times (at 20s per run), then deal with the Cacos knowing where they are. It should be noted that Barons seek out ammo, so the third wave can be more hectic (as their AI will be unpredictable due to the scattered ammo).
- In Chained Court (with AM): The first half is basically what I do. It's risky because of all the captains, but positioning yourself correctly, as well as avoiding to enter too deeply into the left side of the map, can make the damage bearable. Aiming for the AM staff immediately after to wipe the rest is my plan as well. However, once these enemies are taken care of, you should make your way back to the spawn point, mostly avoiding to fire at Barons along the way. Inevitably your berserk will run out (I only take 2/3s of the supply, but this is based on a very precise timetable and I wouldn't recommend it unless you're strapped for medpacks) and when it does you're very vulnerable to the Baron's attacks. It's best to kill them with an easy retreat in mind, then revert to a more cautious strategy once the red disappears.
- In Hellgate: I'm surprised how well it worked for you to kill the first wave while in the center like that: personally I try to take cover off to the sides, as limited as it is there. Much of the difficulty can come from getting the Viles to come out, but once they do it's pretty simple. Your plan for the Bruisers was good but lacked proper execution. You want them to reach the bottleneck, at which point you can snipe them fairly safely, but if you're in a position where they can attack back, retreat until they're out of your vision, then attack where you know they will be. For the second Bruiser, simply retreat to the first room, spam bullets to the right (since his AI forces him to move directly toward you) and, if he's not dead by the time he's in your vision, move up/down a tile and corner-shoot the rest: you'll take a lot less damage that way.
Definitely pick SoG -> SoG -> SoG/DG -> DG/SoG as your first four traits. I tend to take EE as the fifth, but ONLY after getting those (or possibly fourth if I'm doing a single-pistol build for who knows why). Both DG and SoG(3) are vital early on, and you're not often shooting at the very peak of your range when it's not corner-shooting. Personally I take SoG(3) before DG: since tehtmi gave his reasons for DG before SoG(3), I'll explain mine as well:
1. The difference in DPS isn't noticeable, true, but the firing speed is. Whereas DG with SoG(2) will take 0.72 seconds, SoG(3) with a single gun is only 0.40s. In addition to a little bit more damage per shot, you're very nearly getting the same firing time, AND you can decide to move in between those shots. With a 0.40s firing time you will very often fire a shot without the enemy sending their reply, and so hit-and-run is a greater possibility.
2. You can still reload every twelve shots firing a single pistol as long as you have a pistol in the prepped slot to swap. This takes 0.8s, less than reloading and faster than any enemy that would take more than six shots at that point in the game. Since you should mostly avoid open-space battles before MGK (and hence before DG) spending this time rarely becomes risky.
Of course, having BOTH is just too awesome not to have by clvl4. If you're having difficulty hitting opponents early-game, make sure they're within six tiles instead of being at the very edge of your vision, which will improve your odds rather well.
After those traits, you have a few options.
- Some people will go straight for MGK, although this sacrifices offensive power for a boost in movespeed, autoreload (which, if you have speedloaders, isn't THAT great) and free shots when you dodge. The last bit is only significant against enemies that have dodgeable attacks, and the major enemies for which this matters are HKs, Cacos, and Barons. Of course, after clvl9 you'll have the opportunity to aim for other traits like Iro or Fin -> WK, but I personally believe that you want to build your pistol's strength before you reach the particularly nasty scenarios.
- Others will aim for Finesse and evolve into WK, readying themselves for super-modded pistols. This has the flexibility of eventually becoming MGK if you want, and it will make the best use out of finding any mods early on. Unfortunately, this also relies somewhat on getting the mods you actually want, as well as if you want anything other than speedloader pistols. My last UV AoMr win took this route and held out for WK(2) in order to create power-modded speedloaders, which ended up being powerful enough to plow through most of the rest of the game.
- A third pistol route is to go directly for power, getting SoB(3) and Fin(2) in some combination. I used to like this build a lot, since you'll reach the point of knocking back enemies quite reliably without having to mod your weapons at all. However, the knockback also can cause ammo to be wasted (as a result of a difference between bullet path and enemy knockback direction) leading to ammo issues, and so this build is best for single-pistol games, which don't often appear in a UV run. (Naturally you can just remove the prepped pistol if you're having ammo issues, but a UV player should plan for every trait to count as much as possible.) MGK is blocked, but HR(2) -> DM is not, so you can still get that desirable dodge against the Cyberdemon if XP allows.
I don't think MGK is really good enough to block SoB entirely, so I usually take Fin -> Fin and then decide between WK and SoB, filling in with Iro and eventually HR/DM over time. Some people like to take TaN but, given that my pistol strategies tend to revolve around conservative player, I find protection to be disregarded enough that I would prefer no armor to red most of the time.
If you're wondering how to go about killing the shambler, start the fight by pulling the lever and immediately shooting to your left: it's a straight path to the shambler itself and so you'll deal some decent damage before it has the opportunity to teleport. Keep yourself along that middle row, preferably near doorways, shoot and corner-shoot when it appears, and hide by entering the room toward the shambler once it's in melee range. It takes a LOT of kills but will go down in due time.
Some general tips to keep in mind (although I bet most if not all are things you know):
- Given the firing speed of pistols, you can often get in "free shots" against enemies. Use this to properly lure an otherwise-pesky monster toward you, where it can easily be picked off.
- When dualgunning, always reload your pistols one at a time. This means reload [r] followed by dualreload [R]. This is the safest way to go about reloading, since there's no time loss and it gives you the opportunity to take a look at the situation and whether or not you have the time to reload again.
- The alternate fire is basically used to pick off formers that might be carrying med-packs early on and nothing else. +3 accuracy for double firing time is usually not worth the trade-off, and once you have EE(1) accuracy should not become an issue.
- Since they are fairly accurate at a distance, using pistols to radar-shoot for enemies in places like Arach caves or mazes can easily save you from taking damage.
Hopefully that should clear up a lot of confusion regarding strategy and tactics for the Marksman Gold. It looks like you've already pulled a great effort out of what you're already doing right, so a few tweaks here and there produce the victory you're looking for.
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Actually the videos are from me ;-) . Did it as a test for recording and ended up very surprised to not die earlier... Basically the whole run was unplanned... But good tips.
I won AoMr UV after that.
Wish they were more vids of (good or at least decent players) out there. There is loads of tricks to learn from a DoomRl vid.
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Actually the videos are from me ;-) . Did it as a test for recording and ended up very surprised to not die earlier... Basically the whole run was unplanned... But good tips.
I won AoMr UV after that.
Wish they were more vids of (good or at least decent players) out there. There is loads of tricks to learn from a DoomRl vid.
Well derp to me, that throws away a lot of my analysis for him in particular. Really late for me, if there's anything more basic the original poster wants me to go over (since I don't really talk about the fundamentals) I'll respond tomorrow.
EDIT: I blame the fact that we all have the same avatar.
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O.O
But that is probably the most updated analysis for AoMr in a while! Even if it doesn't analyse OP's problem, it should give enough ideas on how OP can play AoMr in a more effective manner.
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Hot dang, this was more than I ever expected! I actually did plan to ask a few more questions but they're already answered (and then some). Y'all are great; now it's time to kill some demons.
And Game Hunter, that is some scarily thorough analysis of AoMr. I hope someone copies that down for prosperity.
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And Game Hunter, that is some scarily thorough analysis of AoMr. I hope someone copies that down for prosperity.
Actually I'm kind of worried it's too long, not to mention that I really didn't talk about the basics there. Builds aside, most of the tips and tricks already assume you have a good handling on how non-shotgun weapons work in a tactical environment. Thomas's guide likely does a good job at explaining this, but I can continue to give advice if you feel what you've learned so far reading this, his guide, and my own (regarding Marksman stuff at least) is inadequate.
This isn't necessarily the place to begin talking about OTHER stuff, either, but I wouldn't mind doing similar write-ups for problematic special levels, builds, or challenges. Anything but City of Skulls, because I haven't actually seen the new City of Skulls (although it can't be THAT bad if you've prepared yourself the same way you used to).
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New City of Skulls isn't much different from old City of Skulls. The old useful strategies and items in general still apply.
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It is different, because in the previous version I was able to crack all scull shelters with a plasma rifle and kill lost souls one by one. With the new ending, I doubt that I can handle the boss with only plasma rifle.
(as a result of a difference between bullet path and enemy knockback direction)
Don't you think it's a bug? The bullets should knock back targets in the direction of their path.
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(as a result of a difference between bullet path and enemy knockback direction)
Don't you think it's a bug? The bullets should knock back targets in the direction of their path.
Even if it is a bug, the way it works now is what players should expect and rely on when they prepare strategies. If it is fixed or changed in another version, then it can be addressed at that time. It's the same reason I refer to enemy grouping, even though that is likely going to be changed with the modification of enemy AI next version.
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It is different, because in the previous version I was able to crack all scull shelters with a plasma rifle and kill lost souls one by one. With the new ending, I doubt that I can handle the boss with only plasma rifle.
And? You're not 'supposed' to crack the skull shelters, if you play by Hell's rules and/or are a real man... and why wouldn't a plasma rifle cut it against the boss? Not in the habit of keeping a shotgun on switch?
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Judging by the comments Shambler is meant to be difficult on AoMR, but I really didn't have trouble with it the last game I managed to survive long enough to reach him on it. The thing that always gives me trouble is the bruiser brothers. By the time I've reached them I attack so fast it's hard to pace my dodging and there's no cover. I like AoMr because it's difficult to get set up but once you get going you deal ludicrous damage. All the challenge games I've played I tend to do better for some reason or another. I think my main downfall in my best AoMr game was making a high power pistol, since it meant I had to constantly reload if I couldn't pull off a kill in time for Gun Kata to do it for me.
Not sure on how to capture video, either. A bit off-topic, but could someone help me out with an unrelated problem? I can't get DoomRL to go fullscreen. It always starts in a different program from Aliens RL and Diablo RL, and when I hit alt+enter I get an error message saying "This system does not support fullscreen."
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A bit off-topic, but could someone help me out with an unrelated problem? I can't get DoomRL to go fullscreen. It always starts in a different program from Aliens RL and Diablo RL, and when I hit alt+enter I get an error message saying "This system does not support fullscreen."
If you are using Windows Vista/7, you are out of luck -- there's no way to run it full screen natively.
However, there are other console emulator tools out there that can help, for example noteye (http://www.roguetemple.com/z/noteye.php) or cons2tcod (http://www.roguetemple.com/z/cons2tcod.php), both by the same author.
And yes, this is very off topic and has been asked (and answered!) before. Please look through the other threads first next time.
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The thing that always gives me trouble is the bruiser brothers. By the time I've reached them I attack so fast it's hard to pace my dodging and there's no cover.
There is cover, just retreat after you open their wall and take cover behind the middle wall.