Chaosforge Forum

DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: ultimate26 on February 09, 2013, 21:53

Title: Shotgun thread
Post by: ultimate26 on February 09, 2013, 21:53
Someone help me out with which shotgun to have over others?

Assuming we have this build: REL-SOB-REL-SOB

Elephant gun
Double shotgun
Tactical shotgun

Which one would you suggest to keep for the said build?

Appreciations

2nd question is which shotgun is best for shottyman build? with or without army of the dead
Title: Re: Shotgun thread
Post by: ParaSait on February 09, 2013, 22:10
I'd discard the elephant gun if you have a tac.
Title: Re: Shotgun thread
Post by: Deathwind on February 09, 2013, 23:00
if this is a shotgun challenge I'd say keep all of them for now.

The elephant gun is very good with shottyman but is crap in all other cases, even a shell box isn't quite enough here. The second mod is better spent on armor, if you must drop one drop this
The double shotgun has a WIDE burst and tends to really knock targets back but it's useable range ends within your vision and armor really hurts this gun, it also needs shottyman or a shell box to have a reasonable rate of fire. Don't drop it unless you find a super shotgun but it's not a primary gun due to ammo use.
The tactical shotgun is your primary gun, great rate of fire/reload and it effective range extends beyond your field of view, the only drawbacks are it's somewhat narrow burst and it's a bit lacking when it comes to heavily armored targets.

Army of the dead makes all shotguns but the plasma shotgun better but the biggest effect is on the double shotgun (besides the rare Jackhammer).
Title: Re: Shotgun thread
Post by: skarczew on February 10, 2013, 15:08
I would keep them all.

Quote
Assuming we have this build: REL-SOB-REL-SOB
Better to go 2 * Rel first. SoB does not affect shottie damage that much.

Elephant is best shell : damage ratio; got nice range and spread;
Quote
The elephant gun is very good with shottyman but is crap in all other cases (...)
I disagree.

Quote
The double shotgun has a WIDE burst and tends to really knock targets back but it's useable range ends within your vision (...)
It sucks after half vision already, better to use Elephant at this point.
Title: Re: Shotgun thread
Post by: Tormuse on February 10, 2013, 22:10
The Tactical Shotgun is a good workhorse weapon that I'll use most of the time.  Double Shotguns and Elephant Guns are more situational weapons.  If it's a Shotgun challenge, I'll keep them around, but otherwise, the damage drop-off is too great at medium to long range, so they're most useful at point-blank range, and if I'm that close, I'd rather use a Chainsaw.  :)  The focused Shotgun assembly may be a different story, but to be honest, I haven't experimented with it that much.  Usually, I just throw Double Shotguns away.

Quote from: skarczew on February 10, 2013, 15:08
Better to go 2 * Rel first. SoB does not affect shottie damage that much.

I've seen people say this before, and I heartily disagree!  The damage increase is very significant to Shotguns.  I find SoB to be a huge help against tougher enemies, since I can kill them a bit faster, (which gives them less chance to hurt me) save shells, and the increased chance of knock-back means they stay out of arms' length which is good for when I'm, say, corner-shooting a Baron and I don't want him to get too close.
Title: Re: Shotgun thread
Post by: skarczew on February 11, 2013, 01:11
Quote from: Tormuse on February 10, 2013, 22:10
I find SoB to be a huge help against tougher enemies, since I can kill them a bit faster, (which gives them less chance to hurt me) save shells, and the increased chance of knock-back means they stay out of arms' length which is good for when I'm, say, corner-shooting a Baron and I don't want him to get too close.
:)
Well, Rel * 2 was doing the same work for me (corner shotting & pushing a Baron back).
Title: Re: Shotgun thread
Post by: Buzzard on February 11, 2013, 09:35
A combo of Tactical Shotgun/Elephant Shotgun is the best for a AotD build imo. Elephant shotgun for corner-shooting (since you probably won't find a Super Shotgun), tactical for most other things.
Title: Re: Shotgun thread
Post by: ultimate26 on February 12, 2013, 10:29
how about assembly shotguns vs unique shotties?

Assault shotgun any better than tac shotty?

Title: Re: Shotgun thread
Post by: tylor on February 12, 2013, 10:34
Assault shotgun allows 5 mods (as it is exotic), so it's definitely better. I think only unique is Jackhammer, which has huge DPS, but eats through ammo too fast.
Title: Re: Shotgun thread
Post by: ZicherCZ on February 12, 2013, 12:10
Well ... First, the availability: Tac shotty >> Assault shotty most of the time. I have yet play a game when I would not find the resources needed for TacSh, while AsSh is not nearly as common. You have a fairly good chance to have the resources ready before Phobos Anomaly, are this chance grows to near certainty just two levels later, after Hell's Armoury.
Secondly, TacSh slightly beats AsSh in terms of damage (8d3 - 7d3).

AsSh has the advantage of being moddable, but to what extent? A mod is outright worthless, B mod increases the clip by a single shot. So only P and T mods make any sense to use. To double this up, if you are going for MAD, you are stuck with a single mod no matter what (MAD disallows Whizkid). All in all, I can imagine a P3T2 or similar AsSh in the hands of a WK2 player - but otherwise, the TacSh availability still beats AsSh almost anytime.

Note that you _start_ with an AsSh when playing Angel of Overconfidence. Be certain to make good use of it.
Title: Re: Shotgun thread
Post by: tylor on February 12, 2013, 12:56
Technically, Assault shotgun is guarantied in Mortuary. But it is probably a little too late.
Title: Re: Shotgun thread
Post by: ultimate26 on February 19, 2013, 13:43
Will they ever fix fire-angel?

And i was browsing through the wiki and noticed that fire-angel is the technicians shotgun mastery which i dont understand because shotguns dont have explosive damage...

Can we have a proper shotgun mastery trait for technicians? Something along the lines of "Technical reload" would be nice, Maybe "Pump and reload can be done in one single instant action"
Title: Re: Shotgun thread
Post by: Evilpotatoe on February 19, 2013, 14:42
I suggest MAD as the technicians mastery.

Btw, this might be a completely stupid idea, especially since I think I played MAD only once, on a 23 minutes run. But my main reason is that I don't understand why MAD denies WK. I'm pretty sure this is a collateral damage, and the finess block was just here to block... finess (and maybe juggler, which seems to be an insane skill).
This is also why I never use this mastery.

If it becomes techies's shotty mastery, it will enable focused double shotty and modded assemblies for MAD (plus, nano-crapnel, very useful when you already pierce armors :p)
The only remaning questions would be : what stat to replace Marine's shoty mastery & where to put fireAngel.

I got an idea for fireangel, but it involves adding a Demolition class, which would be quite off topic.

So, to stay in topic... what do you think of moving MAD to the techies ?
Title: Re: Shotgun thread
Post by: Thexare on February 19, 2013, 20:27
Quote from: ultimate26 on February 19, 2013, 13:43
Will they ever fix fire-angel?
Fixed in the betas.

Quote
And i was browsing through the wiki and noticed that fire-angel is the technicians shotgun mastery which i dont understand because shotguns dont have explosive damage...
While true, shotguns are prone to barrel-popping. There's another little trait change that'll make Fireangel more interesting, though - and no, it's not an explosive shotgun. It should be! But it isn't.
Title: Re: Shotgun thread
Post by: Rajhin on February 20, 2013, 02:08
Quote from: Evilpotatoe on February 19, 2013, 14:42
I suggest MAD as the technicians mastery.
Btw, this might be a completely stupid idea, especially since I think I played MAD only once, on a 23 minutes run. But my main reason is that I don't understand why MAD denies WK. I'm pretty sure this is a collateral damage, and the finess block was just here to block... finess (and maybe juggler, which seems to be an insane skill).
This is also why I never use this mastery.
So, to stay in topic... what do you think of moving MAD to the techies ?
I think that MAD is about simple, blunt, slow but very powerful doomguy, not about some wimpy finesse or tricks. That is why it sucks on UV/N! where you cannot just tank demons and shoot them to death. But on lower difficuties its pretty good.
Also looking on tech's other mastertraits I suppose that shotgun mastery should be really different from normal shotgun priorities. Maybe even something without Shottyman.
Title: Re: Shotgun thread
Post by: tylor on February 20, 2013, 03:52
I think Fireangel is quite fitting for Marine. Laughing at mancubi rockets and kicking barrels just for fun is his thing. Oh, and rocketjumps!
Title: Re: Shotgun thread
Post by: Buzzard on February 20, 2013, 07:06
I still think Army of the Dead should give you some sort of bonus with the chainsaw, but I'm only saying that because of it's name.
Title: Re: Shotgun thread
Post by: tylor on February 20, 2013, 12:28
May be something with chainsaws AND shotguns?
Army of the Dead. Prerequisites: Berserk, Juggler. You got cursed chainsaw equipped. If you kill enemy with shotgun, next melee attack takes no time. If you kill enemy with melee, next attack with shotgun take no time.
Title: Re: Shotgun thread
Post by: Tormuse on February 20, 2013, 12:37
I think MAD is more powerful than some people here are giving it credit for;  the fact that it's the only Shotgun mastery that doesn't block SoB is significant.  Armour-piercing combined with a few levels of SoB is devastating to even the most powerful monsters in the game.
Title: Re: Shotgun thread
Post by: Buzzard on February 21, 2013, 08:23
Quote from: Tormuse on February 20, 2013, 12:37
I think MAD is more powerful than some people here are giving it credit for;  the fact that it's the only Shotgun mastery that doesn't block SoB is significant.  Armour-piercing combined with a few levels of SoB is devastating to even the most powerful monsters in the game.
Oh yeah, absolutely. I was just suggesting what I said for flavor.
Quote from: tylor on February 20, 2013, 12:28
May be something with chainsaws AND shotguns?
Army of the Dead. Prerequisites: Berserk, Juggler. You got cursed chainsaw equipped. If you kill enemy with shotgun, next melee attack takes no time. If you kill enemy with melee, next attack with shotgun take no time.
I like this, although I'd change the prerequisites.
Title: Re: Shotgun thread
Post by: AlterAsc on February 22, 2013, 03:08
MAD definitely does not suck on UV/N!. Quite the contrary - it's the most sensible choice when going for shotgunnery diamond if you're not going to place your survival in hands of RNG spawning you sergeants so you can farm them for shells.
Title: Re: Shotgun thread
Post by: Buzzard on February 22, 2013, 07:37
MAD is probably the best shotgun build, at least on UV/N!.

However, as much as I love MAD, I have to say, the most fun build is Shottyhead. It's not some ultimate end-all be-all, but it gives you both offensive and defensive tools, and it's fun running around switching between the shotgun and rocket launcher.