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DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: LuckyDee on April 30, 2012, 12:08

Title: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: LuckyDee on April 30, 2012, 12:08
Having played a fair share of HNTR games, I've decided to give HMP a try. First impressions are underwhelming, but especially without INT I keep on running into the same problem I always do: I get hit. A lot.

I got the basic principles of doding and taking cover down. I know how to gift-drop and I know how to interpret the monster sounds I'm hearing. Most hits that are scored against me are when I step into some monsters vision, thereby practically painting them a bullseye right above my nose. How in the seven hells do you do an N! run without getting hit a single time? How do you not step into monsters' vision?

I have the feeling that grasping this concept is all that stands between me and dominating this game. That and not rushing into things, thinking before you act, not pressing the wrong key etc.

I mean it's not like there's only 1 player (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php?action=profile;u=5597) that's managed to master this, right?
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: Creepy on April 30, 2012, 12:51
Be much faster than the monster. If you're pulling less than .5 seconds for an action, any monster that takes a second to act will give you a second turn to move before they can react.

At least that's the theory as far as I know it, I don't do it well myself; I'm more interested in surviving the hits that land, because I know I'm not good enough to dodge everything. I lack the mad skillz for it. =P
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: 2DeviationsOut on April 30, 2012, 12:53
Radarshooting is incredibly important. It's also about being able to predict where the AI will put the enemies. I also make sure to clear the rooms before I go into one by firing at anywhere I can't see. Also, in my opinion, the most important thing that you can do to not get hit is to take a lot of turns. If you look at my mortems, I take a TON of turns, even if I take a short amount of time. It's really important to be able to run in place to wait for enemies to possibly pop up. I also use a tactic that I call the "Rolling Retreat" where I back off the second I see an enemy so that I can break LOS with them, and then fire at where they will most likely be. This works on a lot of enemies.
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: LuckyDee on April 30, 2012, 13:16
Quote from: Creepy on April 30, 2012, 12:51
Be much faster than the monster. If you're pulling less than .5 seconds for an action, any monster that takes a second to act will give you a second turn to move before they can react.

Sounds like a nice theory, but wouldn't this only work every other turn? I usually favor scout builds, which already gives me an edge, but not every build can include HR, let alone start with it.

Quote from: 2DeviationsOut on April 30, 2012, 12:53
Radarshooting is incredibly important. It's also about being able to predict where the AI will put the enemies. I also make sure to clear the rooms before I go into one by firing at anywhere I can't see. Also, in my opinion, the most important thing that you can do to not get hit is to take a lot of turns. If you look at my mortems, I take a TON of turns, even if I take a short amount of time. It's really important to be able to run in place to wait for enemies to possibly pop up. I also use a tactic that I call the "Rolling Retreat" where I back off the second I see an enemy so that I can break LOS with them, and then fire at where they will most likely be. This works on a lot of enemies.

Radarshooting is another thing that puzzles me; with shotguns this works perfectly of course, but with any other weapon this becomes quite a pain, especially since your hit chances decrease when firing out of vision. I do try to take my time (/turns), but I'm generally forced to take breaks from the game, thus getting me out of the  'zone', so to speak. I make most mistakes the moment I return to a previously saved game. I've also developed some sort of 'rolling retreat' for myself, though I could do with some more experience on the AI, I guess.

I think I'm gonna try and earn the Untouchable Cross next, on ITYTD if need be, first with a MCe and then with something like MAc. I tried AoPc and quit halfway through dlev3 ;(
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: Kg on April 30, 2012, 15:53
Rolling retreat.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's a very nice idea. Also, using 'running in place' tactic is very good, but on N! it's not so desired, I assume (due to respawn). It can be painful to scout large room with something other than shotgun. But if you use shotgun, you really can't tell exact position of monsters - only that they're there somewhere...
Or, I don't know, scouting with pistol to conserve ammo?
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: LuckyDee on May 01, 2012, 13:36
So far, except for giving up on the Untouchable stuff and trying MVm on AoLT(HNTR) - again -, there have been some successes to report. This time I lasted well into Hell's Arena (at depth 3) without getting hit: I was running out of ammo and thus limiting my radarshooting, stepping out of cover in full view of a caco. I was fortunate enough to find a duelist armor on dlev4 (+15% movement) and made tac boots after the CC, which really helps with both the Rolling Retreat and being a MVm. The Anomaly would have been a pain in the ass (no phase to be found on Phobos) if not for a lucky Zerk pack a couple of steps from the stairs, and the only blow I took in the Armory was because I decided to take on the Shambler with my (b-modded) chainsaw. As long as I'm still using the shotgun and do my scouting, I'm not taking that many hits.

The reason I gave up on the Untouchables: I gave it 3 tries, and every dlev2 put me in this situation [WARNING: I don't play the console version, so I don't know if this is entirely correct]:

Turn 1:
..
...
....
....
###/###
....@..
#######
Turn 2:
......
........
.....h..
.......
###@###
.......
#######
And there goes about 25% of my Untouchable Cross. No audible clues, no room to maneuver, just a face full of shrapnel. I think patience would simply be the key, since it can't take too many turns for sarge to either show his face or whisper hoarse seductions in my ear. It's easy to forget patience though.
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: Creaphis on May 01, 2012, 15:49
I don't have any patience whatsoever so I just accept that I'll sometimes get a face full of shrapnel as a matter of course. I've started "creeping" around corners, though. In your visual example, instead of going NW go west one turn and then north. This way you don't put yourself within LOS of so much unexplored territory in a single turn and you have a better chance of being able to corner shoot an enemy when you first see it. It's not fool-proof, obviously, but seems to help somehow.
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: Creepy on May 01, 2012, 16:03
2dev mentioned wait-running; that's something I've started using on occasion and it's been pretty helpful. You hit run (,) and pick the wait command as your direction (.) and the game will wait for 200 ticks/20 seconds. If something show it's ugly face, the game interrupts the 'run' and you get the first shot at them. Turnabout ambush!
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: AlterAsc on May 01, 2012, 16:18
Quote
you get the first shot at them
...unless they have more than 100% speed.In that case they may get the first shot.It's quite rare, but can happen.
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: Creepy on May 01, 2012, 16:27
Imps have 105%, which makes it very rare; early game nothing else goes that fast unless they're dedicated melee. Late-game does have quite a few critters that go fast enough to get the first shot on occasion though, you're right on that.

It does fix the whole early game problem of "assholes with shotguns" pretty tidily though.
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: Kg on May 01, 2012, 16:34
Also, I'd recommend binding run command to numpad0. So when you play on numpad, you have wait command on 5, and run on 0. Then you can spam 0->5 fairly quick and get free shots (or even better, combine it with giftdropping).
Very good tactic, unless you're doing AoRa, or N!. Or if supercharged without Badass ;)
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: raekuul on May 01, 2012, 20:07
As far as the doors thing... try closing the door, then opening it again from a better vantage point. I don't think monsters will shoot you on door-open (can't remember, as I usually just blow doors apart anyway)
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: LuckyDee on May 01, 2012, 22:53
Quote from: Creaphis on May 01, 2012, 15:49
In your visual example, instead of going NW go west one turn and then north. This way you don't put yourself within LOS of so much unexplored territory in a single turn and you have a better chance of being able to corner shoot an enemy when you first see it.

Thanks, but in these cases the net result would most likely have been the same, I think I'd also step into LOS by going W, though I don't know if my drawings reflect this. The problem is not being able to step back from the door, both to minimize vision and to create a better angle from which to fire.

Quote from: Creepy on May 01, 2012, 16:03
You hit run (,) and pick the wait command as your direction (.)

Ah, I don't think I fully understood what TwoDev meant; I'll give this a try, thanks.

Quote from: Kg on May 01, 2012, 16:34
Also, I'd recommend binding run command to numpad0. So when you play on numpad, you have wait command on 5, and run on 0.

I've seen more people mention this, but I fail to understand the point. Is there something like a 'Fastest Waiter' bonus? What's wrong with the ./, keys?

Quote from: raekuul on May 01, 2012, 20:07
I don't think monsters will shoot you on door-open

They do if you don't give them the password. I've tried, and it's not 'Ken sent me' by the way.
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: AlterAsc on May 01, 2012, 22:57
Quote
What's wrong with the ./, keys?
They are far from the rest of most of the buttons, the usual i think is: right-hand on numpad, left hand somewhere near e,f,r.
I binded run comman to w as it was in adom.
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: LuckyDee on May 01, 2012, 23:41
I would have if this were a real-time game. I don't play that fast anyhow, so the exact location of the keys makes little difference to me.
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: Klear on May 02, 2012, 03:09
Re: the diagram of you getting a faceful of shrapnel - I'd close the door, place a gift behind it and then opened it from a side. Then just wait a couple of times - the former humans should take the bait soon.
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: LuckyDee on May 02, 2012, 03:44
Like I said, I had no reason to expect anything behind the door. Though I do admit that the run/wait combined with giftdrops sounds like a very suitable tactic in circumstances like this.
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: Klear on May 02, 2012, 04:03
Quote from: LuckyDee on May 02, 2012, 03:44
Like I said, I had no reason to expect anything behind the door.

The fact that the level name is in red and not blue is a reason to expect there is someone behind every door =)
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: LuckyDee on May 02, 2012, 04:06
Yeah, you've kinda got me there :S
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: Creaphis on May 02, 2012, 07:55
I think I'm too used to playing roguelikes with nutrition and hunger. Waiting in place for so long just feels wrong to me.
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: Creepy on May 02, 2012, 11:20
Gotta get used to the lack of time limit. Doomguy can wait. Until the stars burn out, if you have a mind for it.
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: Ander Hammer on May 03, 2012, 03:14
Welp, time to add nutrition.

Angel of Nethack!

You feel hungry.
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: ih8regin on May 03, 2012, 05:12
do you mind reposting this in horrible ideas or challenge requests? :D Also, the Doomguy could saturate on blasting blood out of opponents, thus urging the player to actively find those pesky zombies or imps that are left on a level. And probably not allowing anything else but a 100% kill rate to win? :)
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: thelaptop on May 04, 2012, 11:56
Quote from: Ander Hammer on May 03, 2012, 03:14
Welp, time to add nutrition.

Angel of Nethack!

You feel hungry.
Shouldn't "feeling hungry" be more in line with being human as in AoHu?

=)
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: Tormuse on May 04, 2012, 14:42
Sounds like a great idea for a mod!  You can title it:  "Rogue, the Doomlike"  :D
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: skarczew on May 04, 2012, 15:41
Quote from: Ander Hammer on May 03, 2012, 03:14
Welp, time to add nutrition.

Angel of Nethack!

You feel hungry.
There is worse thing in DoomRL already.

AoRA
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: Tormuse on May 05, 2012, 06:20
Ooh!  I just had a thought...  If we're making it like Nethack, you should be able to eat the corpses!  (would make Nightmare easier)  and they could grant resistances when you eat them!  Imps would give you fire resistance, Barons would give you acid resistance, etc...  Eating Former Humans would make you sick (like eating Zombies in Nethack)  hmm...  come to think of it, for balance purposes, eating any enemy should probably damage you since gaining resistances would otherwise be too powerful.  Of course, this is all way off the thread topic, but I'll give this some thought...
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: LuckyDee on May 05, 2012, 06:28
Quote from: Tormuse on May 05, 2012, 06:20
Of course, this is all way off the thread topic, but I'll give this some thought...

Hey, I don't mind, I actually like it when people get triggered by each other and get these discussions going :)

If I want more tips on survival, I simply steer the course of this thread back, or start a new one, so make yourselves at home.
Title: Re: The Underappreciated Art of Not Getting Hit
Post by: Tormuse on May 05, 2012, 06:33
Okay.  :)

I've actually been giving a lot of thought to learning how to mod lately and "Angel of Nethack" could be a really interesting project.  I don't know how easy it would be to implement a new "eat" command, but it's a fun idea to play around with.