Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Requests For Features => Topic started by: Ander Hammer on March 20, 2012, 06:01
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You usually get one for free from Hell's Arena. They show up relatively early. They're used for breaking walls, and occasionally the corpses near the walls, and occasionally the Arena Master.
You do the Wall right, you dump the Rocket Launcher. You get your master trait, half the time you dump the Rocket Launcher. Even its assemblies, useful as they are, feel the sting of not under-use, but under-utilization.
Why? Because they don't behave how rocket launchers should when in the hands of a trained marine.
Here's a list of possible tweaks! Not all of them necessarily have to go in, or are necessarily good ideas, or will necessarily not irreparably break the game, but they're things to think about.
- If an enemy or black space is targeted, it behaves as normal.
- If a (visible) floor is targeted, roll to hit the tile in the crosshairs.
Failure hits an adjacent square. Super-failure can perhaps take it further than adjacent.
Maybe give it rocket-jumping stats, since it's not a direct hit: half damage, maybe lots of knockback.
- Lower base accuracy.
Someone without a keen eye can hardly be expected to hit the right square with such a heavy weapon.
- Halve damage dealt to self from splash all the time, like from rocket jumping.
Allows better use in melee, but not nearly as good as mFA.
- Reduce damage dealt to (certain?) items on the ground. Flesh melts more easily than steel.
The reason rocket launchers are never primary weapons is partly because of this.
- Revenant's Launcher: becomes essentially an s-modded Rocket Launcher with big dice and a tiny blast radius.
Alternatively, make it a weaker exotic with an added low drop rate from (non-rezzed) Revenants? That'd be sorta cool.
- Missile Launcher: almost always hits a targeted monster, but can't lock-on to walls or floors.
Possibly explodes if it travels too far (misses), at least clipping the target with the blast?
- Start brainstorming master traits that do well with rocketeer builds. Fireangel for the melee rocketeer! Pyromaniac, whose distance damage drop-off is improved! Rocket Whore, who can carry 3x the rockets! Or cram 3x the rockets into their launchers, or shoot three rockets for each trigger pull, or reload their launchers in a third of the time, or make them never miss or whatever. Or the dreaded mMB: Master trait Michael Bay, whose rockets get BFG-like splash (and whose BFG splashes are all absolutely ludicrous).
I was thinking about how useful rocket jumping is, and how silly it is that you can't utilize the same basic idea, except not aiming directly at your feet.
I was also thinking about Hell and its seventeen million rockets (and Revenant's Launchers), all of which will get left behind by my marines with bottomless plasma rifles.
I was also thinking about how awesome rocket launchers are, for serious you guys, they're explosions you shoot like from a gun.
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It is weird that rocket launchers get left behind more often than pistols in the late game. They're rocket launchers! I like the idea of extending the rocket jump alt fire to be able to hit any visible square. "Rocketeer" master traits would be awesome. Also, I'm not sure that item destruction, while "realistic," really contributes much to gameplay. If exotics and sphere powerups at least were immune to splash damage then I think most players would feel more comfortable chucking rockets around. Also, it doesn't make sense that red armours that can take tons of abuse on your body will get shredded by one explosion on the ground.
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I agree. RLs are cool, and were one of the best parts of deathmatching. I mean, can anybody who has DMed seriously in any of the Quake games not think that RLs are integral to the experience? Even in Doom, RLs were really, really good. It is rather a shame to see them not used much for fear of blowing good stuff up, or simply because no master trait supports them. Ander Hammer's suggestions are really quite good. I like the ability to target a blank tile. It would make N! a lot easier, but splash damage is essential to getting that RL feel. How many times have you played Quake and ended up bouncing some poor derp around with rockets at his feet? That's all due to splash damage. Maybe it's not too Doomish (after all Doom was 2D), but surely we can explore this direction a little more. I like not making it as accurate too. It gives it a different feeling to the other weapons - makes it sort of more splashy, if you know what I mean.
Changes to exotics - really, now, I want to address the issue of the Missile Launcher. I don't think it should be the reward for the wall. It does seem kind of overkill to 'upgrade' the RL within the first episode. Maybe, just put 3 bulk mods there, and give the player the choice of upgrading the RL to its assembled brother? Or something like that?
I like the idea of making rocket master traits, or master traits that reference rockets. 3 rockets per shot should be pretty OP, but think about the mess... I had sudden flashbacks of running around in UT while charging rockets, and then seeing some poor sod just when the sixth rocket was charged - oh good times.
And RLs are cool. How can they not be? I often lug the one from Hells Arena around just so I can use it at the Phobos Anomaly to shoot the Bruiser bros - they go down really quickly, and never really get a chance to get into sight. I love shooting rockets and hearing that 't-whoop' sound from Doom. It never gets old.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-T4S_7Ti7EFw/TjqvI7PvSXI/AAAAAAAABHY/nnJ2oeyWL_g/s400/Commando-Matrix-Firing_Rocket_Launcher.png)
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How about a master trait that prevents items from getting wasted on rocket impact?
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I really don't want the behavior of the rocket launcher to depend on whether I target an unseen square, a floor tile, or an enemy. Any change belongs on alt-fire.
On traits: since the introduction of classes, there has been an empty space at the bottom of the trait screen. This has always bugged me. I endorse splash damage master traits. And fireangel belongs as a splash damage master trait, not a shotgun one. That's also bugged me.
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OK, it was my stupidity, but without this thread, I wouldn't think of it, so I'll put it here just in case: DON'T TRY TO ROCKETJUMP ON ANGEL OF HUMANITY.
Thank you =)
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I really don't want the behavior of the rocket launcher to depend on whether I target an unseen square, a floor tile, or an enemy. Any change belongs on alt-fire.
On traits: since the introduction of classes, there has been an empty space at the bottom of the trait screen. This has always bugged me. I endorse splash damage master traits. And fireangel belongs as a splash damage master trait, not a shotgun one. That's also bugged me.
Yeah, it always bothered me that Fireangel, which removes the dangers of short-range rocket use and lets you go nuts with rockets, required shottyman. It has nothing to do with shotguns. Reloader makes some sense as a prereq for feeding the launcher, but shottyman? I know fireangel is thought of mostly as a defensive trait for telling splash enemies to fuck off, but I always thought the best part was that you could shoot someone point-blank with a rocket and come out unscratched; it removed most of the danger of happy, prolific rocket use. All you had to worry about was blowing up your spoils.
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hmm, maybe try putting the missile launcher in the room full rockets in the first section of the halls of carnage?
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The problem with rocket launchers is that they're weak, slow, inaccurate, destroy items and have no natural synergy amongst any of the traits -- and to top it off their ammo doesn't stack well at all. I never use them in serious combat situations due to the above. I view the launcher as solely a means of corpse disposal.
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I'm not really sure what the point of rockets destroying items is. It's not the least bit fun. It just makes you not use them if you care about health, ammo, and non-uniques. Same goes for barrel explosions. In my opinion, it would make the game a lot more fun if explosions from these two things did not destroy items.
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And what if rockets would always blow up on the square you are targeting, but on a failed hit roll, it deals half damage and knockback?
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Just made my first rocket jump ever today - saved my ass.
Gotta say, I second this idea about the rocket actually landing where you put it - although it would make it a little OP. The point of the Missile Launcher isn't to be different - it's to be better. You have to fight through the Wall to get it, and the wall at dlevel 7 is pretty hard, even when you cornershoot like a boss...
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well, UV+ wall might be hard indeed, everything less is plain get shotgun/combat shotgun, a shell box, and cornershoot till all them die. You'll have enough time to not to worry about reloading.
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Just made my first rocket jump ever today - saved my ass.
Gotta say, I second this idea about the rocket actually landing where you put it - although it would make it a little OP. The point of the Missile Launcher isn't to be different - it's to be better. You have to fight through the Wall to get it, and the wall at dlevel 7 is pretty hard, even when you cornershoot like a boss...
There is already an item in the game that explodes rockets where you aim them.
As for rocket jumping, I am finding it's downright necessary in UV. I keep spawning in these caves completely surrounded by enemies. In one cave, I had to rocketjump 3 times but it was worth it.
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And what if rockets would always blow up on the square you are targeting, but on a failed hit roll, it deals half damage and knockback?
That's Quake RL, not Doom RL.
Edit: By RL I meant Rocket Launcher, not RogueLike, though the other would still work
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There is already an item in the game that explodes rockets where you aim them.
But not the actual Rocket Launcher, which is what we are discussing. (At least to my knowledge)
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And fireangel belongs as a splash damage master trait, not a shotgun one. That's also bugged me.
History note: It was a splash damage master trait once.
The point of the Missile Launcher isn't to be different - it's to be better.
It already is. Unless there was some nerfing I haven't heard about it has faster reload (or was it fire? anyway one of these) time, 4 rockets in magazine, much higher accuracy.
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The most annoying part of the missile launcher is that it doesn't count as "a rocket launcher" so I can't quick-swap it out using the 7 key. With a full inventory this means I have to drop an item to wield it... which is just a ton more tedium than needs to exist, especially since I'm pulling out a rocket-thrower every two or three kills in order to gib corpses.
A little complaint, I know, but its still enough for me to leave the missile launcher at the Wall. The increased aggravation just isn't worth the improvement in a utility weapon.
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History note: It was a splash damage master trait once.
It already is. Unless there was some nerfing I haven't heard about it has faster reload (or was it fire? anyway one of these) time, 4 rockets in magazine, much higher accuracy.
Just for comparison's sake, what did it grant as a splash damage master trait? I think I recall that it used to increase splash fire damage in 0.9.8??
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Open inventory, tap the letter of the missile launcher. It'll swap the wielded item with missile launcher just fine, no need to drop it. Or just use the prepared slot.
edit: @spacedust - it did what it always did, prevent splash damage. The splash radius increaser you're thinking about is probably firestorm mod.
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I'm not really that fond of rocket launchers usually, with large blast radiuses and low accuracy. If I make up my mind to use one, I usually go for the micro launcher assembly.
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I'm not really sure what the point of rockets destroying items is. It's not the least bit fun. It just makes you not use them if you care about health, ammo, and non-uniques. Same goes for barrel explosions. In my opinion, it would make the game a lot more fun if explosions from these two things did not destroy items.
I find that it's often preferable to blow some stuff up and kill some enemies safely. I only take care not to blow stuff up when level feeling tells me thare's a unique around.
If you don't want to break some eggs, stay out of the kitchen. Or something.
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I only take care not to blow stuff up when level feeling tells me thare's a unique around.
Uniques are indestructible.
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Really? In any case I just realized I wanted to say unique or exotic.
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Exotics don't produce a level feeling though AFAIK.
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I've always viewed rocket launchers (and explosive weapons in general) as the weapon type that starts out really good but gets less effective later on. This isn't representative of the original games from which these weapons came, but it is a characteristic of DoomRL: here we have some powerful equipment that aren't linked to any particular traits, so they start strong but don't last. We could potentially add traits, but to be quite honest, I don't think it's worth dedicating another basic, advanced, and three masters, just so that explosives can be used more often. They already have plenty of good uses and there are already plenty of builds in the game. I'd be more tempted to, for instance, drop Scavenger, move Fireangel to the Technician survival master slot, and come up with a new Technician shotty master.
We can think about tweaking the stats a little (especially when it comes to item destruction) but I don't think generalizing the alt fire to a homing shot is a good balance move: one of the weaknesses of the rocket launcher is that you CAN miss and, since missing can have dangerous effects, you have to be careful about your shots. It's this kind of decision-making that makes the tactical side of the game more interesting and challenging.
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I think rocket launcher is balanced pretty well, except for the fact that sometimes the blast knocks back the enemies and does no damage. That needs to be fixed. The rocket launcher is already pretty accurate and does good damage. Destroying items is a major disadvantage, but it's partially balanced by the ability to destroy corpses and walls. When a pack of archviles and barons spawn together (which they often seem to do), rocket launcher is your friend. I always hold on to a rocket launcher until I get something better like napalm launcher.
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The Rocket Launcher often puts me into some awkward positions, because of its knockback. Sometimes the knockback from the blast causes a monster to be pushed forward by accident, maybe due to very low accuracy. So its mostly by chance.