Chaosforge Forum

DoomRL => Post Mortem => Topic started by: LuckyDee on March 23, 2013, 09:12

Title: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: LuckyDee on March 23, 2013, 09:12
--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (0.9.9.7) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Igor Savin, level 7 Former Human Corporal Scout,
 was electrocuted by a shambler on level 1 of the Deimos base.
 He survived 49758 turns and scored 26903 points.
 He played for 59 minutes and 14 seconds.
 He didn't like it too rough.

 He killed 247 out of 249 hellspawn. (99%)
 He was a real killing machine...
 He was an Angel of Shotgunnery!

 He saved himself 2 times.

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 11
  Levels visited   : 4
  Levels completed : 3

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  UAC Star (bronze cluster)
  Hell Champion Medal

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  .......====########.............######........#.##.......*#
  ......====#########..............####.........#.##........#
  .....====##########..##########...##........../.....##....#
  ....====###==================###..........#####.....##....#
  ...====###====================###......;..#!".#############
  ...===###======================###........#...#===========#
  ...===###=====.....|......=====####...|...#...#===========#
  ...===###====..###....###..====####.......##//#==#######==#
  ...===###====..###....###..====............|.}.==....}.#^=#
  ...===###====..###....###..==|||..........}.[|.==...|}}#^=#
  ...===###====..###....###..====####...[..[##/}#==#######==#
  ...===###=====............=====####...;}..#..|#===========#
  ...===###======================###.....X|}#.|.#===========#
  ...====###====================###........|#...#############
  ....====###==================###..........#####...........#
  .....====##########..##########.|.##........../.....!!.|..#
  ......====#########............}.####.........#........}..#
  .......====########...........}|######BB......#..;.......*#
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 0/50   Experience 16586/7
  ToHit Ranged +0  ToHit Melee +0  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +0

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Scout

    Finesse          (Level 1)
    Hellrunner       (Level 1)
    Reloader         (Level 2)
    Juggler          (Level 1)
    Shottyman        (Level 1)
    Shottyhead       (Level 1)

  Rel->Rel->SM->HR->Fin->Jug->MSh->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   red armor [4/4] (71%)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   double shotgun (10d3)x2 [2/2] (P1)
    [c] [ Boots      ]   steel boots [1/1] (60%) (A)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   tactical shotgun (8d3) [5/5]

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] tristar blaster (4d5)x3 [45/45]
    [b] blue armor [2/2] (81%)
    [c] shotgun shell (x50)
    [d] shotgun shell (x50)
    [e] shotgun shell (x50)
    [f] shotgun shell (x50)
    [g] shotgun shell (x50)
    [h] shotgun shell (x50)
    [i] shotgun shell (x20)
    [j] shotgun shell (x50)
    [k] phase device
    [l] technical mod pack
    [m] Arena Master's Staff
    [n] shell box (x73)
    [o] shell box (x100)

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    Fire       - internal 0%    torso 25%   feet 0%   

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    81 former humans
    37 former sergeants
    14 former captains
    24 imps
    13 demons
    50 lost souls
    12 cacodemons
    2 hell knights
    4 arachnotrons
    5 elite former humans
    2 elite former sergeants
    2 bruiser brothers
    1 Arena Master

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 2 he entered Hell's Arena.
  He left the Arena as a champion!
  On level 5 he stormed the Chained Court.
  He defeated the Hell Arena Master!
  On level 5 he found the Arena Master's Staff!
  On level 7 he marched into the Military Base.
  On level 7 he assembled a tactical shotgun!
  He purified his fellow comrades.
  On level 8 he encountered the Phobos Anomaly.
  On level 9 he entered Deimos Lab.
  On level 9 he finally was electrocuted by a shambler.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 You see : a shambler (mortally wounded) | floor | [ m ]ore
 You are hit! You dodge! Boom!
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : a shambler (mortally wounded) | floor | [ m ]ore
 You dodge!
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : floor
 You are hit! There is a green armor [1/1] (100%) lying here.
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : a shambler (wounded) | floor | [ m ]ore
 There is a green armor [1/1] (100%) lying here.
 You are hit! You dodge! There is a pistol (2d4) [6/6] lying here.
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : a shambler (wounded) | floor | [ m ]ore
 There is a pistol (2d4) [6/6] lying here.
 You are hit! You die!... Press <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 4 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 2 of those were killed.
 And 1 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 1 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 1 killed the bitch and survived.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, so allowed myself 1 more Too Young To Die run to firmly re-establish my grip, and then went on to HNTR with the Angel of Shotgunnery. Nice chance at a shiny new badge, and I like shotguns anyway, so why not. Even though I took several moderate beatings throughout Phobos, it went pretty well, Anomaly was a cakewalk. On Deimos 1 I encounter stairs to the Deimos Lab, and - hungry for experience as I am - I descend.

First impressions: nice new level, nice touch with the teleporters. I can hear Arachnotrons running around, but with a P-modded double shotgun and a tactical (and lotsa cover), I shall know no fear. Right. Until I pull the four levers I find where the Arachnotrons used to live.

Lotsa screaming, and a Shambler appears. "Hmmm", goes I, "I've seen these before, I still have lotsa cover, should be a piece of cake." Then a second one appears. I swallow hard as my sphincter contracts, then quickly decide to roll with it and make use of cover as much as possible, eventually running off of the little island in the acid lake since I got shot into it a couple of times, only speeding my defeat.

Here's the kicker: I had 3 armours, 5 large medpacks and enough shells to arm a moderately sized African country. I could not kill one single shambler. I got one on mortally wounded and got at least 5 more relatively close-ranged shots with the P-modded in and still it refused to die. What the HELL??
These bastards must have taken at least 150 shells, no way did I ever need this much ammo for the Shambler in the 0996 Armory, which I virtually always used to kill in the same fashion: cornershooting with a double shotty.

In hindsight, maybe the Tristar I found would have made a difference (though I seem to recall it packs cells, which I naturally didn't have), but by then I was too flabbergasted to even want to win anymore. It'll be awhile before I'll be pulling those levers again. Poor Igor.
Title: Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: Radagast on March 23, 2013, 10:48
Both the labs are not that easy now as it seems. Armory was a cakewalk indeed in 0.9.9.6 that's certainly true, even on HMP/UV.

Btw I just finished both phobos and deimos lab in UV now.
The nightmare demons in the 1st and the shamblers in the 2nd were indeed a "true" nightmare.
Burned through my blue/red armors and large medpacks like candy.
Tactical shotgun was not good enough to kill 2 of them together.
Wouldn't have made it alive probably was it not for the cateye build and the plasma rifle I ended up using in order to kill those nasty critters fast.
Even then endless amount of corner and radar shooting was needed.
At least intuition2 helps immensely there.

Personal opinion is that the 2 shamblers are indeed going way too overboard for all difficulties below UV, let alone on ITYTD and HNTR.
Up until HMP one shambler is probably enough perhaps have it with some more summons, but a 2nd shambler together? I srsly don't know.

I admit it was a nice surprise though.
I'll think twice before going in there with other builds..
Besides, the place is optional though I did love the nano pack I got in the end, made the reward much more sweet.
Title: Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: LuckyDee on March 23, 2013, 11:42
Besides, the place is optional though I did love the nano pack I got in the end, made the reward much more sweet.

It appears you can still do Deimos Lab (even on YAAM) without dealing with the Shamblers; once you kill the rest, the game indicates the level has been cleared anyhow. The bulk of it is pretty easy experience.

Either you are correct and these are Nightmare Shamblers, or their stats have been severely changed at least when it comes to shrapnel resistance. A defnite nono for AoSh, by my book.
Title: Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: Radagast on March 23, 2013, 12:18
It appears you can still do Deimos Lab (even on YAAM) without dealing with the Shamblers; once you kill the rest, the game indicates the level has been cleared anyhow. The bulk of it is pretty easy experience.

Either you are correct and these are Nightmare Shamblers, or their stats have been severely changed at least when it comes to shrapnel resistance. A defnite nono for AoSh, by my book.

You do lose the uber mod packs which is the final reward though.
I was referring to the nightmare demons in Phobos lab UV. Not the shamblers in Deimos Lab you misunderstood.
I'm pretty sure there is no nightmare version of any boss in this game anyway, at least not on normal runs we play.

The only reason the shamblers seem impossible is completely due to their simultaneous teleports and attacks. They are not more powerful than before imo. (unless their stats were indeed beefed as well though I doubt it)
It's just that 2 together won't let you do any decent corner shooting let alone give you enough time to kill them with a mere shotgun. The layout of the lvl doesn't help much either.
Shambler in armory was also easier since you could hide in small room corners next to the large corridor and keep pushing it behind with knockbacks. Damageless armory was common along with shambler's head badge.
I wonder how someone can do damageless deimos lab now as it is with those 2 meatballs blinking around together.
Title: Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: LuckyDee on March 23, 2013, 14:49
They are not more powerful than before imo. (unless their stats were indeed beefed as well though I doubt it)
It's just that 2 together won't let you do any decent corner shooting let alone give you enough time to kill them with a mere shotgun.

I hope you're right, but like I wrote I had one down to mortally wounded (the other was only at wounded yet), and 5 shots (averageing 32.4 damage each, according to the Wiki) did not put it down. Cross-reference with the page for the shambler: it took 162 damage to not kill a mortally wounded Shambler, which has a total of 100 health in mint condition.

Something smells...
Title: Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: Isasaur on March 23, 2013, 16:41
Possibly a bug? I also got YASD to them shamblers :(
Title: Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: MaiZure on March 23, 2013, 17:02
I've always found that shotguns were nearly useless against the shambles UNLESS you had a double and it was against a wall and you were at melee range. The problem for me is their healing.

I just a UV/AoSh yesterday in the same place with the same status. 5 Medpacks, MAD, and no shamblers killed.

I'd suggest just avoiding it on a shotgun build entirely.
Title: Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on March 23, 2013, 17:07
Um, you guys know that Shamblers regenerate, right? O.o
Title: Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: Isasaur on March 23, 2013, 17:58
Um, you guys know that Shamblers regenerate, right? O.o

know that Shamblers regenerate

Shamblers regenerate

(http://rawrchu.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.jpg?w=245&h=186)
Title: Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: Radagast on March 23, 2013, 18:47
Haha truth is I had completely forgotten.
Never had that much trouble to actually remember it. :S

So solution is try a more-dps build next time. :P
Or do plasma dmg which ignores half armor...
Title: Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: Tormuse on March 23, 2013, 19:03
Congratulations, you have the dubious honour of joining the ranks of people who found that out the hard way!  :D  I'll save you some aggravation and let you know that the same is true of the Lava Elemental. (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,3972.msg32890.html#msg32890)

And yeah, I wouldn't recommend going up against a Shambler with a Shotgun unless you have MAD.  (And certainly not two Shamblers!)  ;)

And I also agree that pitting the player against two Shamblers seems a little...  unbalancing, considering that this level is supposed to be the equivalent to Hell's Armory, especially since the Shamblers teleport in so close to you, with so little cover, whereas in Hell's Armory, the Shambler starts at the opposite end of the map, giving you time to get into a defensible position.  (Disclaimer:  I haven't played the latest version of Deimos Lab yet; I don't know if there have been any changes since the Beta version, so my memory of the level may be different from reality)
Title: Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: MaiZure on March 23, 2013, 19:10
Public release hasn't changed much in the Lab.

I agree that the Lab's finale is more difficult than the Armory for two reasons.

Obvious 1) 2 Shamblers

But more importantly 2) The Lab has a lot less cover to deal with the two shambers where as the Armory is full of choke points and doorways. Rapid builds and pistols are still pretty manageable but shotgun builds suffer. The problem is exaggerated at UV+
Title: Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: LuckyDee on March 23, 2013, 23:11
Um, you guys know that Shamblers regenerate, right? O.o

I did see this on the wiki, but it mentions 1 HP/turn. Still doesn't quite balance the bit of basic math I worked out above (which, I realise didn't even account for the P-mod).
Title: Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: Deathwind on March 24, 2013, 00:36
Did you account for the armor counting double for shrapnel damage and the horrid drop off rate of the double shotgun?
Title: Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: LuckyDee on March 24, 2013, 00:57
No. I know the calculation is a long way off from being correct, but still: a 100 HP monster in a mortally wounded state (so max 20 Health) should not survive 5x2 P-modded shells (average distance of about 3-4 tiles, I guess). It never even hit 'almost dead'.

I'll try a slightly more scientific approach:
At four tiles distance, minimum damage I think amounts to 2x9*0.9^4=11.8, average (P-modded) 2x9x2.5*0.9^4=29.5, max 2x9x4x0.9^4=47.2.
So it took at least 59 damage, had 20 health max, regenerated 10 (for the sake of the argument, 1 per reload and 1 per shot) and never dropped below 11.
That means a minimum shrapnel resistance of, what, 85% (1-9/59)?

EDIT: wanted to look up its armour, since I forgot to include this in the calculation, but most enemy pages on the wiki have been emptied in the last hour or so...
Title: Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: bwross on March 24, 2013, 01:20
I did see this on the wiki, but it mentions 1 HP/turn. Still doesn't quite balance the bit of basic math I worked out above (which, I realise didn't even account for the P-mod).

I think you're over estimating the double shotty's damage. 

As I understand things (and I'm willing to be corrected if I got anything dreadfully wrong here), the gross average for each shell of a P-mod DS is 20 - 2 * distance.  So corner shooting at a range of 2 means that the first shell is expected to do 16, knocking the Shambler back 2, so the second shell only does 12... for 28 average. 

Then the Shambler gets to apply it's 3 AC... double for shrapnel, and double again because there are two shells, so subtract 12... so we're back to 16. 

Then the Shambler has to walk the three/four squares back into position, so we'll just estimate that you'll lose around 3.5 of that progress to regeneration... giving 12.5 damage of progress on average.  Which means you should expect 8 shots to kill a Shambler in this optimal position... except that it also it can be expected to teleport more than once every other shot (2 walks of 3.5, and it teleports about 1 in 6) and regenerate even more, so you should really be prepared to take a few more shots. 

I also notice that you were only firing "relatively close", which suggests that the Shambler might have been 4 or even 5 away on some of those shots, and that 10% damage reduction will strip things further very fast... you might have only been doing half as well as the repeated corner shooting situation presented, if that, on many shots.
Title: Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: AlterAsc on March 24, 2013, 01:51
@LuckyDee
Never underestimate huge DS damage dropoff and the fact that armor is applied twice against shrapnel. Shooting with DS from more than 4-5 tiles is completely useless.

As for the strategy: you could equip shell box, wait until shambler is near wall, and simply shoot him at point-blank(or one tile away from him) and reload until it died. Of course you would constantly get hit, but it's quite reliable method.
Title: Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: bwross on March 24, 2013, 01:59
Yeah, my post was about the optimal, but still defensive position.  If you're willing to stand toe-to-toe with a Shambler with a wall behind it (so there's no knockback), and have a stack of  assorted shotguns to Juggle, that would be the quickest way to take one down.  And when you've got two of them running about, that might actually be advisable.
Title: Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: Ashannar on March 24, 2013, 02:28
I, too, got my butt handed to me by the Shambler duo. Next playthrough I went AoB and completely annihilated them both with a vampyre build in about 5 turns.

I'm sort of disappointed by the huge disconnect between melee and ranged in this fight.
Title: Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: LuckyDee on March 24, 2013, 02:53
Never underestimate huge DS damage dropoff and the fact that armor is applied twice against shrapnel. Shooting with DS from more than 4-5 tiles is completely useless.

Dropoff - according to the wiki - is 10% per tile, so I calculated 0.9^4 for 4 tiles (bear in mind I estimate I averaged 3-4 tiles, so I got a couple of [near] point blank shots in as well). In the worst case it would be 1-0.1*4, though the difference is marginal. Let's assume armour of 3, so 6 against shrapnel.

On average, P-modded double shotgun at 4 tiles, shot 1 would do 9*2.5*(1-0.1*4)-6 = 7.5 damage, (assume knockback 1 tile) shot 2 would do 9*2.5*(1-0.1*5)-6 = 5.25 damage. Rounding off to 13 in total.

Minimum damage at 2 tiles initial distance (and assuming knockback of 2)would be 9*(1-0.1*2)-6 + 9*(1-0.1*4)-6 = 1.2 + 0 = ah.... pathetic. Now this is starting to make sense. Then again, average is 19, maximum is close to 40.

That still spells an unreasonably high shrapnel resistance to me. And this in itself isn't too bad, but paired with regeneration, teleportation, plasma projectiles and in stereo where available... it's a bit steep. At least compared to Hell's Armory and at dlev 9.
Title: Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: AlterAsc on March 24, 2013, 04:00
Quote
shot 1 would do 9*2.5*(1-0.1*4)-6 = 7.5 damage
P-modded DS is 10d3, not 9d4, so:
First shot would do 10*2*0,6 - 6 = 6 dmg, second would deal 20*0,5 - 6 = 4. Whoopping 10 damage.
From range of 6 tiles and more damage is most likely 1.
Title: Re: [M|AoSh|99%|9|YASD] Now _this_ is ridiculous
Post by: LuckyDee on March 24, 2013, 05:08
P-modded DS is 10d3, not 9d4, so:
First shot would do 10*2*0,6 - 6 = 6 dmg, second would deal 20*0,5 - 6 = 4. Whoopping 10 damage.
From range of 6 tiles and more damage is most likely 1.

You're probably right, I didn't check the in-game info; the wiki mentioned 'sides +1' for a P-mod, so I assumed 9D4. I also concede that the damage is far from impressive - nowhere near as good as I thought even, but 5*10 damage should still be enough to kill something with 20 HP instead of not coming close to knocking 10 off...