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DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: horos on January 20, 2017, 02:57

Title: Nightmare advice?
Post by: horos on January 20, 2017, 02:57
Hi everyone. Old returning player, i'm sure there's been quite a few of those, so no need for anything special.

I saw there was a quick questions thread...but I thought the question required a more 'broad' answer then the thread might have given. If that's wrong, please feel free to get me to repost/merge it there, and sorry in advance!

Anyway, I really enjoy playing DoomRL and eagerly await the next version...if indeed there will be one, with all the Jupiter Hell activity. However, I've reached a bit of a lull in my adventures. The maximum difficulty I can reasonably attempt is UV - I don't have a problem with doing challenges on that difficulty, and indeed that's my default setting unless i'm doing a fun run or playing AoB (I could do it, I imagine, but I don't want to be running around throwing knives at a Hell Knight on the first few floors for ages just to get max kill rate. :p). However, I struggle a lot with Nightmare....

Indeed, i've only played around 10 games on nightmare in the past, going back to.. 0.9.9, if my memory serves me correctly. And I remember each time it was utterly frustrating to play - Respawning enemies is one thing, but they also have the 10% speed buff (Or you have a 10% speed penalty, I don't remember which) and on top of that, they spawn even worse then UV.

Now, this could be attributed to my playstyle. I do do a lot of camping and cornershooting with giftdropping (A recent UV game of mine was 594499 turns, and this was even after I got the BFG and the Scythe and practically destroyed the hell levels with berserk and high movespeed), which leaves a pile of corpses stacked on the wall next to me. Now, that's not that bad even if there's a few Archviles around, focus them down first, then go back to gibbing whatever they ressurected, but on N! at low levels when you're armed with a few traits and even fewer methods to clean up corpses besides stacking them, this strategy is completely unviable.

I was hoping to get some advice from some of the more experienced players on how to ease into Nightmare. Ease being a relative term, of course. I've played a few games hoping to get some experience for myself, but have had little success in getting...well, anywhere, really. And i'm really not looking forward to the N! Hellgate, which just looks flat up impossible with nightmare enemies at such a low dlevel...it makes UV Phobos Lab look like a picnic.

As an extension question - how do you complete no damage/speed challenges? Now, obviously you can kite the Angel of Death around the UC - that's no big deal if you have enough movespeed and combat knives (Or you are confident in timing your steps and attacks). And taking on enemies 1v1 damageless is also suitably easy given you have some form of cover or high movespeed. But how are you supposed to do this with multiple enemies?

Now, obviously we can't all be Neo, er, TwoDev, but I don't understand in what way he (and others! Credit where credit is due) performs some of the challenges he does - and in very little time, at that! A recent AoMs YAAM of mine gave me the line " He played for 2 hours, 35 minutes and 8 seconds.", and i'd consider that fairly fast!

In what way do you go about doing challenges like this? Things like the higher level gatekeeper badges, clearing the mortuary without damage, etc.

I understand it is supposed to be difficult, but I don't understand what basic tactics or the method you would go about doing these kinds of things. Having random creatures fireball you out of the blue happens to me more often then not unless I camp - which doesn't work on these kinds of challenges. And the Gatekeeper just seems flat out impossible, given i've never gone to the bruiser brothers without a significant paddling.

Thanks in advance for the advice. It's quite frustrating having worked out how to pick up the Dragonslayer on a recent Ao100 game I completed (No Berserker Armor spawned, unfortunately) and having the feeling of "I worked out a cool secret!" overshadowed by "It takes me over half an hour to get past Phobos Base Entry on Nightmare", so I greatly appreciate it.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Sereg on January 20, 2017, 21:15
Hopefully you'll get input from someone more qualified then myself here, because I suspect you're already well above my skill level when it comes to Nightmare challenges. The only method I've had success with is the one named in my honor - Sereging, whereby one uses (or combines with) Angel of Overconfidence to start the game in Hell, and relies on the starting items, luck, and a holy hell of a lot of attempts to complete the challenge.

While effective for some challenges, it provides very little help for things like clearing the Hellgate or handling the early levels for challenges that don't permit AoOC.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: horos on January 20, 2017, 21:53
Quote
because I suspect you're already well above my skill level when it comes to Nightmare challenges.

Haha, no way. I tried playing a bunch of N! AoB games to grab all the berserk packs in the CC and run through to UC for the...platinum? Badge, and didn't get any further then around dlevel 4 with maybe 30-40% kills at best. :p As I said, i'm just completely incompatible with Nightmare, seemingly. The best I had was when I had a few levels of Brute and just camped next to a doorway waiting for all the imps/formers to come and smacking them there, but then a HK appeared, and I was already tired and low on health kits... YASD right there.

Thanks for the advice on "sereging", Sereg! I'll give it a go for doing a few challenges to rank up, and with a bit of RNG it should be pretty smooth sailing. However, relying on "luck and a lot of attempts" is actually the opposite of what I wanted to do - I can do UV runs with a great deal of consistency (Well, except AoB - I haven't tried because kiting Hell Knights around a corner/container is a tad boring and risky with my skill level), and I wanted to move into N! with the same goal - to achieve consistent results. Only the most horrid RNG situations (or a few impatient keyclicks leading to pistolwhipping a shambler...) tend to mess me around, and that's where i'd like to get to on N!.

Thanks for your reply though! I'll go give it a shot when I next get some spare time.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Thomas on January 21, 2017, 02:24
30 to 40% kills would be fine (perhaps even too low) if you were using guns, but it's way too high for the first few levels of N! AoB. You should play N! AoB as a scout (for stair sense) and never fight anything between dlvl 2 and 5 unless you have a really good reason to.

You won't be able to get to the chained court consistantly on N! AoB no matter how good you are - Longinus Platinum is far easier on a standard N! game. This is because the N! strategy that works best in my experience is picking melee traits and using shotguns/explosives. Berserker is the most powerful trait in the game, and in the second half of the game it will be proccing so frequently that you'll naturally transition towards wanting to use the chainsaw or spear even though you have guns.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: horos on January 21, 2017, 07:01
Hi Thomas! Thanks for the advice. I gave an attempt at Longinus Platinum a go following what you said! Here's the mortem.

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (0.9.9.7) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 horos, level 6 Hell Baron 2nd Lieutenant Marine,
 was eaten alive by a nightmare demon at the Hellgate.
 He survived 14715 turns and scored 79252 points.
 He played for 30 minutes and 1 second.
 He opposed the Nightmare!

 He killed 210 out of 289 hellspawn. (72%)

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 11
  Levels visited   : 1
  Levels completed : 0

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  None

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  #################################.................#########
  #################################..................######..
  ########...............i.....####...................###....
  ########.O......i..........O.####...................#......
  ########.....................####...................#......
  #..||..#.....................#......................#......
  #......#..........c..........#......................#......
  #......#............ccc......#......................#......
  #....../.............X.......+......................#......
  #......#............ccc......#......................#......
  #......#..........c..........#......................#......
  #..||.^#.....................#......................#......
  ########.........i...........####...................#......
  ########.......O.......i.....####...................#......
  ########.................O...####...................###....
  #################################..................######..
  #################################.................#########
  ###########################################################
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 0/60   Experience 11004/6
  ToHit Ranged +0  ToHit Melee +4  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +6

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Marine

    Brute            (Level 2)
    Berserker        (Level 1)
    Badass           (Level 2)
    Vampyre          (Level 1)

  Bru->Bru->Ber->Bad->Bad->MVm->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   red armor [2/4] (45%)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   chainsaw (4d6)
    [c] [ Boots      ]   protective boots [2/2] (100%)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   shotgun (8d3) [1/1]

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] pistol (2d4) [6/6]
    [b] green armor [1/1] (100%)
    [c] combat knife (2d5)
    [d] 10mm ammo (x32)
    [e] shotgun shell (x50)
    [f] shotgun shell (x50)
    [g] shotgun shell (x32)
    [h] small med-pack
    [i] small med-pack
    [j] large med-pack
    [k] large med-pack
    [l] power mod pack
    [m] technical mod pack
    [n] steel boots [1/1] (100%)

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    Acid       - internal 0%    torso 0%    feet 25% 
    Fire       - internal 0%    torso 12%   feet 0%   

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    44 former humans
    14 former sergeants
    15 former captains
    71 imps
    7 demons
    38 lost souls
    9 cacodemons
    4 hell knights
    6 barons of hell
    2 pain elementals

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 5 he stormed the Chained Court.
  On level 8 he encountered the Phobos Anomaly.
  On level 8 he finally was eaten alive by a nightmare demon.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 There is a red armor [4/4] (100%) lying here.
 There is a red armor [4/4] (100%) lying here.
 You equip a red armor [4/4] (100%) from the ground.
 There is a Large Health Globe lying here.
 You feel like new!
 You open the door.
 Suddenly the walls lower! You dodge! You dodge! You are hit! You are hit! You
 dodge! You dodge! You dodge! The missile hits the nightmare demon. The
 missile hits the nightmare demon.
 You dodge! The missile hits the nightmare demon. The missile hits the
 nightmare demon. You dodge! The missile hits the nightmare imp.
 You hit the nightmare demon. You dodge! The missile hits the nightmare demon.
 You dodge! The missile hits the nightmare demon. The missile hits the
 nightmare demon. The nightmare demon hits you. The nightmare demon hits you.
 The nightmare demon hits you. The nightmare demon hits you. Your red armor is
 damaged! You die!... Press <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 34 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 23 of those were killed.
 And 2 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 9 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 5 killed the bitch and survived.
 4 showed that it can outsmart Hell itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I tried my best - and was doing well, I berserked from the CC right up until the stairs of the hellgate. I wanted to try and get a lucky proc off one of the demons, but...well, as you can see...

Code: [Select]
You hit the nightmare demon. You dodge! The missile hits the nightmare demon.
 You dodge! The missile hits the nightmare demon. The missile hits the
 nightmare demon. The nightmare demon hits you. The nightmare demon hits you.
 The nightmare demon hits you. The nightmare demon hits you. Your red armor is
 damaged! You die!... Press <Enter>...

I kinda just died in one turn. How do people complete this level on N!, let alone damageless? Phase device abuse? What happens if you don't encounter one?

I tried to go as quick as I could through the levels, but the enemies are a lot more accurate and unforgiving then UV.

It's hard to pick one thing from just a mortem - i tried to gib corpses in explosions, in fluids and doors as much as possible, for example - but any advice here?
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: ZicherCZ on January 21, 2017, 08:57
IMHO, you might have done better if you switched tactics to running and ran back to the left entrance. Running lowers enemy accuracy and increases you speed, so even if you would probably take a few bites, you could make it there. And once there, you could at least face the demons one at a time, instead of being surrounded by six of them ...
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Tormuse on January 21, 2017, 13:22
I have to go to work in a moment, but very briefly...

Now, obviously we can't all be Neo, er, TwoDev, but I don't understand in what way he (and others! Credit where credit is due) performs some of the challenges he does - and in very little time, at that!

I think it's best not to try to make sense of 2Dev's games; they don't make sense to anyone else either.  :P

I kinda just died in one turn. How do people complete this level on N!, let alone damageless? Phase device abuse? What happens if you don't encounter one?


I don't think it's possible to do it damageless without a lucky phase device or invulnerability.  You can reduce the damage a lot by rocket-jumping out of the ambush, but that strategy depends on you having completed Hell's Arena, so it wouldn't have helped you in this case.

Other than that, lots of corner-shooting, radar-shooting, and generally shooting enemies outside of their visual range so they don't get a chance to shoot you.  I recorded myself doing this not too long ago; you can see it at the beginning of this video. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6pJefznL0I)  (Ultra-Violence difficulty, but you get the idea)

More later; gotta go!
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: horos on January 21, 2017, 17:13
Thank you both so much for your responses! Everything helps me puzzle it out a little more. I appreciate it a lot!

IMHO, you might have done better if you switched tactics to running and ran back to the left entrance. Running lowers enemy accuracy and increases you speed, so even if you would probably take a few bites, you could make it there. And once there, you could at least face the demons one at a time, instead of being surrounded by six of them ...

I see! I was going to do just that - and use a large medikit - after I procced a berserk, but...well, you can see how that ended up. :p

I know when surrounded by enemies like that i've had YASDs result from the time it takes to change tactics, and I suppose what was going through my mind was "I don't want to risk it"? I'm not sure. But if I get that far again, i'll definitely give that strategy a try!


I think it's best not to try to make sense of 2Dev's games; they don't make sense to anyone else either.  :P

Haha, that's fair enough! I'm curious to know *how* he does it, but i'll take what I can get!

Quote
I don't think it's possible to do it damageless without a lucky phase device or invulnerability.  You can reduce the damage a lot by rocket-jumping out of the ambush, but that strategy depends on you having completed Hell's Arena, so it wouldn't have helped you in this case.

Ahh, yes! The rocket jump! Why didn't I think of that...? (I suppose i've never had need to use it before, so...)

That's a brilliant idea that should help with a lot more consistency. Thanks!

I suppose you can get lucky finding a rocket launcher before the hellgate, too, but if you *need* a Phase device or a Rocket Launcher to clear it on N!...well. :p

Quote
Other than that, lots of corner-shooting, radar-shooting, and generally shooting enemies outside of their visual range so they don't get a chance to shoot you.  I recorded myself doing this not too long ago; you can see it at the beginning of this video. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6pJefznL0I)  (Ultra-Violence difficulty, but you get the idea)

Wow, that was one lucky phase device, damn!

That's the kind of strategy that I tend to use on ultra violence - and it works great. (Mind you, i'm a tad more slow about it :p) It tends to not work on N!, for me, I find, since in the time that it's taken for me to scout/damage mobs at range (With the 2x armour applied, and damage falloff at range on shotguns) that ones i've killed recently in the area have respawned. I'm not sure if there's a formula to the respawning of if i've just been really unlucky with times; On that mortem I posted earlier I actually spent a few turns waiting outside the base entry to try and stack corpses in the door, and around 5-10 wait turns after I killed him last, one sergeant I missed that was chilling out above me would respawn.

It not working for me in N! - and perhaps i'm just doing it wrong, haha - is the premise behind the topic, after all!

Quote
More later; gotta go!

Don't feel obligated to reply! I appreciate the advice of course, but work takes priority!

-----------

One thing i've gained from the replies so far is that N! Games seem to depend on RNG factors - or massive feats of skill (Getting the RL from N! HA to do the hellgate, for example) to be completed with any amount of consistency. Is that correct? (Obviously skill helps, but i'm talking about doing very ~diamond level stuff on a regular basis to...essentially consistantly complete a ~platinum level standard win.)
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Thomas on January 21, 2017, 22:01
Here's some more information about Berserker:
The way Berserker works is pretty consistant - the effect lasts for 20 turns and if you melee attack four times in a row you will definitely go berserk. Sometimes it's less than four, which depends on how many enemies are in LOS, I think. This effect will help out if you climb down stairs and end up right next to a big enemy or a large group of them.

But the other way it can proc is by taking heavy damage in a single hit. If you take one third of your maximum HP in damage (lower bounded to 10, if your max HP is below 30) then you certainly go berserk and, not only that, but you retroactively get the 60% damage reduction from being berserk applied to the attack that did the heavy damage to you. This is supremely useful when fighting arch-viles and the cyberdemon, because their powerful attacks usually* trigger this.

No enemy in the inital dlvl 8 ambush on N! can do that much damage in one hit. You don't have enough time to attack four times, either. Also, that fight's dangerous as heck even if you are already berserk! You have to find a way to run through it - I try to keep the very long berserk effect from CC going all the way to dlvl 8 to help out with that.

Basically, Berserker's fantastic if you're facing down the right kind of enemy, but just because you have it doesn't mean you can wade in to melee and get your free win in a big brawl - I mean, you figured that out last game.

*Important cutoffs:
50 max HP - Cyberdemon and AoD melee (usually), Cyberdemon rockets (very usually), Arch-Vile explosion (always). Other late-game enemies might trigger it if you're lucky.
60 max HP - Cyberdemon rockets (half of the time), Arch-Vile explosion (always)
70 max HP - Cyberdemon rockets (possibly)

AoHu - Pretty much any non rapid-fire attack. Cacodemons and hell knights usually won't, making them pretty dangerous!

EDIT: Napalm barrels do more damage than the cyberdemon - they will always make you go berserk even with 60 HP. Acid barrels do equal damage to the cyberdemon, so they're great too. Stand next to them.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Minaro on January 21, 2017, 22:21
I haven't managed a lot of success on N! runs thus far, my best run was when I was away from home over the holidays, and I had to cut that run short somewhere near Hell because I had to go back home. I'll give you a few tips from what I've personally gathered though.

1) Fight most enemies in melee early on, if you can. Most enemies will deal less damage to you with their melee attacks compared to their ranged attacks (especially all kinds of Formers and Arachnotrons), and you don't need to deal with the splash damage. On other difficulty levels it isn't as true (except for Formers and spiders) due to the fact that below UV, they have less accuracy and are less likely to hit you at range.
On top of that there's the fact that N! gives them +50% attack chance, meaning they'll spend less time just moving and more time actually shooting at you. A drawback of moving into melee on lower difficulties is the fact that they'll be attacking you every action they take regardless of their attack chance, but on N! they usually do that anyway.
So if you're herding enemies into a doorway to prevent corpses from spawning then move up into melee range before attacking them.. unless you're confident you can kill them in one more shot. This obviously doesn't apply to Demons, and is situational for Imps since their melee damage output almost matches their ranged one. Also be careful if you're using a shotgun, since the knockback and your position could just knock them out of the doorway instead. This tip is a lot more prevelant on AoD runs though, since waiting for enemies to show up is safer normally. On AoD (unless you have Cateye) you can't really afford to stand around anywhere open while skipping turns, since the enemies will see you before you see them. (I'm mentioning this because I'm doing a N! AoD run myself atm)

2) Abuse Imps if you've managed to kill something important early on and can't find a readily available way of getting rid of the corpse. Imps tend to be plentiful on earlier levels and you generally don't want that Knight/Baron/Cacodemon respawning. Letting an Imp fire at you to get rid of the corpse can hurt a lot less than risking that thing respawning. If you killed it near a wall or something similar you might not even need to get hit - you might be able to dodge to have him splash the corpse anyway.


There are a lot of other general things I could mention, but from what you've told me it sounds like you've got a good grasp of most of it. I thought I'd move onto some points specifically for the Hellgate;

*Switching to the running tactic only takes 0.1 seconds of in-game time. Most of the time, your enemies won't be able to act during that time.
*Switching from running to tired manually is instant.
*Next time you play through the Hellgate, take note of the x-position you trigger the walls dropping - you can activate your running action on the step before that and already be running when the walls drop.
*No matter what build you're using, run towards the entrance. I doubt there's any builds (unless you've been abnormally lucky) that are equipped to handle those enemies in the open. You'll die before you have a chance to go Berserk for Berserk-builds. Malicious Blades builds would have a better chance but would still get hammered by the Cacos and Imps, but might be able to do it with enough Med Kits.
*If possible, have some knockback resistance handy - I'd prioritize getting a Technical mod onto your boots over Tactical Boots in this situation, since getting knocked back by the Cacos/Imps while running towards cover is devastating.
*Related to the previous point, any build that doesn't have a lot of Hellrunner will likely have little chance reaching the entrance before you die without knockback resistance, rocket jumping and/or luck.
*Remotely related to the previous point, the fastest and safest way of getting back to the entrance is probably rocket jumping, if available.

Probably forgot a few points, but that should cover most of what I know. Good luck getting past the Hellgate, in my opinion it's the biggest hurdle on N! - on the run I did get past it everything felt a lot easier afterwards. Stay away from the Mortuary/Limbo unless you're really confident though... Or found an Invulnerability+Nuke.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: horos on January 22, 2017, 00:00
Woah! Didn't expect 2 replies so quickly, haha.

Here's some more information about Berserker:
The way Berserker works is pretty consistant - the effect lasts for 20 turns and if you melee attack four times in a row you will definitely go berserk. Sometimes it's less than four, which depends on how many enemies are in LOS, I think. This effect will help out if you climb down stairs and end up right next to a big enemy or a large group of them.

This is amazingly helpful. I knew about the large damage proc of berserk - but not specific numbers, and the fact that it lasts 20 turns (This doesn't get a bonus on N! or such to like, 30 actions or what have you, right?) and procs after 4 attacks - even low damage ones - is really valuable. There were a few times I could have picked up an easy berserk, but didn't. I can do it over now!

Quote
I try to keep the very long berserk effect from CC going all the way to dlvl 8 to help out with that.

Ahh, yeah. That's helpful on scout builds, but I find trying to find the stairs on tech/marine builds very difficult, especially if I get a bunch of rooms level or a maze. I'm not sure if there's a method to how stairs are generated; else i'll chalk that one up to bad luck. :p

That does give me a question - how do more berserk packs/berserker procs stack with a berserk effect already in progress? Linearly? Or is there a cap?

I haven't managed a lot of success on N! runs thus far, my best run was when I was away from home over the holidays, and I had to cut that run short somewhere near Hell because I had to go back home. I'll give you a few tips from what I've personally gathered though.

Thanks a bunch! I try to get in melee where possible, but often times i'm spawned in a large space with enemies all around me :p

I appreciate the tip about using imps to gib corpses - that's not a bad idea! I'm so focused on trying to avoid taking damage i'm not thinking about potential damage.

And finally, thanks for your wishes of good luck. I'm going to need it...

Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: ZicherCZ on January 22, 2017, 00:26
That does give me a question - how do more berserk packs/berserker procs stack with a berserk effect already in progress? Linearly? Or is there a cap?
Well, procs from Berserker trait scale down with the number of turns you already have on your berserk counter (the more turns from previous procs remain, the less you gain from the next proc), and is hard-capped at 100 turns. See here: https://drl.chaosforge.org/wiki/Traits#Berserker (https://drl.chaosforge.org/wiki/Traits#Berserker)
Berserk pack grants 50 turns (+25% if you are a N! Marine, +50% for lower-difficulty Marines). The Wiki gives no indication of scaling or a cap for Berserk packs - a little code-diving would be needed here.

And just by the way, the Wiki (https://drl.chaosforge.org/wiki/DoomRL_Wiki) is a great knowledge base :).
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Thomas on January 22, 2017, 00:44
Yeah, what they said.

I wouldn't bother thinking too hard about the precise turn count, just know that you only get 20 when you start with a Berserker proc instead of a big powerup of The Good Stuff.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Minaro on January 22, 2017, 03:56
It's also important to note that Berserk (and all other similar powerup effects) last for X turns rather than a set amount of time, unlike most other things function in the game. In other words a lategame Son of a Gun build would eat up your powerups very quickly, even if you're not actually using a lot of time. This is especially important if you're ever detonating a timed nuke with an invulnerability sphere active - if you want to be safe, just use the 'Wait' command since it always waits 1 second.

I'm not sure if instant actions count as a turn for them, I'll have to check that out later using Juggler, but I know that even 0.1 second actions use up a full turn.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Sereg on January 22, 2017, 11:49
[...]This is especially important if you're ever detonating a timed nuke with an invulnerability sphere active[...]

Hey, I've done that (https://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6517.msg56932.html#msg56932)!

Yeah, be very careful with nukes, kids.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Sylph on January 22, 2017, 19:35
I'm with you in being an extremely high-turn-count player.
I also hit an absolute wall of difficult getting into nightmare, to a point where I could confidently tackle almost any UV challenges (only pistols, masterless etc), but just found nightmare impossible to progress on.

I then found that the corpse respawning of nightmare happens in 'pulses', and the chance of any individual corpse coming back to live each pulse is related to the time you've spent on the level!

Nightmare is a game mode that mostly lends itself to fast play. 100% runs are a LOT harder than just charging your way through with hellrunner and berserker. Melee builds are also somewhat favoured.

That said, I play almost exclusively on nightmare, and I do it methodically and extremely patiently. Learning enough about corpse disposal and enemy interactions will get you to a point where you can near 50% win rates, but you really have your work cut out for you tactically. You need every trick in the book.


For a starting point, I'd recommend a quick read of the 'corpse disposal' section in my guide here:
http://sylph.me.uk/2%20games/doomrl/DoomRLGuide.txt

I'd also recommend you become very familiar with cornershooting, giftdropping (you already know these), tagging, and standing on corpses. Once you can get away with general combat on a level, you can start devising tactics for special levels. The anomoly, for example, is one I've found easiest by rocket jumping to the *left* (towards the starting room) after the ambush is triggered, fighting until you've led most of the monsters towards you and can't survive in the starting room any longer, and THEN using a phase device. There's much, much less chance of appearing in the middle of a bunch of enemies.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: horos on January 23, 2017, 08:24
Woah, this topic blew up quickly while I was busy!

First, i'd just like to post this here:

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (0.9.9.7) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 horos, level 10 Hell Baron 2nd Lieutenant Scout,
 defeated the Mastermind at the City of Dis.
 He survived 377516 turns and scored 379849 points.
 He played for 56 minutes and 1 second.
 He opposed the Nightmare!

 He killed 473 out of 968 hellspawn. (48%)

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 11
  Levels visited   : 4
  Levels completed : 1

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  Cyberdemon's Head
  UAC Star (bronze cluster)
  UAC Platinum Badge
  Longinus Platinum Badge

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  #########................................##################
  ########...............####...............#################
  #######.......####.....####.....####.......################
  ######........####.....####.....####........###############
  #####.........####.....####.....####.........##############
  ####..........####..............####..........#############
  ###............................................############
  ###....####............................####....############
  ###...&####............................####....############
  ###....####............................####....############
  ###....####...................%........####....############
  ###...........................X................############
  ####..........####..............####..........#############
  #####.........####.....####.....####.........##############
  ######........####.....####.....####........###############
  #######.......####.....####.....####.......################
  ########...............####...............#################
  #########................................##################
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 31/50   Experience 49250/10
  ToHit Ranged +0  ToHit Melee +6  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +9

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Scout

    Hellrunner       (Level 2)
    Brute            (Level 3)
    Berserker        (Level 1)
    Dodgemaster      (Level 1)
    Intuition        (Level 2)
    Blademaster      (Level 1)

  Bru->Bru->Ber->HR->HR->Bru->MBm->Int->DM->Int->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   red armor [4/4] (85%)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   Longinus Spear (8d8)
    [c] [ Boots      ]   protective boots [2/2] (79%)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   shotgun (8d3) [1/1]

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] rocket launcher (6d6) [1/1]
    [b] ballistic vest [1/1] (84%)
    [c] chainsaw (4d7) (P)
    [d] shotgun shell (x28)
    [e] shotgun shell (x50)
    [f] shotgun shell (x50)
    [g] shotgun shell (x50)
    [h] shotgun shell (x50)
    [i] shotgun shell (x50)
    [j] small med-pack
    [k] large med-pack
    [l] large med-pack
    [m] large med-pack
    [n] large med-pack
    [o] large med-pack
    [p] agility mod pack
    [q] steel boots [1/1] (100%)
    [r] shell box (x100)

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    Bullet     - internal 60%   torso 60%   feet 60% 
    Melee      - internal 60%   torso 60%   feet 60% 
    Shrapnel   - internal 60%   torso 60%   feet 60% 
    Acid       - internal 85%   torso 85%   feet 95% 
    Fire       - internal 85%   torso 95%   feet 85% 
    Plasma     - internal 60%   torso 60%   feet 60% 

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    80 former humans
    60 former sergeants
    29 former captains
    121 imps
    29 demons
    53 lost souls
    18 cacodemons
    8 hell knights
    12 barons of hell
    3 arachnotrons
    7 former commandos
    1 pain elemental
    17 mancubi
    9 arch-viles
    3 nightmare imps
    3 nightmare cacodemons
    15 nightmare demons
    2 bruiser brothers
    1 Angel of Death
    1 Cyberdemon
    1 Spider Mastermind

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 2 he entered Hell's Arena.
  He cowardly fled the Arena.
  On level 5 he stormed the Chained Court.
  On level 8 he encountered the Phobos Anomaly.
  Level 12 was a hard nut to crack!
  On level 16 he found the Tower of Babel!
  He left level 17 as soon as possible.
  On level 17 he invaded the Unholy Cathedral!
  On level 17 he found the Longinus Spear!
  He then destroyed the Unholy Cathedral!
  He left level 18 as soon as possible.
  On level 19 he entered the Vaults.
  He came, he saw, but he left.
  On level 21 he stumbled into a nightmare demon cave!
  Then at last he found Dis!
  On level 24 he finally defeated the Mastermind.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You need to
 taste blood!
 You need to taste blood!
 You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You need to
 taste blood!
 You need to taste blood!
 You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You need to
 taste blood!
 You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You're going
 berserk! You need to taste blood!
 You need to taste blood!
 You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You need to
 taste blood!
 You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind dies. Congratulations!
 You defeated the Spider Mastermind! Press <Enter>...
 Next!

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 52 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 36 of those were killed.
 1 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
 And 4 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 11 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 7 killed the bitch and survived.
 4 showed that it can outsmart Hell itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------

So, I managed to finally beat N! for the first time ever! Thanks for all your help, guys. It's not that much of an achievement, really, but it's a start.

I tried not to rely on RNG, and I tried to keep track of turn counts as well. (100 turns for a berserk pack..? Or something around there, and 20 turns off a proc.) I did get pretty lucky with medpack drops at the end, since I was hovering around 3 for most of the game, and once got down to none.

Even when I got to the UC - even though i was invincible through that fight so I didn't waste any HP - the game wasn't won at that point. There were still a lot of really bad spawns (No armour, I picked up that red one on the very last level) where i'd be surrounded by 3 packs of 2xV with loads of sergeants, commandos, and mancubi (I hate those things so much!). So it relied on me trying to be flung around the room while berserk and try to get to the stairs ASAP (and perhaps getting a few kills along the way, if a group of helpless mobs are there and I can proc a berserk off them) using the scout stair sense. I think it would be a lot more difficult as a technician or a marine - being a scout reduced the number of double actions a lot, too.

There was one level - perhaps a hellish city? I'm not quite sure of the level type name - where there were a bunch of rooms surrounded by lava, so I took my time cornershooting and making sure to finish corpses into the lava. This didn't work with Vs very often considering how fast they are (And their melee attack hurts!), but luckily there was only around 5-6 on that level. It was worth it, as I got a nice supercharge and berserk right next to the stairs as my reward.

The anamoly was the most stressful part, for sure. I lost my berserk right before going into it, so I smacked a barrel next to the stairs (and got a proc, thank you Thomas!) and went down. I had the fortune of a phase device - not a rocket launcher - and it took me next to the bruiser brothers. From there it was a simple matter of gibbing them and getting some berserk turns, then going back and killing all the nightmare enemies in the doorway as they came out. Given that I found and used a phase device, i'm not entirely satisfied with how this run went. It feels like a fluke and not a step forward towards consistency.

That said though, a win is a win, no matter how undeserving, and i'm very thankful for all your help!

Quote from: Sylph
Nightmare is a game mode that mostly lends itself to fast play. 100% runs are a LOT harder than just charging your way through with hellrunner and berserker. Melee builds are also somewhat favoured.

That said, I play almost exclusively on nightmare, and I do it methodically and extremely patiently. Learning enough about corpse disposal and enemy interactions will get you to a point where you can near 50% win rates, but you really have your work cut out for you tactically. You need every trick in the book.

I'd also recommend you become very familiar with cornershooting, giftdropping (you already know these), tagging, and standing on corpses. Once you can get away with general combat on a level, you can start devising tactics for special levels. The anomoly, for example, is one I've found easiest by rocket jumping to the *left* (towards the starting room) after the ambush is triggered, fighting until you've led most of the monsters towards you and can't survive in the starting room any longer, and THEN using a phase device. There's much, much less chance of appearing in the middle of a bunch of enemies.

Thanks a ton for this! I'm glad that it's possible to play through N! methodically and patiently, and it's not required to rambo through every time (Er, sorry Sereg...). 50% win rate is consistant enough given that I reset the beginning level, so i'll aim for that - in the very, very long term.

I do have to dash for now, but i'll check out your guide. I gave the first bit a quick look over and it covers stuff in a well written and precise way - perfect for me to show some friends just starting out now. Once again, I appreciate it!
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Minaro on January 23, 2017, 10:38
Just keep in mind that some stuff in her guide seems outdated, but anything related to tactics and mechanics in general is all good. Congratulations on your victory.

I thought I'd ask since I actually remembered, does anyone know what it means when the Mastermind flinches? I mean, mechanically in the game.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: ZicherCZ on January 23, 2017, 13:04
I thought I'd ask since I actually remembered, does anyone know what it means when the Mastermind flinches? I mean, mechanically in the game.
This means that Spidey took a hard enough damage from a single hit, and loses its next action. Note that since her speed is 150%, she can still act before you do, unless you are fast enough yourself.

Quote
... in his guide ...
Make it "in her guide" ;) (you probably couldn't have known, of course).
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Moonshine Fox on January 24, 2017, 01:22
So, I managed to finally beat N! for the first time ever! Thanks for all your help, guys. It's not that much of an achievement, really, but it's a start.
Don't downplay your achievement. Winning on N! is very much an achievement, even if you with your skillevel think it's not.

Me I've personally only beaten it on HMP several times, but never on UV, so I'd say to me winning on N! seems impossible and very much worthy of achievement. ^^

Congratulations!

Also, Sylph, thanks a ton for the guide! I didn't know it existed, and even though some things in there are obviously out of date or downright missing, I did learn a lot from reading it. Especially things that I had a vague idea existed before, but never really understood till now.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Minaro on January 24, 2017, 17:04
This means that Spidey took a hard enough damage from a single hit, and loses its next action. Note that since her speed is 150%, she can still act before you do, unless you are fast enough yourself.
Make it "in her guide" ;) (you probably couldn't have known, of course).
Huh, that's what I would've guessed off the top of my head - though that sounded borderline broken so I didn't really think that was it.

Nah, didn't know. Made a correction :P
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: ZicherCZ on January 24, 2017, 23:56
Huh, that's what I would've guessed off the top of my head - though that sounded borderline broken so I didn't really think that was it.
IMHO, it's only "broken" for builds that can stunlock Spidey (i.e. can make her flinch consistently and fast enough).
The only builds that I can think of are Berserker builds with a chainsword at least (and those have to get in melee range first), and SoG5 Sharpshooters (SoG4 could probably work as well, with something better than a standard pistol, SoG3 would be too slow). Huge-damage weapons need to reload too often to be consistent.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Tormuse on January 25, 2017, 03:29
(Eek!  Lots of replies!  I'll try to keep up!)  :o

One thing i've gained from the replies so far is that N! Games seem to depend on RNG factors - or massive feats of skill (Getting the RL from N! HA to do the hellgate, for example) to be completed with any amount of consistency. Is that correct? (Obviously skill helps, but i'm talking about doing very ~diamond level stuff on a regular basis to...essentially consistantly complete a ~platinum level standard win.)

Yeah, pretty much.  Being highly skilled will usually get you far in N!, but you'll still get screwed over by bad luck from time to time.  I'd say it takes a combination of skill and luck.

The way Berserker works is pretty consistant - the effect lasts for 20 turns and if you melee attack four times in a row you will definitely go berserk. Sometimes it's less than four, which depends on how many enemies are in LOS, I think.

As far as I can tell, LOS has nothing to do with it, and it's always four hits within a certain (short) period of time.  (If it ever took less than four, then it's probably counting an earlier hit that you didn't count)  I seem to recall that the literature for previous versions said that having enemies in your view contributed to the chance of going berserk, but I don't know if that was ever even the case.

This is amazingly helpful. I knew about the large damage proc of berserk - but not specific numbers, and the fact that it lasts 20 turns (This doesn't get a bonus on N! or such to like, 30 actions or what have you, right?) and procs after 4 attacks - even low damage ones - is really valuable...

The hits have to be at least 10 damage to be counted.  This means that if you have Brute 3, every hit will count because you're doing +9 damage, but with Brute 2, hitting with a combat knife has a chance to not do enough damage and fists will never do enough damage.  (Unless you're already berserk)

Hey, I've done that (https://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6517.msg56932.html#msg56932)!

Yeah, be very careful with nukes, kids.

I'm pretty sure everyone has done that at one time or another.  :P

I'm not sure if instant actions count as a turn for them, I'll have to check that out later using Juggler, but I know that even 0.1 second actions use up a full turn.

Any zero time actions don't count as actions for invulnerability/berserk/etc.  You can juggle as much as you want without them running out.  :)

So, I managed to finally beat N! for the first time ever! Thanks for all your help, guys. It's not that much of an achievement, really, but it's a start.

Congrats on your N! win!  :D  And two Platinum badges!  Well done!  :D  And yeah, a Blademaster stair-dive is arguably one of the easier methods of winning a N! game, but still, it's quite an achievement!  :)

Haha, that's fair enough! I'm curious to know *how* he does it, but i'll take what I can get!

I have theories, but nothing I should probably post publicly.  ;)
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: MaiZure on January 25, 2017, 06:54
I have theories, but nothing I should probably post publicly.  ;)

I've still been waiting for an explanation on this one:
https://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6149.msg53679.html#msg53679

Damageless, but...pulled an acid lever on level 3, which is way too early to have boots, env suit, or invulnerability. Or at least it was in that version. Otherwise pulling the lever results in instant damage on that turn

:)

I better shut up before moderators get on me about ataying on topic


Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Tormuse on January 25, 2017, 12:54
I've still been waiting for an explanation on this one:
https://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6149.msg53679.html#msg53679

Damageless, but...pulled an acid lever on level 3, which is way too early to have boots, env suit, or invulnerability. Or at least it was in that version. Otherwise pulling the lever results in instant damage on that turn

:)

I better shut up before moderators get on me about ataying on topic

As you can see in that thread, I wondered about that too.  ;)  He says the lever was next to the stairs and he just flipped it, walked on to the stairs, and waited.  I wasn't even aware it was possible for levers to spawn next to stairs, but what do I know?  :P

And now I have to bite my tongue and stop talking about this because I might get in trouble too.  :P
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Minaro on January 25, 2017, 17:01
IMHO, it's only "broken" for builds that can stunlock Spidey (i.e. can make her flinch consistently and fast enough).
The only builds that I can think of are Berserker builds with a chainsword at least (and those have to get in melee range first), and SoG5 Sharpshooters (SoG4 could probably work as well, with something better than a standard pistol, SoG3 would be too slow). Huge-damage weapons need to reload too often to be consistent.
I don't know, wouldn't basically any melee build with a Ripper be able to pull that off?

Just remembered something else I've been wondering about for a while, how much damage does Lost Souls actually deal? I just remember checking the wiki long ago and upon seeing the numbers there just said "BS". Most likely those numbers are from before the update that changed their AI and stats.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: horos on January 25, 2017, 22:18
Been quite busy, and wow this topic has exploded, haha!

Quote from: Moonshine Fox
Me I've personally only beaten it on HMP several times, but never on UV, so I'd say to me winning on N! seems impossible and very much worthy of achievement. ^^

Good luck on your UV win! I personally found HMP harder then UV. You don't get any of the bonuses (Extra ammo) and Hell Knights, the main obstacle, can be gift dropped and cornershot, whereas from what I remember of HMP it's more lower monsters that spawn, which are more difficult. It's funny what being a camper does to you!

I appreciate the sentiment of your post though, and I would reflect it back at you and say never give up. I'm sure you'll get there and easily become a better player then me in no time.


Quote from: Tormuse
Yeah, pretty much.  Being highly skilled will usually get you far in N!, but you'll still get screwed over by bad luck from time to time.  I'd say it takes a combination of skill and luck.

I see, that's good to know. I feel slightly better then-

Quote
Congrats on your N! win!  :D  And two Platinum badges!  Well done!  :D  And yeah, a Blademaster stair-dive is arguably one of the easier methods of winning a N! game, but still, it's quite an achievement!  :)

Shush! I worked that out! :p

I would have attempted another run but fear of the anomaly is holding me back.

Quote
I have theories, but nothing I should probably post publicly.  ;)

Quote
I better shut up before moderators get on me about ataying on topic

Actually, in my original post I did ask about how people perform stuff like this (and i'm still curious!):

Quote
As an extension question - how do you complete no damage/speed challenges? Now, obviously you can kite the Angel of Death around the UC - that's no big deal if you have enough movespeed and combat knives (Or you are confident in timing your steps and attacks). And taking on enemies 1v1 damageless is also suitably easy given you have some form of cover or high movespeed. But how are you supposed to do this with multiple enemies?

Now, obviously we can't all be Neo, er, TwoDev, but I don't understand in what way he (and others! Credit where credit is due) performs some of the challenges he does - and in very little time, at that! A recent AoMs YAAM of mine gave me the line " He played for 2 hours, 35 minutes and 8 seconds.", and i'd consider that fairly fast!

In what way do you go about doing challenges like this? Things like the higher level gatekeeper badges, clearing the mortuary without damage, etc.

I understand it is supposed to be difficult, but I don't understand what basic tactics or the method you would go about doing these kinds of things. Having random creatures fireball you out of the blue happens to me more often then not unless I camp - which doesn't work on these kinds of challenges. And the Gatekeeper just seems flat out impossible, given i've never gone to the bruiser brothers without a significant paddling.

So I wouldn't really call it off topic, technically. But of course, that's for the mods to decide, even if it is part of the original post!
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: ZicherCZ on January 25, 2017, 23:55
I don't know, wouldn't basically any melee build with a Ripper be able to pull that off?
You're right, even if this means a heavy trait investment for WK2 (2 traits if you're a Technician, 4 if you're not), and a bit of luck with finding the mods.
Quote
Just remembered something else I've been wondering about for a while, how much damage does Lost Souls actually deal? I just remember checking the wiki long ago and upon seeing the numbers there just said "BS". Most likely those numbers are from before the update that changed their AI and stats.
Again you're correct. I updated the Wiki page.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Tormuse on January 26, 2017, 15:40
Actually, in my original post I did ask about how people perform stuff like this (and i'm still curious!):

*Tormuse contemplates how to reply to this*
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Deathwind on January 27, 2017, 00:07
*Tormuse contemplates how to reply to this*
Tormuse, you have videos showing how you do this stuff...
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Tormuse on January 27, 2017, 01:42
Tormuse, you have videos showing how you do this stuff...

Well, yeah, but Horos was asking how 2Dev does what he does...

You know what?  Fuck it.  I'm gonna go ahead and acknowledge the elephant in the room...

2Dev cheats.  There, I said it.

I didn't want to say it for a variety of reasons...  This forum operates by the honour system.  We have to assume that everyone is honest unless proven otherwise, because if we start throwing around accusations, it poisons the atmosphere of sharing in celebration of achievements.  Also, frankly, I didn't want it to seem like I'm being petty or belittling the "competition" or whatever.  (Besides, it's not like I can prove that all of *my* achievements are legitimate)  :P

But I guess I've decided to break my silence on the issue...  partly because this topic is repeatedly asking about it, partly because 2Dev's account has been deactivated for quite some time now, partly because interest in DRL has waned quite a bit in recent years, especially with Jupiter Hell coming closer to coming out, and well, I guess I don't care enough to keep biting my tongue any more.  :P

But I want everyone to know that I don't make this accusation lightly...  A few years ago, someone (privately) requested that I compile a list of reasons for thinking 2Dev might be cheating and I threw together a partial list which I'll copy and paste here:  (I'm sure I can add more to the list by request)

Spoiler: The List (click to show/hide)

So, there you have it.  Of course, I can't prove anything so maybe I've got some backlash coming my way, but maybe this will at least liven up the forums!  :) 

And now that I've probably damned myself by breaking a sacred rule of the forums, I might as well go ahead and say that the way to wield the Dragonslayer is...  *Tormuse is suddenly sucked into an unholy void*
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Moonshine Fox on January 27, 2017, 01:47
And now that I've probably damned myself by breaking a sacred rule of the forums, I might as well go ahead and say that the way to wield the Dragonslayer is...  *Tormuse is suddenly sucked into an unholy void*
I admit that made me giggle loudly. Thanks Tormuse, now everyone at work thinks I'm weirder than they already did.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Sylph on January 27, 2017, 02:31
Just to shoe in - Tormuse is right. For me it was the mortem that claimed that 2Dev cleared the spider lair on angel of purity damageless using only the chainsaw.

More importantly - the seasoned doomrl players kinda 'know one another'. At least in so much as they appreciate strengths and weaknesses as people edge towards the skill ceiling. 2dev has been absolutely absent from strategy discussion, and demonstrates a poor understanding of it they few times he replies.

It's a shame to say, but in posts requesting information I always just say 'ignore 2dev's posts'. The cheating kinda 'poisons the well' of information when the best doomrl players are giving someone advice, but in the back of the newbies mind there's the thought 'surely 2dev knows better'.

Anyway, I don't really enjoy this sidetrack of a very interesting topic, so sorry to have waded in. Just didn't want Tormuse to feel he was the only one - someone needed to say something outside of PMs.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Tormuse on January 27, 2017, 04:31
*Tormuse's voice rings out of an unholy vortex*

THAAAANKS FOR YOUR SUPPOOOOOOOOORT!

*The unholy vortex disappears*
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Moonshine Fox on January 27, 2017, 04:41
*dispells unholy vortex*

I think you're fine, as long as you promise to not finish that sentence you started. Welcome back, Tormuse!
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: horos on January 27, 2017, 04:50
Quote from: Tormuse
I might as well go ahead and say that the way to wield the Dragonslayer is...

As mentioned I do know how to wield the Dragonslayer:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I must thank both you and Sylph though. It was something that did nag me a bit (and consequently prevented me from playing on N! - especially the bit about Nightmare not having a luck factor. I feel like i've gained a lot of confidence just from that to try and grow on my own as a player now and try and develop my own strategies - er, even if the anomaly still terrifies me.

This entire topic has been a blast. As much as things are about to get really busy for me, I appreciate everyone's input, and do hope that it remains a useful resource for people in future :) It's a testament to the community here that I received helpful, meaningful and humorous responses when asking for help and not just generic "git gud" comments, as so much of the internet has degraded into now days. I thank each and every one of you.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Sylph on January 27, 2017, 08:08
It was something that did nag me a bit (and consequently prevented me from playing on N! - especially the bit about Nightmare not having a luck factor.

To add to this - so do other difficulties. I only manage HMP wins maybe 80% of the time, and a similar number for UV. N! Is about maybe 60% if I'm not doing a challenge. The key, for me, is to get enough weapon masteries to adequately dispatch monsters without taking more damage than a level averages in health pickups, and the rest in the *real* defensive trait, which took me long enough to learn is not tough as nails (HR)! ;)

Nightmare is generally a lot harder, but the extra experience points means you get those essential traits a lot earlier, and the powerup duration on nightmare can be really strong. I'd even argue that I find nightmare easier than UV for a Vampyre build.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Tormuse on January 27, 2017, 08:28
*dispells unholy vortex*

I think you're fine, as long as you promise to not finish that sentence you started. Welcome back, Tormuse!

*Tormuse reemerges from the aether*

Thanks, Moonshine, it was really weird in there, like time had no meaning.  Is it still 2017 out here?

And I have to admit that I feel a bit like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders now that I've talked about it publicly.  I guess it was bugging me more than I wanted to admit.  :)

As for further tips, Horos, maybe I can make another recording to further answer your questions?  Is there a particular challenge you'd like to see me do?
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Q2ZOv on January 27, 2017, 09:13
I haven't played for quite some time - you can see in my signature that I played a lot during 0.9.9.6 version and almost didn't play 0.9.9.7 version.


For a starting point, I'd recommend a quick read of the 'corpse disposal' section in my guide here:
http://sylph.me.uk/2%20games/doomrl/DoomRLGuide.txt


     Thats quite a nice guide and covers pretty much everything. I want to add couple of little tips to it that I remember being important. First is that a lot of times you might want to use enemies aoe projectiles to get rid of corpses i.e. you want to get hit on purpose. For example this actually helps a lot in Hell Arena when the round spawn is bad and respawn chances are already high. So you just try to tank that cacodemon hit but destroy the corpse of two other cacodemons or even take a hit from that last baron of hell to stay 1 on 1 with him and stop worrying about other one respawning.

     The second tip is that when dealing with enemies with 100%+ speed on N! if you are trying to wait for them near the door then if you are waiting two tiles away (the closest tile where enemies can't see you from other side) due to speed penalties of N! the enemies will have a decent chance to walk into the doorway and immediately attack you since they can see you now. That can be really punishing in the long term so you often need to consider to stay 1 tile further from doorway(that way they can't attack you from the doorway itself). The downsides of it are of course damage/accuracy reduction due to distance but in many cases it can be quite benefitial (good enough shotgun to 1-shot those imps, good enough accuracy so you won't miss more and most important a chance to react to a situation)


Tormuse
Well you are one hell of a brave man! I was always too scared to say anything on the matter.
Personally I felt that the reason my interest in playing DoomRL faded because my dream of getting all badges died with 0.9.9.7 and some of its ridiculous angelic badges. I felt that those ridiculous requirements were inspired by 2dev achievments.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: AlterAsc on January 27, 2017, 10:02
One way to get used to N! is to try to rush through to the stairs. As you fail and fail, you also learn where you can slow down and kill some enemies/get supplies. Method is kinda dumb, but it worked for me.

Can't advice anything for not taking damage. This was always beyond me.

Edit: oh, and it seems the guide does not promote Malicious Blades master trait enough. It's really good, i swear :)
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Minaro on January 27, 2017, 12:46
Edit: oh, and it seems the guide does not promote Malicious Blades master trait enough. It's really good, i swear :)
I'll agree with that one. While it prevents you from getting Berserker and Tough as Nails, combined with a decent armor or two it will make you practically immortal against anything that isn't Plasma or Acid. In my experience, Spideys tend to be the hardest to deal with since unless you've managed to get a really good base for a Cerberus armor (Onyx :P) or just found a really neat piece of armor you're basically relying on dodge and tactics to avoid damage from them, which is harder because of their low base dodge chance and their rapid fire nature. Commandoes and Captains pose similar problems because they're rapid fire, but tend to be easier to deal with. Barons and Knights tend to be easier in my experience since they're easier to trick into melee range, where they'll deal no damage.. And the fact that unless there's a ton of them you can just dodge into melee range. Just having any kind of Red armor or better makes anything dealing fire damage a pushover, which basically means the only things you fear are inopportune hordes, bad spawns or other factors you have little control over.

I don't think there's any other trait that boosts your survivability as much with a single trait as MB, apart from possibly Cateye in certain challenges. It quickly became a personal favorite of mine.

*Edit* That reminds me, the description of the MB trait on the wiki is incorrect, it gives you 75% Melee resistance. Also, the Vampyre trait description on the wiki is likely correct while the in-game one is incorrect. I'll probably remember a few other things that don't match up, they tend to come back to me at random times.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Sylph on January 27, 2017, 17:21
Edit: oh, and it seems the guide does not promote Malicious Blades master trait enough. It's really good, i swear :)
Most of the guide was written when malicious blades (and classes) wasn't a thing. I think by the time classes and all the new master traits were released, I was already in diamond runs and didn't have much chance to play with MB.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: horos on January 28, 2017, 02:14
As for further tips, Horos, maybe I can make another recording to further answer your questions?  Is there a particular challenge you'd like to see me do?

Given the recent situation I don't really feel the nagging need to get my 'skill' to the demonic/angelic badge level before feeling like i've accomplished anything. So in that regard, the advice i've been given is more then enough - after all, you're still at the mercy of the RNG even as the most experienced player.

If you really wanted to record something, perhaps a guide to all of the special levels. I know the two that people I show/get to play the game and seem to have trouble with the most on lower difficulties are Hell's Arena and Phobos Lab, so if you wanted to record something in a general case perhaps those two on N! would be great. As for me? Definitely Hell's Arena and the Anomaly on N! are the hardest (Well, considering you have to go through the latter every run, it feels like a chore without a rocket or a lucky phase device). Please don't feel obligated to do so, though - i'd rather an effort like a recording go towards helping out the community at large rather then just myself. I do appreciate the thought a lot though - you're very kind.

Quote
Malicious Blades

I've see this recommended a lot, actually. Is losing Berserker really worth it? I've personally *never* taken a build with it. It has some great utility clearly, (does the 50% resistance give you less knockback vs sergeants?) especially versus arch-viles, but you lose the great perks that come with berserking. I'll keep an open mind, but could someone detail the benefits for me? Seems like in the cases where i'd appreciate the damage resistance i'd rather take a big hit and go berserk and then smack everything up.

Quote
Vampyre

I've used this a lot in lower difficulties for fun but because it blocks hellrunner (A trait that I find quite important on UV - and consequently N!) i've never considered taking it in a serious game on a higher difficulty. Is it worth taking? How do you adapt to the slower movespeed, especially on N! (Assuming it's worth taking, that is)

Thanks again, all. I already mentioned this, but seeing the friendly discussion here really puts a smile on my face.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Sylph on January 28, 2017, 04:13
Vampyre:
I've used this a lot in lower difficulties for fun but because it blocks hellrunner (A trait that I find quite important on UV - and consequently N!) i've never considered taking it in a serious game on a higher difficulty. Is it worth taking? How do you adapt to the slower movespeed, especially on N! (Assuming it's worth taking, that is)

You leech health from respawning enemies. :P
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Minaro on January 28, 2017, 04:19
I've see this recommended a lot, actually. Is losing Berserker really worth it? I've personally *never* taken a build with it. It has some great utility clearly, (does the 50% resistance give you less knockback vs sergeants?) especially versus arch-viles, but you lose the great perks that come with berserking. I'll keep an open mind, but could someone detail the benefits for me? Seems like in the cases where i'd appreciate the damage resistance i'd rather take a big hit and go berserk and then smack everything up.
The biggest problem with Berserk is the lack of flexibility, and how screwed you are if you end up in a bad spot. Berserk will never proc from the attacks of most enemies, and even some that may often have to roll in the higher ranges to cause you to go berserk. This problem is even bigger for Marines with their higher health pool (they need a 20 damage hit instead of 16 to go Berserk). Out of all the regular enemies only Barons, Revenants, Mancubuses and Arch-Viles are able to make you go berserk. Out of those the only reliable source is the Arch-Vile, who is guaranteed to make you go berserk unless you increase your maximum health above 60. All the others have an average damage below the threshhold, the baron being the worst case (they do 4-20 damage).

Arachnotrons are often among the worst for any berserk build. They hit hard, their damage can only be significantly reduced by already being berserk or having very specific armors (or Cerberus assemblies) and their attacks are among the hardest in the game to dodge. On top of that they are very fast. If you actually get into melee range with them they're complete pushovers, but in any other scenario they're one of your worst enemies.

The biggest problem is that Arch-Viles are your only guaranteed source of instant berserk, from any other enemy you could theoretically die before you even go berserk. Going berserk on your own usually requires several enemies within short distance of each other since few enemies can withstand enough damage to let you berserk on just one of them, and during that time you'll be taking the full brunt of any attacks aimed at you. Not to mention that once you actually go berserk it is often difficult to keep it running since you'll one-shot most enemies.

MB basically loses out on Acid and Plasma resistance aswell as the double damage and speed boost of being berserk. They also need to keep a knife in their secondary slot, but in exchange they get even more melee resistance than the berserk builds, they already get Dodgemaster as one of their requirements and the most important part - it's always active. MB faces a similar weakness that berserk builds do - they dislike Arachnotrons - but in my honest opinion I haven't played any build that enjoys fighting Arachnotrons unless it's on your own terms. Because they miss out on Acid resistance they're also worse at fighting multiple Barons, but they're better at fighting them in melee - in fact, I'd say MB is the best build at fighting in melee range. Even with basic armors few things will be able to do more than a few points of damage at best.
I often make an "early" P-modded Nanofiber red armor and use that until I find an armor and the mods necessary to make something better. It saves inventory space, at most I'll carry a fireproof red armor (or two) in case I run into multiple Mancubuses and the like.

If you would happen to find both an Onyx mod and an Energy-Shielded Vest on a MB run you might aswell just consider yourself immortal - even without a Nano mod to make it a Cybernano armor you'll still be taking minimal damage from anything that isn't rapid-fire or Barons.

An added benefit of MB is also the fact that if you happen to find a berserk pack you'll have the best of both worlds - much like the Energy-Shielded Vest case you might aswell consider yourself immortal while berserking.

To answer your question about knockback, damage resistance does not reduce knockback - you'll want either your boots, armor or traits to make up for that. That holds true for berserk aswell though.

I may be slightly biased towards MB for multiple reasons, but I've tried to be as objective as I can. My opinion is that the biggest strength of MB is the flexibility compared to berserk builds. Berserk builds often have the potential to do better, but they're at greater risk since they have downtime.

As for Vampyre; I'm currently doing an AoD/A100 N! run with a Vampyre build, and the short answer is basically what Sylph said. A longer answer is that you tend to play slightly differently - depending on your supplies and the layout you may play more cautiously than you normally would, but at the same time you always have the equivelent of access to infinite health orbs as long as you're able to set up a relatively safe position to spawnkill something.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Thomas on January 28, 2017, 04:25
If you really wanted to record something, perhaps a guide to all of the special levels.

I'm not very familiar with everyone's Nightmare strategies, but I doubt that many of the special levels on N! are ever worth it even for master players - unless you're going for a badge that requires you to complete one of the harder ones, then it's time to stack corpses and chug health packs. Some of the special levels have specific strategies on UV (like blowing up the Wall in a way condusive to corner-shooting, and out-maneuvering the barons in CC+) but on Nightmare! basically all I have in mind is "which of the following three categories does each special level fall in to"

Can be completed basically just the same as UV:
Carnage, Skulls, Cathedral, that's about it?

Can be ran through without too much fighting or taking damage:
Arena, Lava, Deimos, Armory, etc...

Death trap:
Phobos, CC+, Limbo, etc...
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: AlterAsc on January 28, 2017, 04:32
Taking a big hit and going berserk is only possible if you have 50 hp or less, because basically no attack ever deals 1/3 of 60 hp. So if you take Iro or are Marine, you can get blown to hell and Berserker won't help you. It's a good trait, but defensively it prevents you from taking Iro. Also medium damage hits won't trigger berserk and will deal more damage than big hits.

MMB gives you resistance to melee and fire damage all of the time (provided you wear blade in off-hand ofc). Physical attacks are of no threats ever, and should you wear red armor, fire attacks are harmless too. 
Damage wise you're losing to Berserker, but you don't need to activate it or fear it ever runs out. Also you do not need to use pair of blades, you can use one weapon and only attack with it. I used ripper when i did my only angelic badges run.

Requirements: HR2, DM, Fin, Bru2.
All of those except Bru2 are desirable trais for any character, as there is no such thing as being too fast.

Blocks: TaN, Ber, EE.
TaN loss is negligeble, you get defensive passives that basically reduce damage taken to 1, TaN wouldn't help you more at all. Except against plasma but plasma cuts through half of armor, so Tan would only help you so much. Dodge plasma volles instead, you have HR2(3 later) and DM. Badass would be cool, but just take Iro instead. 
Ber loss is not big either, but defensively you get passives and offensively - you are not limited to melee only attacks, you move fast and shoot fast and you can still rip enemies in melee too, just slower than with Ber.
Not having EE is minor annoyance of a sort. WK can alleviate it just a bit though. I won't comment on Intuition loss, as i've practically never played with it, outside some gimmick challenges.

Also MMB fire protection extends to feet too. Lava diving is still not recommended, but not longer deadly.

tl;dr version:
Pros: big survivability boost all of the time, melee damage output is consistent so you don't play like you're on timer. 4 out of 6 trait requirements you want anyway.
Cons: less damage for pure melee builds, much harder to get MMB on AoB, no EE/Intuition.

Edit:
My opinion on special levels:
For me it's basically either all or nothing. Because they get harder and harder, i'd rather do all of the previous levels for rewards and exp. So for my N! Conqueror run most of the special levels outside of first two and Limbo were a cakewalk as i had very high level character and lots of supplies. My useless advice to win them comes down to "be strong and prepared".
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: ZicherCZ on January 28, 2017, 04:56
That reminds me, the description of the MB trait on the wiki is incorrect, it gives you 75% Melee resistance.
Description fixed on the Wiki.
If you find some other inconstencies, feel free to correct them. If you can't (I believe you can edit the Wiki only with 20+ posts in the forums, or a with Supporter ot higher rank), then ping me and I'll fix that when time permits.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Minaro on January 28, 2017, 05:47
Also MMB fire protection extends to feet too. Lava diving is still not recommended, but not longer deadly.
Right, I completely forgot about that. It's kind of hilarious since I would sometimes find myself taking more damage from wading through acid than lava.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Sylph on January 28, 2017, 06:50
I almost always play N! runs as conquerer. I think the special levels are a really interesting exercise in strategic thought. :(
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Tormuse on January 28, 2017, 20:58
If you really wanted to record something, perhaps a guide to all of the special levels. I know the two that people I show/get to play the game and seem to have trouble with the most on lower difficulties are Hell's Arena and Phobos Lab, so if you wanted to record something in a general case perhaps those two on N! would be great.

Well, I kind of already have a couple videos of me completing Hell's Arena at Nightmare!  They come in two flavours:  Pistols (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMUk4LrVieE) and shotguns. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9NMUeKYq0A)  :D  And if you click the "show more" button on the description, you'll see I included some handy-dandy buttons that navigate to the start of each of the special levels.  I put those in all of my videos for the convenience of anyone who doesn't feel like watching the whole video.  :)  (It contains a link to the Chaosforge thread where I talk about the run too)  The second video also includes Phobos Lab.

Please don't feel obligated to do so, though - i'd rather an effort like a recording go towards helping out the community at large rather then just myself. I do appreciate the thought a lot though - you're very kind.

Awww, well, you're part of the community too, aren't you?  :)  Anyway, I've been looking for ideas of what to record for a while.  The forums have been so quiet lately that I can't tell if anyone has been watching my videos, so I figure if I'm going to go to the effort of making one, it should be something that someone wants to watch.  :)

I've see [Malicious Blades] recommended a lot, actually. Is losing Berserker really worth it? I've personally *never* taken a build with it. It has some great utility clearly, (does the 50% resistance give you less knockback vs sergeants?) especially versus arch-viles, but you lose the great perks that come with berserking. I'll keep an open mind, but could someone detail the benefits for me? Seems like in the cases where i'd appreciate the damage resistance i'd rather take a big hit and go berserk and then smack everything up.

A lot of the benefit of Malicious Blades comes from the Hellrunner and Dodgemaster.  For enemies that fire plasma and acid like Cacodemons, Hell Knights, and Barons, you can go zig-zagging up to them without getting hit and once you're in melee range, you can shred them while only taking one or two points of damage in return.  Arachnotrons might still do a bit of damage, but you'll still be going fast enough to dodge most of it.  (Side note:  I recommend lots of zig-zagging anyway, since it increases chances of dodging; I do it so much in my games that it's long become second nature)

I haven't played any games with MB for a while, but...  *digs through forum archives* ...I have a couple of notable games from previous versions here (https://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,4758.0.html) and here. (https://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,5463.0.html)  (Sorry those were before I started making videos)  :)

And let's not forget that MB lets you wield and hit with two Chainswords at once!  :D  I just love the epicness of that concept.  :D

I've used [Vampyre] a lot in lower difficulties for fun but because it blocks hellrunner (A trait that I find quite important on UV - and consequently N!) i've never considered taking it in a serious game on a higher difficulty. Is it worth taking? How do you adapt to the slower movespeed, especially on N! (Assuming it's worth taking, that is)

You've just brought up my all time favourite trait in DRL!  :D  I've had tons of success with a variety of challenges with a Vampyre build.  :)  It's worth noting that being berserk increases your speed, so the speed penalty isn't as bad as you might think, and at all other times, tactical boots are helpful and so is running.  It's also prudent to take cover and lure enemies over to you whenever possible; getting caught in the open without Hellrunner is not fun with any build.  :|  In short, Vampyre is most definitely worth taking in N! games.  :)  If you need further proof, I have a Vampyre build N! game where I kill everything with my fists here. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uH0cOCgILWM)  :D  (Including completely clearing Phobos Anomaly!)  :)

I'm not very familiar with everyone's Nightmare strategies, but I doubt that many of the special levels on N! are ever worth it even for master players - unless you're going for a badge that requires you to complete one of the harder ones...

Pretty much...  though it's often prudent to at least *try* the special levels so you can get a bit of extra experience.  For the late game of N!, you need all the leveling up your character can get!

Also MMB fire protection extends to feet too. Lava diving is still not recommended, but not longer deadly.

I've always thought this is hilarious!  :D  I guess your character is so skilled at waving knives around that they can deflect the lava away from touching your feet?  How does that work?  :P

I almost always play N! runs as conquerer...

Wow...  I still remember the days when I had no idea it was possible to get Conqueror in N!  How times change, eh?  :)
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Thomas on January 28, 2017, 21:23
I've always thought this is hilarious!  :D  I guess your character is so skilled at waving knives around that they can deflect the lava away from touching your feet?  How does that work?  :P

Knife stilts, my dude.

I almost always play N! runs as conquerer. I think the special levels are a really interesting exercise in strategic thought. :(
Quote
Wow...  I still remember the days when I had no idea it was possible to get Conqueror in N!  How times change, eh?  :)

Indeed. Hearing that it's your preferred way of playing N! is quite surprising and might embolden me to take a crack at it some time. It's a shame that none of the badges/medals really encourage it - over things that are literally impossible, like damageless N!, no less.

Are there any special levels (beyond the ones where corpse management is trivial, like Skulls and Carnage) where you feel that you come out in better shape than you went in with, or is it entirely the desire for Conqueror that makes you do them?
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Minaro on January 28, 2017, 22:52
Are there any special levels (beyond the ones where corpse management is trivial, like Skulls and Carnage) where you feel that you come out in better shape than you went in with, or is it entirely the desire for Conqueror that makes you do them?
Military Base. Just open one of the two middle doors in the starting area, kill the two guards outside, drop a medpack in the doorway and kill them all in melee range. Depending on how patient you are you might risk taking slightly more damage than necessary, but in general you shouldn't take much at all.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: horos on January 29, 2017, 01:03
You leech health from respawning enemies. :P

I sort of thought the lack of HR getting through the early levels would make it difficult, but...

...Yeah, now that I think about it, it sounds downright dirty. Heh.

Quote from: Minaro
The biggest problem with Berserk is the lack of flexibility, and how screwed you are if you end up in a bad spot. Berserk will never proc from the attacks of most enemies, and even some that may often have to roll in the higher ranges to cause you to go berserk.

Ah, this is pretty good stuff. I'm totally not giving it a go on my next run.

However...Wouldn't it be ridiculous on AoB-

tl;dr version:
Pros: big survivability boost all of the time, melee damage output is consistent so you don't play like you're on timer. 4 out of 6 trait requirements you want anyway.
Cons: less damage for pure melee builds, much harder to get MMB on AoB, no EE/Intuition.

Ah. Yeah, thought so.

Although, that brings up an interesting point. See, I always associated Malicious Blades with "Melee Master Traits" - that is, "You're whacking stuff with the nearest available object! Guns are for wusses!". I never considered actually taking it as part of a utility build - and now i'm starting to understand what the technician class offers (over the brute strength of the Marine class and the ability of the Scout class to recover from bad positions). It seems to put you at a disadvantage early game though (Especially with the 10% speed penalty, but that's mitigated where you can take HR) but gives you a unique advantage mid/late game. Just because a trait is labelled as "xyz master trait" doesn't mean it strictly has to be so - and you don't strictly have to fight with one combat style if taking a master trait.

I also had a good chuckle about MMB giving you feet lava protection. That's practical (if nothing else) - I've lost count of the amount of times I end up cursing after having my only path blocked by a quick lava bath (That rockets won't fix).

I almost always play N! runs as conquerer. I think the special levels are a really interesting exercise in strategic thought. :(

Teach me your ways.

Well, I kind of already have a couple videos of me completing Hell's Arena at Nightmare!  They come in two flavours:  Pistols (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMUk4LrVieE) and shotguns. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9NMUeKYq0A)  :D  And if you click the "show more" button on the description, you'll see I included some handy-dandy buttons that navigate to the start of each of the special levels.  I put those in all of my videos for the convenience of anyone who doesn't feel like watching the whole video.  :)  (It contains a link to the Chaosforge thread where I talk about the run too)  The second video also includes Phobos Lab.

Hey, thanks! I took a quick peek (As i'm busy prepping for the start of courses tomorrow...don't tell anyone!) and I never thought of doing CC+ the way you did so (And have always struggled with it). It's helpful not just for corpse management, but you take a lot less damage, too. Now to see if I can actually pull it off (or something similar at least) next run I do - although I might try on UV first. :p

Graphics have spoiled me, i'm surprised I still understood the ASCII!

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Awww, well, you're part of the community too, aren't you?  :)

Ah, I appreciate it! My time's come and gone, though.

Quote
The forums have been so quiet lately that I can't tell if anyone has been watching my videos

Probably because everyone's waiting on Jupiter Hell (And/or hoping quietly for another DoomRL release sometime!)

Quote
Arachnotrons might still do a bit of damage, but you'll still be going fast enough to dodge most of it.

I always do try and sidestep volley-fire enemies like commandos and chaingunners but most of their volleys hit me anyway (Unlike my plasma rifles, which always seem to miss :P). Is this something innate to volley fire and dodge chance?

Quote
And let's not forget that MB lets you wield and hit with two Chainswords at once!  :D

So MMB is basically this?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I can get behind that.

Quote
It's also prudent to take cover and lure enemies over to you whenever possible; getting caught in the open without Hellrunner is not fun with any build.  :|  In short, Vampyre is most definitely worth taking in N! games.  :)

So...A camping skill?

Sounds great. Count me in.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Tormuse on January 29, 2017, 01:24
Knife stilts, my dude.

Malicious Knife Stilts!  :D :D :D

Indeed. Hearing that it's your preferred way of playing N! is quite surprising and might embolden me to take a crack at it some time. It's a shame that none of the badges/medals really encourage it - over things that are literally impossible, like damageless N!, no less.

I agree that playing damageless is a little ridiculous, but there's still Veteran Angelic and Elite Angelic; if you can 100% conquer a N! game, you can get those two.

Are there any special levels (beyond the ones where corpse management is trivial, like Skulls and Carnage) where you feel that you come out in better shape than you went in with, or is it entirely the desire for Conqueror that makes you do them?

If by "better shape" you mean more health, then that eliminates most levels, because they tend not to have a lot of healing sources and the ones that do tend to have some pretty tough opposition.  (Like Mortuary/Limbo)  Other than that, the special levels all provide a certain amount of challenge, so coming out in better shape depends a lot on your skill level; for example, the Wall/Containment Area has no healing and really tough enemies, but unique rewards that I personally find very helpful for my playstyle, (packrat that I am)  :P  so if I feel confident enough with my equipment at the time, I'll give it a try, even though I may lose significant amounts of resources going in.

But as for the "easy" special levels, the basic Chained Court is one.  (And if you're tough enough to take on Hell's Arena, CC+ is comparatively easy)  Possibly Unholy Cathedral if you have Berserker trait?  Vaults can be tricky, but has plenty of cover, assuming you have the means of opening it up, and has huge rewards.  Lava Pits and Mount Erebus could qualify, as long as you have the right equipment (envirosuits or Cerberus boots) and are careful to knock those pesky Revenants into the lava...

Military Base. Just open one of the two middle doors in the starting area, kill the two guards outside, drop a medpack in the doorway and kill them all in melee range. Depending on how patient you are you might risk taking slightly more damage than necessary, but in general you shouldn't take much at all.

Absolutely...  And if you do take damage, there are plenty of healing sources in the crates in the room on the right.  I breathe a sigh of relief every time I get Military Base instead of Phobos Lab.  It is much, much easier.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: AlterAsc on January 29, 2017, 02:17
I've always thought this is hilarious!  :D  I guess your character is so skilled at waving knives around that they can deflect the lava away from touching your feet?  How does that work?  :P
Excuse my leet paint skillz, but just for fun i imagine it works like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Minaro on January 29, 2017, 02:41
I always do try and sidestep volley-fire enemies like commandos and chaingunners but most of their volleys hit me anyway (Unlike my plasma rifles, which always seem to miss :P). Is this something innate to volley fire and dodge chance?
Yes and no. I'd advice you to take a look at Dodging (http://"https://drl.chaosforge.org/wiki/Dodging") on the wiki. Certain kinds of projectiles are easier to dodge than others, and distance plays a part in it aswell. That said, Pistols and Chainguns are among the harder to dodge followed by Arachnotrons and Plasma rifles. Add that to the fact that they fire multiple shots, you're unlikely to dodge everything even when maxed out on Hellrunner unless you're a great distance away from the source. Because of that they tend to be the worst kinds of enemies to run into in an open space (especially Spideys since the others can still be disposed of fairly easily).
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Tormuse on January 29, 2017, 03:08
Excuse my leet paint skillz, but just for fun i imagine it works like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Better than most of my artwork.  :P  I'm still trying to figure out what the brown thing up top is, though.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Thomas on January 29, 2017, 04:06
If by "better shape" you mean more health, then that eliminates most levels

[...]

the Wall/Containment Area has no healing and really tough enemies, but unique rewards that I personally find very helpful for my playstyle.

Well, what I meant was more like the second thing you brought up - you leave with a higher "net worth" than you entered with, even if it's only because you place an extremely high value on the backpack. I usually complete 0-2 special levels in an N! run because I don't need anything they're offering. Heck, even on UV I know I'm in the market for a BFG (if I don't have berserker) so that I don't spend 200 turns killing the cyberdemon but I'll skip a lot of the other late special levels.


In the few N! runs I played today I ended up being pleasantly surprised by the difficulty of Hell's Arena, but there's no way CC+ is worth doing! At least now I can go for a guaranteed rocket launcher and, thus, a new way to get through the Anomaly in one piece.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: AlterAsc on January 29, 2017, 04:23
Better than most of my artwork.  :P  I'm still trying to figure out what the brown thing up top is, though.
Was supposed to be rocket launcher aimed backwards. Alas it seems like i failed.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Sylph on January 29, 2017, 08:11
Are there any special levels (beyond the ones where corpse management is trivial, like Skulls and Carnage) where you feel that you come out in better shape than you went in with, or is it entirely the desire for Conqueror that makes you do them?

Always beneficial:
- Hell's arena (if you're not fussed with conquerer, and health packs are running out, only say 'yes' once... You get a lot of medpack as a reward for an easy level, and you'll have a super-easy chained court!)
- Military base for sure.
- Basic Chained court for sure.
- Hell's armoury for sure
- The wall - pretty basic.
- Containment area - but I use most of the rockets I get there!
- Halls of carnage. BFG nice!
- The lava pits / Mt Erebus - If you have envirosuits or cerb boots, the lava element you get from here is like an extra life.
- Limbo : Not too tricky, and great rewards. The nuclear BFG is just beautiful! <3

Situational:
- Chained court + is close to a deathtrap, but the modpacks and staff are great later on, so it's a 'die now or be strong later', and the extra experience often pushes me into enough experience to get hellrunner in time for phobos lab!
- Phobos lab if you are fast enough to outrun a nightmare demon, if not it's a deathtrap.
- Deimos lab is pretty much always beneficial if it doesn't kill me. There's a very real chance of having hell's armoury or deimos lab make the rest of your run *far* easier. From *any* rare modpack, you can assemble a tower shield, gravity boots, nano(machic) weapon of your choice, plasmatic shotgun, or demolition ammo pistol, and every one of those items it worth risking your life for.
- Unholy Cathedral. This is great for melee characters, and possible for most non-melee character, but certainly not worth it - you will be expending modpacks and maybe even traits specifically to get your character able to, and your reward is a melee weapon and some experience! For ranged characters with juggler I'd not-worth-it . Without juggler it's awful! For melee characters it's incredible.
- The vaults - For about the last 10 runs, the only items I've carried out of the vaults (WITH key) have been ammo boxes. Maybe it's bad luck? The lack of health here makes it situational.


Not worth it
- City of Skulls - Huge ammo drain, and the reward you already collected from the wall! I for one think this level needs a better reward! The skulls are ok for the mortuary, but most BFG owners have other answers.
- Plains of torment - Pretty dangerous but nothing too taxing. Terrible, terrible rewards though. At least this one has supercharge!
- Spider's Lair - Absolute deathtrap. Nice reward (particularly the energy cell pack), but yeah, deathtrap.
- Mortuary - I clear corpses with skulls or the BFG, wait until I'm getting overrun, then homing phase to the nuclear BFG, bunker in the corner until all cover is destroyed, then bunker in the closeby corner until all the cover is destroyed there too. After that, sometimes I manage to clear the level. I die here a lot, certainly more than anywhere else.


(And if you're tough enough to take on Hell's Arena, CC+ is comparatively easy)
Teach me your ways! :P
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Tormuse on January 29, 2017, 09:45
Was supposed to be rocket launcher aimed backwards. Alas it seems like i failed.

Okay, that's what I thought it was.  It was the fact that it was facing backwards that threw me.  :)

Teach me your ways! :P

My ways currently come in two flavours:  Pistols (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMUk4LrVieE) and shotguns! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9NMUeKYq0A)  :D

Seriously, though, I have some answers for that, but I have to go to work now, so more later.  :)
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Moonshine Fox on January 29, 2017, 12:44
City of Skulls is basically only worth if for shotgun builds, as they can "easily" deal with the swarms of Lost Souls. The Mortuary (and Limbo) scare the everliving crap out of me and I don't even play Nightmare :/
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Minaro on January 29, 2017, 13:04
City of Skulls is basically only worth if for shotgun builds, as they can "easily" deal with the swarms of Lost Souls. The Mortuary (and Limbo) scare the everliving crap out of me and I don't even play Nightmare :/
Vampyre builds and MB builds carrying a shotgun can usually deal with City of Skulls.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Sereg on January 29, 2017, 13:51
City of Skulls is basically only worth if for shotgun builds, as they can "easily" deal with the swarms of Lost Souls. The Mortuary (and Limbo) scare the everliving crap out of me and I don't even play Nightmare :/

I'm right there with you... I haven't achieved Explorer, much less Conqueror, on ANY difficulty, to say nothing of N!.

I've been following this thread without really contributing since my initial posts - it's all quite interesting, but way over my head.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: thelaptop on January 29, 2017, 21:29
I'm right there with you... I haven't achieved Explorer, much less Conqueror, on ANY difficulty, to say nothing of N!.

You can't do that while Sereging!  =P
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Tormuse on January 29, 2017, 21:44
Teach me your ways! :P

Okay, so I'm actually kind of surprised that CC+ is on your "situational" list, because in my view, if you're tough enough to complete Hell's Arena, you're definitely tough enough to deal with CC+, so that would be on my "Always Beneficial" list.

CC+ has the following benefits compared to HA:

1) You have more equipment (Including a rocket launcher for disposing of bodies and a chainsaw which is just plain fun)  :)

2) You have more experience (just from being a few levels higher)

3) You have more opportunities for corpse disposal (four doorways and lots of pools of lava, as opposed to Hell's Arena which just has...  a single staircase and every other corpse has to be stacked)

4) You have more healing opportunities (the equivalent of three berserk packs!  And they give you the chance to go on a berserk rampage where you have increased protection and speed!)  :)

5) A majority of the enemies are formers, which are pushovers, taking one or two hits (the Barons and Arena Master are the only real threats there and you have berserk power to help you with them)  :)

The only really significant drawback compared to HA is that if things go wrong, you can't choose when to leave because the exit doesn't open until you've killed everything.  (And for N!, they're all dead at the same time)  Even so, I don't think I've ever played a game where I completed HA, but didn't go into CC+; even if I'm out of med packs, it's okay, because the starting room has three healing sources.  What's not to love?  :)


As for the rest of your list, there are a few tweaks I would make...

Limbo as always beneficial?  Um...  no.  I mean it's nice to be able to knock enemies into the lava, but Limbo has tougher enemies (including Nightmare enemies) to make up for that.  Also, the exits are quite far from the start and you have to do quite a bit of fighting to get to them.  It's a very different fight from the Mortuary, but it's no cakewalk.  It is quite easy to be overwhelmed and I would call this level "situational" at best.

And I would put City of Skulls in the always beneficial category.  Sure, you use up lots of ammo there, but you get a fair bit in return.  As long as you stock up well before you go in there, you should be fine.  Just pace yourself so you don't have to face more than one pain elemental at a time and you shouldn't get too many lost souls ganging up on you.  (And it's worth noting that every single enemy on that level has melee attacks, so it's relatively easy to avoid getting hit; this is the level where I often earn my UAC Gold Star if I haven't earned it by that point in the game)  And you may scoff at the reward, but hatred skulls have massive potential benefit, especially if you use them in Mortuary/Limbo.


Those are the only major changes I would make to your list.  Clearly, we have some different views on some of our strategies, but other than these, I mostly agree.  :)
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Thomas on January 29, 2017, 22:08
I'm right there with you... I haven't achieved Explorer, much less Conqueror, on ANY difficulty, to say nothing of N!.

I've been following this thread without really contributing since my initial posts - it's all quite interesting, but way over my head.

Oh, the mortuary isn't so bad. And conquering is one of the easiest ways to do it too - you'll be prepared for long berserk rampages thanks to UC, and you'll have skulls and a BFG for some large-scale corpse management. Fear has no place in the mortuary, just run right in to the fray and kill everything quickly before too many corpses stand up.

You have more opportunities for corpse disposal (four doorways and lots of pools of lava, as opposed to Hell's Arena which just has...  a single staircase and every other corpse has to be stacked)

Actually, the way I do corpse management in Hell's Arena is probably 60% cacodemon shots*, 20% corpse stacking, 20% "it's just a demon - I'll kill it again if it stands up". I completely forgot that staircases would work!

Quote
And I would put City of Skulls in the always beneficial category[...]

Agreed. If every enemy in the city of skulls was worth 0 experience I would still do it for a blood or hatred skull - it's the least dangerous special level.

EDIT:
*I went back and did a couple more N! arena runs and this is a slight exaggeration - I corpse stack more than I thought I did. But it's really not that hard with how obediant pinky demons are when you have Hellrunner 2.

- Chained court + is close to a deathtrap, but the modpacks and staff are great later on, so it's a 'die now or be strong later', and the extra experience often pushes me into enough experience to get hellrunner in time for phobos lab!

Hm? And here I was getting it in time for Phobos Entry!
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Sereg on January 30, 2017, 00:42
You can't do that while Sereging!  =P

Very true, and perhaps that's part of the reason - my primary playstyle for higher tier badges ignores most(if not all) special levels.

On the other hand, I've still done a fair amount of legit playthroughs, even a few deliberately attempting to earn Explorer if not Conqueror, and can't manage it. Perhaps a bit more persistence is all it would take, but I'm just not tactically proficient enough to deal with the special levels well. My entire playstyle is built around answering the question, "How can I make this require as little effort and thought as possible?"... thus the prevalence of MAc builds, to ignore inventory management, and the Sereging, to ignore the first two thirds of the game.

I admit, it's not a style that lends itself well to... well, just about every DoomRL achievement I *don't* have - which is quite a lot of badges as low as gold and silver, and most of the medals.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Q2ZOv on January 30, 2017, 04:24
Am I the only one with an unresistable urge to clear any of the special levels I encounter unless its is obviously impossible or i had a strategy beforehand that involved skipping specific levels?

if you're tough enough to complete Hell's Arena, you're definitely tough enough to deal with CC+, so that would be on my "Always Beneficial" list.

CC+ can really screw you up though if those barons decide to rush into your room together and also destroy all your berserk packs and chainsaw. Even if you survive the fight you will probably lose too much to make it worth.

- Unholy Cathedral. This is great for melee characters, and possible for most non-melee character, but certainly not worth it - you will be expending modpacks and maybe even traits specifically to get your character able to, and your reward is a melee weapon and some experience! For ranged characters with juggler I'd not-worth-it . Without juggler it's awful! For melee characters it's incredible.
It is indeed too unrewarding for non-melee builds. With all that melee theme of this special level I think that a couple of berserk packs can be added as a reward in the final room both to make the start of next level easier (and so adding incentive to visit UC even if you are not melee) and to give non-melees a chance to use the weapons they can find there!

- Spider's Lair - Absolute deathtrap. Nice reward (particularly the energy cell pack), but yeah, deathtrap.
I'd say that sometimes your build allows you to safely clear it and rewards are really good. I also don't think that it is even that dangerous if your build does not fit very well. You will burn some medpacks yes, but the rewards may be good enough to justify that. I see I forgot it is on depth 14 now.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Moonshine Fox on January 30, 2017, 06:11
Am I the only one with an unresistable urge to clear any of the special levels I encounter unless its is obviously impossible or i had a strategy beforehand that involved skipping specific levels?
Nope, you and me both. I have this irresistable urge to blue every level, even normal ones.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Sylph on January 30, 2017, 08:41
On N! The arena is easy to conquer because of the decent cover. CC+ features *awful* cover. There's nowhere you can pillbox without being attacked from an odd angle, and if you try to stay in the starting room to use the doors and laval as corpse disposal, you have a *huge* chance of losing your chainsaw / berserk packs to a wandering baron (I watched your pistol video thinking about this all the way up until it actually happened). I was well impressed at your victory there, and I think I'm perhaps taking a little too long over it, but my general strategy for the level seems reasonably robust, albeit losing me 6-ish rockets and a couple of medpacks! It's nothing like the arena though - I can almost guarantee completing the arena, the chained court + always feels like it has wildcards, and the modpack/chainsaw reward is nowhere near as important as the rocket launcher (which I require for CC+, phobos lab, and anomaly). I really struggle without the arena rocket launcher, whereas I don't feel things are that different if I skip the CC+.
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Tormuse on January 30, 2017, 11:57
Am I the only one with an unresistable urge to clear any of the special levels I encounter unless its is obviously impossible or i had a strategy beforehand that involved skipping specific levels?

You're definitely not the only one.  :)
Title: Re: Nightmare advice?
Post by: Tormuse on February 04, 2017, 01:35
On N! The arena is easy to conquer because of the decent cover. CC+ features *awful* cover. There's nowhere you can pillbox without being attacked from an odd angle, and if you try to stay in the starting room to use the doors and laval as corpse disposal, you have a *huge* chance of losing your chainsaw / berserk packs to a wandering baron (I watched your pistol video thinking about this all the way up until it actually happened). I was well impressed at your victory there, and I think I'm perhaps taking a little too long over it, but my general strategy for the level seems reasonably robust, albeit losing me 6-ish rockets and a couple of medpacks! It's nothing like the arena though - I can almost guarantee completing the arena, the chained court + always feels like it has wildcards, and the modpack/chainsaw reward is nowhere near as important as the rocket launcher (which I require for CC+, phobos lab, and anomaly). I really struggle without the arena rocket launcher, whereas I don't feel things are that different if I skip the CC+.

(Oops, I forgot to reply to this)  All valid points; In all honesty, when I do CC+, I find myself winging it a lot, but in all my time playing DRL, I've learned to adapt my strategies on the fly, so I come out okay.  :)  But yeah, it would be nice if there was at least a place you could reliably camp without being snuck up on by enemies that ruin everything.  :P