Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: ZicherCZ on February 29, 2012, 05:37
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Is it just me, or was shotgun knockback heavily reduced? I played (and won :) ) my first ITYTD game in 0.996 and knockback did not work half as reliably. Quite a hit for any cornershooting tactics, if you ask me ...
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just won an HNTR with a shottybuild, built me an elephant gun midway, and was happily knockbacking arachnotrons sometimes even two squares away. Corner shooting still works pretty nicely. Maybe you were using combat shotgun, it has inherently lower damage, or a monster had some armor?
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I thought the shotgun knockback wasn't functionning at all when i picked the first shotgun.
After 2 level of the SoB trait, it worked, and the double shotgun i got after was throwing people around, so maybe the knockback is more damage related now.
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I was using my standard first-game MAD build with a normal, unmodded shotgun (I never found a combat shotty - sad, since I had the mods for the tactical one ready).
In 0.995, knockback was reliable from three squares (my usual cornershooting position) against anything up to Barons, and from two squares it was ~100%, allowing me to kill them reliably without them ever seeing me. Not this time though, knockback failed more than it worked.
Might be just my impression, but my usual tactics really took a hit (and so did I many times afterwards) ...
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I can't think of any reason why knockback would have been affected, shotguns or otherwise. Almost none of the enemy stats were changed, nor were there any stat changes to shotgun missiles or weapons. In fact, having played through two games and built a tactical shotgun in both of them, I found it to be one of the more reliable weapons I used BECAUSE of the knockback.
A lot of so-called difficulties could very well stem from the fact that everything (the player as well as all enemies) took a one-tile vision hit. Mostly this has to do with the graphical version, but at the same time I think reducing the sight radius will encourage more off-screen tactics, which are really important when it comes to the more deadly enemies and higher levels of play. However, if anything, shotgun knockback should appear slightly better, since your in-vision shots have to be closer than before.
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Most shotguns give good knockback in 0.996. But I made a nano-shrapnel assault shotgun and it was completely worthless. No knockback at all, and very weak damage.
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after playing a little more I think knockback really gets nerfed, in 0.9.9.5 it was 7 damage/tile, I guess it's now in the line of 10 damage/tile instead, you need two tiles knockback in order to cornershoot a cacodemon/HK/HB safely, now you get only one at point blank.
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I believe it DID get nerfed.
Arena made me go "WTF" several times because of it.
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I believe it DID get nerfed.
Arena made me go "WTF" several times because of it.
This. And not only the Arena, but a lot of other occasions.
I really don't know what can be behind this impression, but my last AoSg _did_ suffer from these troubles as well.
On the other hand, I had little trouble knocking back enemies with other weapons. Maybe it is some shotgun nerf, instead of a knockback nerf?
Really, dunno.
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it can be a shrapnel damage nerf. DOOMRL wiki states that each damage type has its own value of knockback, with plasma and bullet be 1 tile per 12 damage and shrapnel and rocket explosion stated as one tile per 7 damage. Maybe the shrapnel (or shotgun) constant was changed in 0.9.9.6, while it's very hard to determine the actual value from the gameplay, my estimate is 10, as elephant gun seemed to knockback about the same distance as shotgun used to. Of course knockback can be linked not to damage type but to weapon type, which will mean shotgun nerf. Someone please test plasma shotgun behavior with knockback.
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Found it some time ago, there was almost no knockback (it also sucks in general).
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I've looked through the knockback code three times or so and I can't say I see anything that would have affected shotguns in particular. It might be possible that ALL knockback has been affected, in which case the bug is far more subtle to someone who didn't explicitly write the mechanic. Hopefully, in redesigning the knockback code (for a number of bigger fixes), we'll catch any other problems that happen to exist.
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About the plasma shotgun...
is it supposed to gib all corpses it hits? (as in corpse corpses, not enemies that just died)
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No, why would it?
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I noticed this as well. Got pretty much destroyed trying to do the arena on HMP because my shotty wasn't knocking demons back nearly as much as it should have. Noticed it to a lesser extent later on in another run when I ended up using the missile launcher quite a bit. I know it's technically possible to roll low enough that you cause no knockback with a direct missile launcher hit on an arachnotron, but it's pretty damned unlikely, like, lottery ticket unlikely. 1 in 23328 chance I think?
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1/46656 i think.I also noticed either strange rolls or knockback reduction.
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Shotgun EVERYTHING has been reduced. Formers take 3-4 shots sometimes now.
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Shotgun knockback hasn't been reduced. What you think is a reduction in knockback you are probably mistaking as a side effect of the graphics engine being updated. In prior versions, you would see the actual knockback step (you'd see the effect after your turn, and then see their turn after a moment). In this version, 1 space knockback followed by them moving one space toward you will look like nothing happened. All of this sounds like the case of some really bad luck with the random number generator.
If the formers are wearing armor (even green), and you are shooting at medium range, then yes, they could take 3-4 shots. This is normal behavior.
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Part of the problem is that the existing (that is, as of 0.995) knockback method reduced the damage output of exploding weapons that dealt knockback, due to the fact that damage received was determined by where in the explosion they ended up, as opposed to where they were when the explosion started - meaning that if they were thrown out of the blast radius, they hardly took any damage. Big problem for Radius 1 weapons, as exploding weapons don't actually deal impact damage. Technically, this would have also affected shotguns, but with those at least the target is almost always ending up on a tile where they still take damage anyway.